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[Feedback] Temptation Rework - For the Devs!
arakk00
Member Posts: 166 Arc User
-=DISCLAIMER=- I WILL START THIS OFF BY SAYING THE CLASS AS A WHOLE NEEDS A SMALL BASE DAMAGE BOOST, AND THAT TYRANNICAL THREAT NEEDS TO BE NERFED INTO THE GROUND OR REMOVED.
Let me start this out by saying that I love the Temptation Scourge Warlock and everything it stands for. The soul-rending, vitality-redistributing style is all me, for sure. I really want to see the SW fixed as a whole, but temptation is probably the worst-hurting spec; it's always been a little weaker for solo play, and now it's a lot weaker for groups too. After getting a positive response on my general SW feedback thread, I put a lot more time and thought into this particular issue! Now, I'm presenting it here.
As it stands, there is a massive problem with the Temptation Scourge Warlock. Sure, players can stack up the lifesteal to be a viable 'off' healer- but only around the highest achievable GS, with all available boons, feats set up for it. With the old 200%, no AoE limitation, about 15% lifesteal from gear and boons was a requirement- also, Accursed Diabolist. That translates to 30% of damage dealt, and required cleverly used AoE spells to maximize. The spec did way less than half what a Fury SW could, even then. It now does.. Even less.
I've given a lot of thought as to what could make the Temptation SW a viable DPS-healer, and I've come up with what I think is a creative solution- the 6-point Temptation capstone. This is a balance feature, but also something of a scaling system. With a 6-point capstone to invest in, Temptation warlocks cannot reap the benefits of 15 points in another tree- or of 5 more points in Temptation. That opens up space for the capstone to be a bit heavily loaded. In addition, the changes I propose make Temptation less dependent on Lifesteal- which is entirely fair, considering how weak the stat is otherwise. So, my proposal for Temptation's capstone is as follows:
Your damage is modified -60%/-40%/-20%/0%/+10%/+20%. You now heal yourself for 60%/50%/40%/20%/17.5%/15% of damage dealt, and heal up to 2 allies within 80' (most severely injured) for twice as much. This healing is 130%/120%/110%/100%/90%/80% as effective on AoE powers. (If you do not nerf TT- this capstone does not take effect while Tyrannical Threat is active.)
By way of explanation- reducing damage at the first rank puts Temptation damage in line with what a healing DC can do. Technically, using this rank (with further balancing to the base heal amount) makes you a full Leader, with no damage dealing capabilities. Being a Rank 1 Temptation is both similar and different from being a DC, as you focus on hitting the enemy, still, and your buffs are passive. Building around Rank 1 Temptation means you will build quite a bit differently Moving UP the tree, you start to deal more damage, but heal for a lower percentage; the idea is that net healing only goes down slightly for high-gear players, to provide a large incentive to put in all 6 points.
Which brings me to the damage scaling. Compared to Temptation, both other specs do CRAZY damage. Even if damnation/the soul puppet is toned down a bit, Temptation has the opportunity to fill a niche for the class- multi-target. Most of the SW's abilities have a target cap- a target cap higher than the maximum number of curses. By boosting the damage to ALL enemies by a percentage equal to a single-target curse, you're giving Temptation a serious nudge in DPS against the average 5-target mob group. With the scaling AoE healing severity, Rank One utility SWs get the added boon of being rewarded for tagging more enemies with their debuffs.
Now, moving down the list- self-healing. The Devoted Cleric never dies- well, hardly ever. Even with old lifesteal, the SW was nowhere near as immortal- but they were pretty tough! At max rank, 15%, this capstone is equal to a 'balanced' amount of lifesteal. More was a bit too strong, and everyone stacked it- particularly Control Wizards. A Rank 1 SW means the party will never want for healing; a Rank 6 SW still provides considerable heals, does non-zero damage, and is a survivable DPS in solo/pvp play.
Moving along, we get to the crucial 'numbers game'. This is very important to prevent Field Medic inflation and give a more-or-less accurate at-a-glance idea of what healing the spec really does. Temptation used to put out massive numbers, especially in Tiamat, because it healed EVERYONE- needed or not- for the same amount. By limiting it to 2 allies, you're almost always healing the tank- and whichever DPS was clumsy enough to get hit, if they survived. You're also preventing the borderline exploit that put Temptation SWs at the top of the leaderboards every time in Tiamat.
Before I close up, I want to mention a few more minor things this will affect- firstly, the SW need for Lifesteal. It will still be a viable stat for the Temptation path, as it's needed to proc Dark Revelry- but it provides the Temptation player more ability to diversify their build! Secondly, the Soulbinder/Hellbringer problem; I predict Rank 6 SWs will want to go for Soulbinder and maximize survivability (Immolation Spirits and Soul Scorch), while Rank 1s will want to capitalize on Hellbringer's additional debuffs and higher sustained damage! Lastly, Aura of Cruelty- it just needs changed. No name change- change the lifesteal severity to critical severity (or chance).
