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Open Letter / Request to the PuG Community
bwowmp
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 81 Arc User
A quick caveat. This is a long post. There may be something in here you do not like. If you are going to whine about that, feel free to stop reading now and move along. If you are interested in the state of the game and have an open and inquisitive mind, then read on.
I know this may likely create a S*&@storm, with people chiming in from all fronts. Fine. Fire away. My big-boy pants are on and buttoned up. I only hope to start a healthy discussion, and maybe even to affect some change. My request is a simple one.
Stop the leaving and quitting, people!!! And for those who do not do this...please start giving a really, really hard time to those who do.
I play an Archer HR (yeah...give me hell...I refuse to change to Trapper and love the challenge of constantly honing and refining my skills), so I am used to getting my butt handed to me in PvP. I'm also becoming used to winning a lot as I get better and better. I play lots of Domination, since GG became such a mess a few months ago (was doing so even before NCL). An average Domination match for me these days is 5-10 kills, 6-12 deaths and around 25 assists. I die a lot...part of being a squishy archer. So be it. I am support first and DPS second (sometimes the other way around depending on team composition), and I do a very good job of it when I have engaged and motivated teammates. So this is where I am personally coming from. Overpowered and BiS TRs or CWs may see this very differently. So be it. (yes...stop throwing me around like a rag doll, Debby)
That said...I play PuG, so I am becoming very accustomed to entering an arena, standing around the campfire for a few seconds, watching someone bail out before the gate even goes down, and then preparing to lose. Why? Because someone checked out their team, saw that they were not going to get carried to an easy victory by God-tier teammates, and decided to leave. The "Leaver Penalty" sadly does not seem to deter this behavior.
Yesterday, I PM'ed a teammate who did this in Domination. We actually had a fairly congenial and polite conversation about it. No name-calling or defensiveness. His reasoning? "I don't want to waste my time". So let me get this straight...you have time for a match if you are going to coast to an easy victory, or enter a twenty-minute slug-fest which could go either way, but you don't have 5-10 minutes to get your behind handed to you by a team which is better than you and slaughters you while holding two nodes while you desperately try to take the third? The time is the same. Only the outcome is different. I declare shenanigans!!
It is BS to enter any PvP match and then to bail because you don't have an easy path to victory ahead of you. Likewise it is BS to quit a match halfway through because you are down 200 points and don't think you can win. We all know that this happens all of the time as well. Even if you don't know them or don't care about them, for a brief time, those are your teammates. And you are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them over. How many GG matches wind up with 3-6 people on the losing team by end of match? It's why I have essentially quit running GG.
I played another Domination match yesterday. Me, 2 GF, 1 DC and a CW. All moderately geared. Normally not a particularly easy recipe for victory...especially since opposition had both a TR and a Pally. Teams seemed pretty well matched from the get-go however. Our CW bailed halfway through, because we were down by about 100-150. Oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...there goes the match, right? The GFs and I started communicating well through party chat, and used phenomenal teamwork to pull out a victory by 1 point. Yes...1 point. Best darn PvP match I've had in weeks...incredibly rewarding, and we had a PM love-fest for about five minutes slapping each other on the backs for pulling out an incredible 4v5 win.
If one more teammate had bailed, we never could have done it.
So people...don't quit before you start. Don't give up because you are behind. Don't feel afraid to take a beat-down. It actually makes you a MUCH better player if you stay in matches with opponents who are more skilled and/or better geared than you. No one gets stronger by kicking puppies...you get stronger by wrestling bears. My PvP skills have grown incredibly over the past few months, and mostly by getting my butt kicked. I myself am undergeared (at least until 2xRP today) and well-skilled, and I love nothing better than tying up three opponents for 60 seconds trying to catch and kill me while my teammates take the other two nodes. There can be much honor in dying well!
Okay...maybe I love killing a TR 1v1 a little bit more. Busted.
If you are inclined to quit and leave because things aren't going your way (and you blame matchmaking system, bad teammates, whatever), don't queue up to PuG in the first place. Take your toon to PvE and kill orcs and kobolds to your heart's delight until your fragile ego is fulfilled and you can feel good about the character you are playing and what an amazing skill set you possess. Just be sure to slot your Dragons Hoard enchantment so they will <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out the occasional peridot for you.
And if you are going to play PvP, maybe just quit all the complaining in general? You can replace it with constructive and well-reasoned criticism and polite conversation. I know this is a lot to ask of many folks, but this is a game, and largely a free one at that. It is actually a lot of fun if you stop the grousing, play the cards you are dealt and enjoy the ride. Wind that ego down a notch or two, remind yourself that this is just pretend and all for fun, and I can guarantee you will have a much better time with it.
Just my two cents. Happy slaying, stomping and pillaging to all!!
