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[Feedback] PVP: How to make the entire experience better AND balanced!!!
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
Unless you are a hermit, you have probably read one or two threads about "TR being OP" - especially within the last TWO modules and while its not QUITE as bad as it was last module its still pretty bad. There is pretty much zero class that can 1v1 a TR and I will tell you I ,for one, am really sick of the pvp "meta" being that you + one other person chase a TR around a node for 45 minutes and we call that a "good match".
EDIT: For simplicity
Problem: a TR is required as their role in pvp is NOT an assassin but to contest nodes. When TR is given weak damage (module 3) they dont even fight and just hop around the node, this is NOT how PVP should be played and it is TOO effective of a strategy for ANY TR to get a chance to play a striker/assassin role... When they are given GOOD damage (mod 4-6) then they are a god class literally being THE deciding factor for PVP being able to kill AND contest. They are THE ideal class for PVP and NO premade can really go without one - not how PVP should be with a mandatory class IMO.
The proposed solution was to make it so a TR in stealth no longer counts as "contesting" . This would force a TR to play more of an "assassin" since they were not "ideal" for node contesting. I think it only fair to have the "Defender classes" be the ideal contesting classes, such as OP or GF. This alleviates the problem that you can actually SEE Them and know who you are fighting and not some class that can stay hidden and negate any points.
You cant NOT 2v1 them or else you will lose 1v1. If you make a TR too weak, they will be too worthless so I think THE best solution is to slightly Change the GAME rather than the CLASS to force them more into a "striker/assassin" role. This will make them MUCH easier to balance in the future.
I will also include some other suggestions along these same lines.
1) Contesting no longer completely nullifies point gain but only diminishes point gain. When uncontested you gain 1 point a second. When contested 1 point every 3 seconds. When uncapped or enemy capped obviously zero points.
2) There is NO more contesting. Period. It is either owned and ticking for Team A or Team B. When it is 2 on a node versus 1 it still "caps" the node but without contesting it.
3) Change nodes to "click to capture" and either adopt option #1 or option #2 as well. JUST doing this without 1 or 2 would WORSEN the issue because now a TR wouldnt even have to stand on the node to stop you from capping. But include this with the TR stealth suggestion or EITHER of the other ones and it would work well, a TR could still "stall" a re-capture if he owned it, but couldnt nullify points if he didnt.
.
EDIT: For simplicity
Problem: a TR is required as their role in pvp is NOT an assassin but to contest nodes. When TR is given weak damage (module 3) they dont even fight and just hop around the node, this is NOT how PVP should be played and it is TOO effective of a strategy for ANY TR to get a chance to play a striker/assassin role... When they are given GOOD damage (mod 4-6) then they are a god class literally being THE deciding factor for PVP being able to kill AND contest. They are THE ideal class for PVP and NO premade can really go without one - not how PVP should be with a mandatory class IMO.
The proposed solution was to make it so a TR in stealth no longer counts as "contesting" . This would force a TR to play more of an "assassin" since they were not "ideal" for node contesting. I think it only fair to have the "Defender classes" be the ideal contesting classes, such as OP or GF. This alleviates the problem that you can actually SEE Them and know who you are fighting and not some class that can stay hidden and negate any points.
You cant NOT 2v1 them or else you will lose 1v1. If you make a TR too weak, they will be too worthless so I think THE best solution is to slightly Change the GAME rather than the CLASS to force them more into a "striker/assassin" role. This will make them MUCH easier to balance in the future.
I will also include some other suggestions along these same lines.
1) Contesting no longer completely nullifies point gain but only diminishes point gain. When uncontested you gain 1 point a second. When contested 1 point every 3 seconds. When uncapped or enemy capped obviously zero points.
2) There is NO more contesting. Period. It is either owned and ticking for Team A or Team B. When it is 2 on a node versus 1 it still "caps" the node but without contesting it.
3) Change nodes to "click to capture" and either adopt option #1 or option #2 as well. JUST doing this without 1 or 2 would WORSEN the issue because now a TR wouldnt even have to stand on the node to stop you from capping. But include this with the TR stealth suggestion or EITHER of the other ones and it would work well, a TR could still "stall" a re-capture if he owned it, but couldnt nullify points if he didnt.
.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Well its simple. Is the TR supposed to be an assassin or defender?