And that's it! My presentation here, with some tweaking based off of how it works in practice, should make Temptation jump from a floundering, unwanted spec that people only take for bragging rights into a well-rounded powerhouse that is both equal to and distinct from Fury and Damnation.
Let me start this out by saying that I love the Temptation Scourge Warlock and everything it stands for. The soul-rending, vitality-redistributing style is all me, for sure. I really want to see the SW fixed as a whole, but temptation is probably the worst-hurting spec; it's always been a little weaker for solo play, and now it's a lot weaker for groups too. After getting a positive response on my general SW feedback thread, I put a lot more time and thought into this particular issue! Now, I'm presenting it here.
As it stands, there is a massive problem with the Temptation Scourge Warlock. Sure, players can stack up the lifesteal to be a viable 'off' healer- but only around the highest achievable GS, with all available boons, feats set up for it. With the old 200%, no AoE limitation, about 15% lifesteal from gear and boons was a requirement- also, Accursed Diabolist. That translates to 30% of damage dealt, and required cleverly used AoE spells to maximize. The spec did way less than half what a Fury SW could, even then. It now does.. Even less.
I've given a lot of thought as to what could make the Temptation SW a viable DPS-healer, and I've come up with what I think is a creative solution- the 6-point Temptation capstone. This is a balance feature, but also something of a scaling system. With a 6-point capstone to invest in, Temptation warlocks cannot reap the benefits of 15 points in another tree- or of 5 more points in Temptation. That opens up space for the capstone to be a bit heavily loaded. In addition, the changes I propose make Temptation less dependent on Lifesteal- which is entirely fair, considering how weak the stat is otherwise. So, my proposal for Temptation's capstone is as follows:
Your damage is modified -60%/-40%/-20%/0%/+10%/+20%. You now heal yourself for 60%/50%/40%/20%/17.5%/15% of damage dealt, and heal up to 2 allies within 80' (most severely injured) for twice as much. This healing is 130%/120%/110%/100%/90%/80% as effective on AoE powers. (If you do not nerf TT- this capstone does not take effect while Tyrannical Threat is active.)
By way of explanation- reducing damage at the first rank puts Temptation damage in line with what a healing DC can do. Technically, using this rank (with further balancing to the base heal amount) makes you a full Leader, with no damage dealing capabilities. Being a Rank 1 Temptation is both similar and different from being a DC, as you focus on hitting the enemy, still, and your buffs are passive. Building around Rank 1 Temptation means you will build quite a bit differently Moving UP the tree, you start to deal more damage, but heal for a lower percentage; the idea is that net healing only goes down slightly for high-gear players, to provide a large incentive to put in all 6 points.
Which brings me to the damage scaling. Compared to Temptation, both other specs do CRAZY damage. Even if damnation/the soul puppet is toned down a bit, Temptation has the opportunity to fill a niche for the class- multi-target. Most of the SW's abilities have a target cap- a target cap higher than the maximum number of curses. By boosting the damage to ALL enemies by a percentage equal to a single-target curse, you're giving Temptation a serious nudge in DPS against the average 5-target mob group. With the scaling AoE healing severity, Rank One utility SWs get the added boon of being rewarded for tagging more enemies with their debuffs.
Now, moving down the list- self-healing. The Devoted Cleric never dies- well, hardly ever. Even with old lifesteal, the SW was nowhere near as immortal- but they were pretty tough! At max rank, 15%, this capstone is equal to a 'balanced' amount of lifesteal. More was a bit too strong, and everyone stacked it- particularly Control Wizards. A Rank 1 SW means the party will never want for healing; a Rank 6 SW still provides considerable heals, does non-zero damage, and is a survivable DPS in solo/pvp play.
Moving along, we get to the crucial 'numbers game'. This is very important to prevent Field Medic inflation and give a more-or-less accurate at-a-glance idea of what healing the spec really does. Temptation used to put out massive numbers, especially in Tiamat, because it healed EVERYONE- needed or not- for the same amount. By limiting it to 2 allies, you're almost always healing the tank- and whichever DPS was clumsy enough to get hit, if they survived. You're also preventing the borderline exploit that put Temptation SWs at the top of the leaderboards every time in Tiamat.
Before I close up, I want to mention a few more minor things this will affect- firstly, the SW need for Lifesteal. It will still be a viable stat for the Temptation path, as it's needed to proc Dark Revelry- but it provides the Temptation player more ability to diversify their build! Secondly, the Soulbinder/Hellbringer problem; I predict Rank 6 SWs will want to go for Soulbinder and maximize survivability (Immolation Spirits and Soul Scorch), while Rank 1s will want to capitalize on Hellbringer's additional debuffs and higher sustained damage! Lastly, Aura of Cruelty- it just needs changed. No name change- change the lifesteal severity to critical severity (or chance).
And that's it! My presentation here, with some tweaking based off of how it works in practice, should make Temptation jump from a floundering, unwanted spec that people only take for bragging rights into a well-rounded powerhouse that is both equal to and distinct from Fury and Damnation.