I know this may likely create a S*&@storm, with people chiming in from all fronts. Fine. Fire away. My big-boy pants are on and buttoned up. I only hope to start a healthy discussion, and maybe even to affect some change. My request is a simple one.
Stop the leaving and quitting, people!!! And for those who do not do this...please start giving a really, really hard time to those who do.
I play an Archer HR (yeah...give me hell...I refuse to change to Trapper and love the challenge of constantly honing and refining my skills), so I am used to getting my butt handed to me in PvP. I'm also becoming used to winning a lot as I get better and better. I play lots of Domination, since GG became such a mess a few months ago (was doing so even before NCL). An average Domination match for me these days is 5-10 kills, 6-12 deaths and around 25 assists. I die a lot...part of being a squishy archer. So be it. I am support first and DPS second (sometimes the other way around depending on team composition), and I do a very good job of it when I have engaged and motivated teammates. So this is where I am personally coming from. Overpowered and BiS TRs or CWs may see this very differently. So be it. (yes...stop throwing me around like a rag doll, Debby)
That said...I play PuG, so I am becoming very accustomed to entering an arena, standing around the campfire for a few seconds, watching someone bail out before the gate even goes down, and then preparing to lose. Why? Because someone checked out their team, saw that they were not going to get carried to an easy victory by God-tier teammates, and decided to leave. The "Leaver Penalty" sadly does not seem to deter this behavior.
Yesterday, I PM'ed a teammate who did this in Domination. We actually had a fairly congenial and polite conversation about it. No name-calling or defensiveness. His reasoning? "I don't want to waste my time". So let me get this straight...you have time for a match if you are going to coast to an easy victory, or enter a twenty-minute slug-fest which could go either way, but you don't have 5-10 minutes to get your behind handed to you by a team which is better than you and slaughters you while holding two nodes while you desperately try to take the third? The time is the same. Only the outcome is different. I declare shenanigans!!
It is BS to enter any PvP match and then to bail because you don't have an easy path to victory ahead of you. Likewise it is BS to quit a match halfway through because you are down 200 points and don't think you can win. We all know that this happens all of the time as well. Even if you don't know them or don't care about them, for a brief time, those are your teammates. And you are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them over. How many GG matches wind up with 3-6 people on the losing team by end of match? It's why I have essentially quit running GG.
I played another Domination match yesterday. Me, 2 GF, 1 DC and a CW. All moderately geared. Normally not a particularly easy recipe for victory...especially since opposition had both a TR and a Pally. Teams seemed pretty well matched from the get-go however. Our CW bailed halfway through, because we were down by about 100-150. Oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...there goes the match, right? The GFs and I started communicating well through party chat, and used phenomenal teamwork to pull out a victory by 1 point. Yes...1 point. Best darn PvP match I've had in weeks...incredibly rewarding, and we had a PM love-fest for about five minutes slapping each other on the backs for pulling out an incredible 4v5 win.
If one more teammate had bailed, we never could have done it.
So people...don't quit before you start. Don't give up because you are behind. Don't feel afraid to take a beat-down. It actually makes you a MUCH better player if you stay in matches with opponents who are more skilled and/or better geared than you. No one gets stronger by kicking puppies...you get stronger by wrestling bears. My PvP skills have grown incredibly over the past few months, and mostly by getting my butt kicked. I myself am undergeared (at least until 2xRP today) and well-skilled, and I love nothing better than tying up three opponents for 60 seconds trying to catch and kill me while my teammates take the other two nodes. There can be much honor in dying well!
Okay...maybe I love killing a TR 1v1 a little bit more. Busted.
If you are inclined to quit and leave because things aren't going your way (and you blame matchmaking system, bad teammates, whatever), don't queue up to PuG in the first place. Take your toon to PvE and kill orcs and kobolds to your heart's delight until your fragile ego is fulfilled and you can feel good about the character you are playing and what an amazing skill set you possess. Just be sure to slot your Dragons Hoard enchantment so they will <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out the occasional peridot for you.
And if you are going to play PvP, maybe just quit all the complaining in general? You can replace it with constructive and well-reasoned criticism and polite conversation. I know this is a lot to ask of many folks, but this is a game, and largely a free one at that. It is actually a lot of fun if you stop the grousing, play the cards you are dealt and enjoy the ride. Wind that ego down a notch or two, remind yourself that this is just pretend and all for fun, and I can guarantee you will have a much better time with it.
Just my two cents. Happy slaying, stomping and pillaging to all!!
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Comments
Play to the end
sometime you win and sometime you lose
That said
Sometime the game freezes you out and people don't quit
Urlord
Another issue is when even before you get the timer countdown for the start someone will drop out, and the match will begin 4v5. That shouldn't happen.
I have come from 500 down to win... in a 5v5... through teamwork.
I have blown another team out with 4 players... to their 5.
I have lost because someone decided to leave in the middle of the game... when we were 450 points ahead. We lost by 2 points.