Everytime people say "nerf TR damage!" TRs say "we are the assasin class we need to deal good damage!" THen players say "TR is too hard to kill" TRs get mad "We need stealth we are the assasin class!"
So again... Why should the TR be THE best defender, AND killer. It makes them a god class in PVP able to contest a node, kill anyone 1v1. They literally can do it all.
Shouldnt THE best class for defneding a node be a DEFENDER? Like GF or OP? It makes no sense, you cant have them both.
AS for faster stealth drain. no way. that would make the class useless. The TR can still 1v1 and KILL anyone on a node and THEN cap it outside stealth. Its not like it changes THAT much TBH, but they can no longer just hop around the node without even fighting... Which happens ALL the time now. They dont even attack unless Lurkers is up, they just jump hop jump hop all around the node, impossible to catch and IF caught, Pop ITC then re-stealth.
Its just a joke and its not PVP.....
If TRs want to have good damage, stealth, and be an assassin fine by me, but they should NOT be the best defender as well.
You might as well title this post as another whine fest vs. TRs.
Yes... some TR's abuse exploits, but then again... how many people don't?
When a 100k LB hits on a CW who is stunned... and the HP level moves an angstrom... who is OP? Not much damage can be done with entangle on.
Quit *****ing and play the game. ***** about the bugs and exploits... don't ***** about the classes being too strong for me to handle. Trust me... I have been killed more than I would like... but I do NOT whinge about it. I take it like anyone playing a game should.
As being part of playing the game.
Here is a solution to your chasing the TR... let him cap and come back later. Stop wasting time, losing points, by chasing him. That is EXACTLY what he is doing... distracting you from scoring. Guess what... he wins even if he dies.
Though i'd also replace deflect with ranged dmg reduction.
Im really not sure what you are talking about clearly you didnt watch the videos.
2 TRs = 1 on team A and 1 on team B. So its 4v4. on the other two? Maybe my math is wrong...... 5-1= nope its 4. Ya 4v4.
Also watch the LATER video, this is how common premades are run. You are forced to put TWO people on YOUR team to fight the TR since noone can 1v1 him, which makes it 4v3 on the other two nodes.
So the counter? YOU must have a TR on YOUR team to do the same on THEIR node making them 2v1 him so its now 2v2 at mid.
So the entire issue boils down to this:
If TR wants to be an assasin and deal good damage - fine. But remove stealth contesting.
IF TR wants to KEEP stealth contesting they EITHER need to lose DAMAGE or "Survivability".
- Options here are to remove "Shadowy Opportunity" and maybe look at removing "100% crit in stealth".
- For Survivability, I would remove "Shadow Strikes" ability to refill stealth meter OUTSIDE stealth (so it would still refill INSIDE stealth) and I would also prefer to see ITC changed so maybe it no longer BREAKS CC, so you have to use it PRE-emptively instead - it does last what 5-6 seconds now? I mean cmon....
So take your pick, Because currently no class can 1v1 TR (fine by me) but what it just flat out SILLY is the ENTIRE PVP game hinges upon having a good TR. If you have a good TR and the enemy doesnt that fact alone = GG. Because they must send 2+ people to fight him making it unfair.
This has nothing to do with nerfing any class its more just Ive been playing this game for over 2 years and the "META" of PVP has always been "chase around this TR" and since FOREVER it has caused balance problems. If you want to make the game balanced without NERFING the TRs at all, remove the ability to contest a node in stealth. Thats it. THey can still kill 1v1. They still would take 2 ppll to kill them, but they are no longer the ideal node contesters or holders.
Bringing ONE video to an argument about ALL of the OP TRs is ludicrous. Maybe I will post a video about how I play. I get my *** handed to me in every match... except one lst night.
Last night, I was #3, in a winning match and I had 0 kills AND 0 deaths. There are some renegade TRs out there that actually want the team they are on to win, instead of padding our own numbers. I am not saying that people who kill a lot are playing it wrong. It is the concept of allowing the distraction of fighting off the nodes that kills everything.
If a TR ws smart they would fight off node and keep the opposing team focused on them... without a scoring potential for the opposition, and without losing points for their team.