A <Friendly Dragon>!
Post edited by arakk00 on
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Comments
What's the goal of your rework? i.e. what problems are you trying to solve?
Why try and fit 2 paths into one tree? My understanding is you want to offer 2 possible builds here:
1) Party healer (or just an off-heal couldn't tell)
2) Self sustaining solo dps build
whilst at the same time vastly improving both's AOE dps output
but 2) Isn't this more easily achieved as a DPS specced SW with a sizable investment in LS anyway? The alternative you propose here is way too complicated and would result in far more bugs than improvements to QOL I'm certain.
Also, if you really want to avoid "dipping" into other trees, make all the trees have solid supporting choices and players will have to make sacrifices and choices to get what they want anyway - don;t reinvent the way feat trees mechanically work.
I also wouldn't worry about "score inflation" on leaderboards, they are meaningless. Did you beat the content? Was it an enjoyable experience?
WRT to life-steal, you completely remove the need for it (other than the procced feat) - again, why such a vast change that invalidates several other feats at the same time?
This is indeed supposed to offer 2 viable 'paths' with one capstone. There is very little to bug, it's flat percentages- they could recycle the old lifesteal code, or copy/paste from one of the other "%healing" abilities.
The thing with 2) is that it's VERY, VERY dependent on gear. Until you get a lot of gear, with either other spec you are a "Glass cannon", especially with Fury.
As for the 'dipping' thing- the SW is DPS. That is their purpose. Temptation is their support tree; other specs only need to improve damage, and that they do- and well.
On AoE DPS, I wouldn't say 'vastly'. This capstone is specifically stated to NOT synergize with Tyrannical Threat- other than TT, Dreadtheft is your only true AoE. Everything else caps at around 5 targets. With Rank 6 of the proposed Soul Bonding, that evens out to the damage of hitting one more target, divided among the 5.
On the leaderboards: It's an easy metric for devs to gauge competitiveness. Also, by limiting it to 2 targets, the effectiveness can be tweaked based on how well they heal those 2 targets, versus how much healing they put out overall!
Lifesteal? Dark Revelry is worth 20% of THEIR power. That's a serious damage buff. Just adding a few lifesteal feats gives you a little bit of a proc rate on it- meaning you don't need any on gear. Boons are also a decent proc. High lifesteal, you'll proc it even more. Low lifesteal, you'll buff less- but be a bit tankier, in a nutshell, because those stat points can go into other things. It allows BUILD DIVERSITY, which I think is pretty great. It's part of the reason they removed set bonuses!
So all in all, the goal of my rework? I said to myself, "How can Temptation be desirable and scale fairly?" Right now, it's way too niche, and just buffing it means the way gear scales will create massive issues later down the line, making higher-gear players way too strong if mid-geared players are viable. With my proposal, higher gear will produce better results- but it shouldn't get out of control like mod 5 got to be. Moderately geared players will be valid members of a party, and potentially main healers depending on their build and how they use it. Higher geared players will consequentially see higher healing and damage- but unlike old temptation, with that exponential growth as bonuses and percentages stacked up, this Temptation scales fairly linearly. If you want a summary: Temptation no longer plays like the theme of the spec dictates, stealing and redistributing life. This rework would fix that.
You propose a UI change, for 1 out of - what is it now? - 21 trees, as an exception, with a capstone that would no longer be a binary option but rather 2 values tethered and inversely proportional. Personally, I see a lot to bug there. We've had plenty of bugs just from the way feats currently are presented and coded.
Those 2 build choices need to come from which feats you take along the way, not how much of the capstone you sign up for.
Sorry for any confusion, I didn't mean give all trees "Support" options. I meant - make sure that the trees are full of solid options that support the role/design of that tree. Stay within the tree you get better at filling that role, "dip" outside and you lose the focus for some other benefit.
If that's all you want to keep LS for, proc Revelry off of Crit (or something else completely) and free up all the LS feats from the Temp tree to strengthen the overall goal of the tree. Alternatively, keep LS as a central stat for the Temp build in some way.
I don't propose a UI change, firstly. They're perfectly able to add ranks to the large icons- look at how boons work. It'd be a slight inconsistency, but it's best for overall balance and does allow scalability and variety!
The idea of putting the points in the capstone has to do with 'dipping'. So does the keeping Revelry on Lifesteal! Temptation tiers 1-3 are EXCELLENT for dipping, especially when you play Soulbinder/Fury. Keeping Revelry as LS procced doesn't invalidate the existing lifesteal feats, it creates independence from gear. Put one point, you can dip for more utility or healing. Put six, less dipping, but you get a capstone-level DPS boost and a measure of old LS back. This is a minimal effort, highly variable capstone setup that opens up the class a lot more. They already have the code they'd need in other forms, and it's not buggy code for the most part.
Of course, you do have a point- it could be a better full support tree if those lifesteal buffs were replaced.