I have been on a team that dominated so handily that we let the other team cap... because it was the right thing to do. Despite our sitting at the side of 2 they decided to fight instead of cap. They died a lot and got nothing for their time and effort, but a loss.
Anything is doable... I have been part of a team who collected ourselves and won by 40 points... after being down 500. You just have to trust that your teammates know what they are doing... and do your job because they rely on you to know what you are doing. If you don't know what you are doing... follow one person around and pay attention.
These are things I have used to raise myself up from being a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> PvP person... because I hated PvP.
BTW... we all know the difference between a DC and a quit. A dc usually happens in the field... a quit happens at the fire.
Join the Greycloaks
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician
Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
For me, either win or lose, I dont care, never did, but even losing, at least I try to do my best, then see if I can improve my build
And
I play it every day
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Randomness. I can get teamed up with another DC, or an OP, and my team will be unkillable. I can be fighting another DC/OP team and the scores will go 200-200 for 15 minutes with barely anyone dying. Here, someone calls GG, or the scores move 100 up in someone's favor, the match has taken too long--that should absolve you from idling or quitting the match on establishing with all the players that the game is over.
You can inspect your mates, see how fast they die, how much hp they take from enemy before they die, you may know some of the enemies and their gear, etc.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I left him alone after a bit and ran to 3. Capped it no problem. 3 players on the other side were horrible and the TR and CW knew it. We allowed those 2 to cap at 1, while the others chose to keep killing themselves on our weapons.
Our team was not geared as well as my TR is... but they were better geared than the opposition. It took about 5 minutes to figure that one out.
If my team would have based the match on the TR the ganked 1 from us... and decided to leave within 1 minute... the outcome would have been different.
The outcome is never foretold by the immediate actions of individuals.
so before i start yelling, I leave and get 30min penalty, thats ok for me, I have my peace, and it does not hurt the teammates at all, because they can go on playing " catch the TR" and have their fun
This mindset makes me sick. No one left you to flounder when you sucked... and I guarantee you sucked. At some time in PvE and in PvP someone carried your sorry butt. We all suck at the beginning... so have some compassion and understanding for those that suck... because eventually they may be the gods of the game.
the same way it makes me sick reading some of these hypocritical posts
every player who does PVP knows matches like this and I will not take part in posting comments in a thread that make me look like a "holy, all forgiving jesus"
if 3-4 mates in your team run arround like chicken its their choice, my choice is doing something else, it happens rarely but it does and noone can change a thing about it
trying to teech your mates in game that the nodes has to be captured?
I saw lots of player who only care about their Kill-death-ratio instead of trying to win, what is your answer to these player, who stand beside the node watching when you get your but handed 3 vs 1?
to your information , I am one of these player that give a s.hit on his kill-death-ratio and who tries to win the match and not the leaderboard
don´t suck yourself, please, pretending that everything is fine, it is not and my statements to these game is leave the place once a week or twice, bc its better than any discussion, so have a nice day and go on writing nice comments your holyness
The first time I went into a PvP match, one of my teammates pm'ed me at the end of the beating we took and firmly requested of me "Please do not PvP again...ever". I'll never forget it. I felt bad and I felt clueless, and I knew I'd let my teammates down in that match. Probably ticked several people off. I had no idea what was going on. Didn't even know we were supposed to capture and hold nodes. Just thought I was supposed to kill people. I was just running around dealing very minor damage and mostly dying poorly with little to no positive impact on the match. I believe this was in the old level 59 PvP (Mod 5).
If I played with that same teammate today, he'd be stoked to have me on his team. Because I managed to grind my way not just into being fairly well skilled, but also into an understanding of basic strategy, class mechanics, tactical opportunities, etc.
I now have absolutely no problem telling someone in a match where to go, to fight on node, to leave that TR on three and come help with the other two nodes, etc. If they are loitering at the campfire trying to log a match for their daily 4K AD, I will stand in from of them and tell them to get their sorry tail moving and fight for the team.
I get all the rationalizations here for quitting...limited time, frustration, etc. When I began this thread I totally expected to see those exact arguments pop up. But I stand by my original post, and I am firmly in drkbodhi's camp on this topic. I simply cannot justify quitting a match that you have chosen to begin. Key word...chosen. No one forced you to enter that match, and even if they suck, your teammates are counting on you. Perhaps even more so if they are clueless and you are much better than they are.
Maybe I am dense or something, but it seems very simple to me. If you don't have time to finish a match, regardless of the likely outcome, don't screw me or anyone else over by starting and then bailing out because you do not like what you see in the first 60-120 seconds of the match. Walk away and play later when you have the time, or take the loss.
If you don't like the way a match is going, make the best of it for yourself, try to help your clueless teammates, and take the beat-down. It's part of the deal, people!