Often times in a match, I have seen the "feeding frenzy" instinct unleashed. I run away from that as much as I can. I use the fact that a lot of TRs are kill hungry, an opposition players think a stealthed TR is lurking for the kill. That is when I make my way to another node. I will go back and cap it later. After all... you get 50 points for a kill, 150 for a tower defender kill and 25 for an assist... you get 300 for a cap.
A TR's greatest OP skill... is not a feat or power given by Cryptic... it is their psychological gameplay that screws with you. Like trying to catch a greased pig... or a chicken. BTW... everyone that whinges about TRs being OP... have lost that psychological fight.
When you walk away from it, you take away your losses and you remove the fangs from any TR.
It hasd been said countless times, but many of you refuse to understand... take away a skill/tree/class and you remove the barrier to have your own tree/skill/class messed with. In essence, Let ye who is without sin, cast the first stone... OR
PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULD NOT THROW STONES.
I will make a post highlighting what is wrong with PvP and add EACH CLASS as a focal point to the problems... let see how that works.
All is fair in Love and War.
Which one is PvP?
dude, as much as i admire your will to play more on the forums then in game, i would say just stop QQ so much and play more.
we were doing inhouse yesterday and sobek and taylor were clearing me in 1 second, i died like 20 times, in 40 mins or something. As a TR i probably died the most in that game.
Now, if you spent less time crying about issues on the forums, do like the rest of us, play the game and HAMSTER adapt, and your guild might even be able to clear trs one day aswell. Because as far as i can see, you are their only GWF right now, and you are spending all your time writing these long essays on the forum.. instead you could actually practise with a GF and learn to clear trs super fast.
TLDR: less qq, more play
EDIT:
Lets reference that video you linked to me. There are a 100 examples of this in that video, but here is one of them.
https://youtu.be/MDErqrBU0IQ?t=2m1s
The first 3 seconds of that video. im throwing COS at tyrion and im using lifedrinker. Well, lifedrinker basically reveals my position. because you can see where the cos is coming from when using that enchant, and still Tyrion was running in circles in front of me. Im really sorry, if that is not obvious to you guys, but with some more practice in game and less time on the forums, you would in fact have a much better experience. Because trs die faster now then they did in mod 5.
Well... Sobek is using Dark Future Coding Leet Haxxx
Dat circle tho'
https://youtu.be/MDErqrBU0IQ?t=3m
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
I like the idea. One of Ayroux's better ideas, and one I think that has been around for awhile and has been supported in the past.
I think it'd make TR more fun to play too, and it'd still be a viable strategy to have TR be at enemy node. Just not the only strategy.
At least until someone convinces me otherwise, I support the idea that nodes shouldn't be contested when in stealth. Current gameplay is fun, but this would open up some interesting new tactics / options.
Iyon the Dark
So my question is this: if you DISAGREE with the OP, fine, but what is YOUR solution to TRs then? I am trying to find a way to NOT "nerf TRs" abilities and this is something that has been nothing but pure annoyance since mod 1 days when this build first came out (or maybe pre mod 1 now I cant remember)...
Im not saying this is a black and white "NEEDS TO HAPPEN" All I am saying is I personally believe this will increase the QOL for everyone in game. Instead of a TR being mandatory for each team because they are the best at everything, it changes the entire tactics of the game completely and I think it would be for the better.
If you disagree, post YOUR suggestion and lets be constructive.
And one of these bugs with a huge impact right now is SO multiproccing:
URL: http://i.imgur.com/jC0Hm8O.png
Get rid of that bug and we'll see how much damage a TR will be able to do.
Why I disagree with you?
I disagree with you because if you take the contest capability from a TR then why would you even want a TR in your team? The whole pvp mode is based on capturing nodes. You can easily replace a TR with a Paladin then. Anyways that's all theory crafting. As I said - I prefer fixing bugs first before touching a class itself.
No offense - but you don't play TR at all. How do you know what's fun and what's not?
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Dude plays a month and a half, knows all classes. Forget nodes, forum should not let anyone post within 6 months of joining. Big shut the hell up please, you complain alot, especially for a tr.
I agree with that, but half the time the DEVs dont even know HOW to fix bugs OR what causes them OR are even aware of them. Maybe you have or havnt but have you posted bug reports and started a threat about the SO bug?
As for TR being fun, this is something that a collection of players from Abs/PD weighed in on and said the same thing. I HAVE played TR but not for a while and frankly what killed my desire to play TR WAS the perma build.
The role of a TR in a PM could EASILY be a "node clear" since half the time you wouldnt even know they were there to clear. THey would be extremely effective 2v1 with their burst damage. Also if node no longer shows contesting you would have LESS clue where they were.
We can disagree - thats fine - im not a TR. Im just a guy who has gotten VERY tired or the same "meta" of PVP for 2 years - essentially throw a class you cant see, you can beat you 1v1 on the far node and then spend 45 minutes chasing him around sometimes you kill him sometimes he kills you.
Its just not FUN anymore for me. THis is MY opinion.
I would like to see TR changed to be THE "elite assassin class". Now maybe that means Exec needs some love, but id rather see TR made into a burst striker than a perma stealth contester class. Or if you WANT to play contesting then at a minimum the damage from CoS spam should be diminished and maybe the multi proc issue would solve SOME of that. I would also suggest THEN (if no stealth contest change) that SO no longer deal Piercing as that (and I think you would agree) is just a garbage mechanic in game.
No offense taken. I play a TR, just clearly not as main. Playing a stealthed striker that has the option of roaming node to node, holding enemy node, or clearing home node seems fun to me. This would actually make killing a tr more difficult, because you can't tell when TR is on node when stealthed. But that is of course my opinion.
I would want a TR on my team because they can clear stuff faster than almost any other class. Because they are fast, they have good cc, and can rotate almost imperceptibly. And because they can still hold people 2v1 with or without the ability to contest.
I don't think the OP is suggesting that this change should be prioritized over bug fixing. Just that, even with the current bugs, this would allow for some interesting mechanics that would be an improvement over the stale '2v1 tr on enemy node' tactic. Fun thought exercise, but doubtful the devs will consider it.
Iyon the Dark
Since bug threads are getting floated with unnecassry comments from the locals about mechanics they don't understand we decided to approach the devs directly.
Which is totally fine. But my opinion is a different one and I disagree with your suggestions. I like the TR's role as it's now. And I liked it in mod2, 3, 4 - haven't played Premades in mod5 -. Why do I like it? Because a well played TR has a huge impact if you are going to win or not. So if my team wins I feel satisfied.
Anyways these are just all opinions and everybody has a different one. What I actually dislike are thread titles like this:
"[Feedback] PVP: How to make the entire experience better AND balanced!!!"
Feedback or theory crafting is always welcome - no arguing on that. But IMHO your suggestions won't make the entire experience better or balanced. I played a pretty nice game yesterday where the experience was awesome and the overall balance pretty good. You can check it out on Sobek's channel soon. (EDITED) A thread title like that has just a too demanding nature.
No - I don't agree on it yet. I do agree that passive dmg sources have to go. But if you only change SO and not other classes passives (SO can't crit for example) then I don't know if I'm going to like the change.
But anyways - lots of theory crafting. As for now I posted my suggestion to improve the game by fixing bugs before doing anything else.
Have a nice day.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
BUT, a CW can hold a tr 1v1 (Even clear). A paladin, can hold a tr 1v1. A DC can hold a tr 1v1. There are so many options.
And in 2v1 situations, you can clear a TR at the speed of light with almost any 2 classes.
PvP is always chaotic at the beginning of every mod. Just let it settle a bit before you start suggesting drastic changes.
WHAT DA FUG? Are you plying the same game that I am playing?
Clearly not because your 2.1k item level and the game I play is 4.6k+ item level players. Trust me, it makes a BIG difference and BTW I am 4.7k item level.
Top tier PvP IS a different game that blue gear PvP.
I did not start this post whinging about any class. I have been a member of PWE for 5 years... before you. I joined NW... in March, yes... but I have 15+ years of playing MMO's... and ALWAYS with a TR Main.
**** is aalways the same... but I have never complained about another class being too strong.
Oh so you PvP with a class higher than me? I have all purple PvP... Burning. I am in the top 5 of 75% of my matches. I do not use exploits to get better gear. I do not put a ton of money into the game and I do not whinge if I get my *** kicked. Gear does not mean dookie if you whinge all the time.
iLvL is broken as hell anyways.
I have faced GWFs, probably you as well, in PvP who crush me. The same goes for almost every other class. Yet, I get jumped on by 5 people at a time... because I am a TR.
I have not whinged about any of that.