Perhaps most importantly, if every time you PvP you need a team full of mates who are totally proficient and understand all about strategy (and who also view strategy the same way you do), I strongly believe you should find a guild, only run premade, and not play PuG. Because I play PuG, and if that is your mindset, I do not want you on my team. Key word...TEAM.
I don't know...this just seems like common sense to me. Call me crazy. I've been called worse.
schietindebux...maybe instead of bailing on those clueless teammates who are running around in no man's land, you should actually stay and yell at them. The guy who asked me to never PvP again began the process of making me a skilled PvP'er.
Cheers, and hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!
I am not holy, but I am mindful on how I treat others and how others treat me. That is something I do... no matter what I am doing or where I am going. If you think that is my believing that I am better than others... nope... I pay a lot more attention to what is going on around me.
That being said, I am loath to be too harsh on the leavers. I would never do it, I look down on those who do it, but I prefer to preserve freedom of choice (especially in a game) wherever possible. There's a price (in the form of the meh leaver penalty) that the system imposes on that choice, and if someone is willing to pay it, I'm not going to concern myself too much about the rest and just play my heart out.
I *do* strongly believe there needs to be a stronger leaver penalty, something other than "oh I'll just run dailies for 30 mins then requeue for easy win." I'm thinking a glory penalty - something like you lose 50% of the next 6000 glory points you earn after the quit - would do way more to properly penalize leaving.
The penalty for the leaver/quitter/[insert other expletives here] is fine. It's the penalty on the rest of the team that is harsh as they have to suffer playing with a numerical disadvantage. Allowing someone to take their place will help ease this disease plaguing NW.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
The 1.5k pug you're playing with, the newcomer, that pve guy who joined and got <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by exped/geared pvpers...is a human being who's trying to have fun. Be/she might be the nicest person in the world and you're putting him down cause all you care about is to win and get more glory, or seals, or ranking.
Players in same team should support him/ her, teach her, give advice on how to gear up/ improve.
Players on enemy team can chill out and let the losers reach enough points to get the min reward, instead of making the match frustrating for the losing team by <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them non-stop, keeping them at 0 points so that, in the end, they will get nothing.
It's more fun for everyone if players act as a community and stop being obsessed with just rewards.
Few days ago i noticed a guy asking how he could make 3 gold for his first mount. Your typical NW player would laugh at him and tell him to learn pve basics. I gave him 10 gold and told him how to build up gold himself (priceless plates, leadership and leadership alt, and so on).
He was very grateful and i felt like i contributed to a better and more healthy, less toxic game environment.
Quite different from some pvp gwf i met in pvp who is also in current top 5 ncl gwf leaderboard, who i've seen multiple times slaughter less geared players in his BiS negation/vorpal exc...gear and then proceed to mocking them and trashtalk them. You know i'm talking about you "mr D.".
Now Since cryptic rewards these kind of players, regular folks should be nice to each others even more to balance their toxicity.
Agreed. Even though the fault lies with Cryptic for allowing this, the community could play their part by not making the experience even more unpleasant for the new people. What I would do in pvp is disable all communication bar party chat - no zone chat, no pst, no /say as all of these things lend itself to insults and player bashing. If the person wants to rip into you after, let him and then just ignore the b@$t@rd.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Take a different guess as to who are the first to push that "leave" button, once they find out their easy peasy PuG slaughter still can't guarantee a win. :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As has been proven... a couple of BiS players have admitted to being leavers... because they do not want to deal with teammates who have no idea how to play.
They leave due to a sense of arrogance and expectation of success.
The PvP guild members I have played against that were teamed with horrible teams... did not quit. They usually fought after the rest of the team gave up. They are usually very cool about it too... granted that is only a few examples.
Let me be very frank here. This is -- of course -- not ALWAYS the case, but rather a trend/tendency.
When you look at the numbers in GG, when you see leavers, it's always 2 or 3 leaving at the same moment, 99% of the time. You know what this is? This is premades leaving. The first 5 minutes of the match, they look at how the fight is going, and if it looks like the team has got no hope at all, they decide to leave.
GG is mass-combat, and even with the premade steamrolling one spot, the rest of the players could be doing terribly, and thus, still might lose. So, what do those people mostly outgearing others by more than 2,000 IL do? They pick up their shiny, negating <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and leave.
Voila. Now you know why always, almost always leavers leave by 2s or 3s. From the opposite end, now you know why that BiS guy, or group of 2~3 premades, you've been looking forward to fighting again, suddenly are nowhere to be seen once your team starts winning decisively.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I am talking about any and ALL queues... not just PvP.
If you enter a match you are committing to play for X time... regardless. You want to leave? There needs to be a loss of skin when they leave. Without that loss there is no threat. If you can't commit to the team you get... then don't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> join a match. Odds are you will not be matched well unless you join a premade.