Grow up and play the game.
BTW... I have run GG's with you and your guild. I have run with all of the top PvP guilds... as from a queue selected PUG.
I guess we should default back to the master and say every class is balanced then. We shouldnt point out the obvious because you dont? I dont get the logic here...
You dont present any points at all bro, just saying stupid stuff like "L2P Bro" "Are you even playing the same game" "Ive played MMOs for 15 years never complained about a class being OP"
OK, but what does that have to do with ANYTHING? Hint: It doesnt....
Just because YOU dont post saying hey a class is OP in PVP and INSTEAD of me making a thread saying NERF the class, I am saying LEAVE the class but change the WAY domination is played.
If it were up to me (and I have made this post before) Id remove ALL contesting PERIOD. THAT would drastically change PVP as well - it would accomplish the same thing.
Or the other option: Make contesting rather than "null" the points it instead ticks 1 ever 3 seconds when contested rather than 1 every 1 uncontested versus ZERO when contested.
Nullifying the effects of contesting CHANGE the game to be more fun, instead of the GOAL being a "stalemate" at best - which is exactly the goal of TR on far node, which is just a bull**** way of playing PVP.
Since when has a "KOTH" type game had the GOAL be to perma contest? Its ONLY this game's PVP - its been an issue to balance around since day 1 with TR either being god or worthless but EITHER way they are THE best at contesting nodes.
ONLY in this game can TR attack from stealth - another issue that has CLEARLY been an issue since day 1 to balance around.
I too have been playing MMOs for over 10 years, I too played a rogue during WoW pvp days exclusively. But guess what, when you "backstabbed" a player you came OUT of stealth and had to use mechanics to get back IN stealth via encounters to then run away. And "Arathi Basin" WAS "Domaintion" of sorts, what happened when you clicked a node to cap? You UNSTEALTHED. There was no contesting a node... You COUDLNT attack from stealth and COULDNT nullify points by JUST hoping around the node, if you wanted to screw with someone trying to cap you could but it would pop you OUT of stealth making you vulnerable.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
One error... I killed from stealth all the time in WoW. Though you are right capping immediately removed stealth.
What you are complaining about is a playing style that many TR's have adopted because it messes with the opposing players minds. Why do they do that? Because if they go head to head they WILL get crushed.
What I am trying to express is that when you throw the blanket of dispersion over an entire class... you make a lot of assumptions that ALL TRs are this way.
I rarely run around the mulberry bush like an idiot, If I survive the initial rush. I smoke, stealth and get the hell out of Dodge. I then move to another cap. My playing style is not fixed but it is always adapting to the stimulus. If you come at me one on one... I will fight. Come at me 5 on 1 I will run and most often die. There is no use fighting 5 players who have heaped upon you. Sometimes I do not even see my toon.
I know for a fact that you have killed me, at least once. So...
You want stealth removed from caps... fine by me. 95% of the time I am on my tiger when I cap.
Will that solve ALL of the issues? Nope. It is called a 'power vacuum'. If you remove something from presence, something else will take it's place... maybe that next thing will be Unstoppable.
There is a saying that came about after the holocaust.
When my neighbor came to me looking for help because the government was rounding up HAMSTER, I did not help him because they were not looking for me. When another friend came to me and asked me to hide him because the HAMSTER were rounding up the gypsies, I did not help because they were not looking for me. When they came looking for Jews, I could not ask for any help because there was no one left to help me.
BTW... I have seen GWFs and GFs hiding in amongst the Ogres and the Golems.
Mister TR, why object to this change if you wouldn't be affected by it? OP has an excellent point. Any 'good' TR nullifies the points from and potentially captures a node just by stealthing and skittering around. It's the same thing the GF/OP, who are WaI, are supposed to do. What OP is saying is that running around stealthed on a node prevents the owner from getting points, even if they have 2 there keeping you from capping it. As a bonus, you're tying up 2 members of their team for 1 member of your team, giving you an edge in fights. Again, the same as the GF. Except here's the deal breaker- you also have MASSIVE burst damage, god help any squishy character that comes to counter-contest you. The OP suggests a minor change that would only affect permastealth TR players significantly, and inhibit their Assassinate OR grind down + be unkillable. The TR stays the nuisance that he is, but as long as he's not uncontested the node will still generate points.
Yes and there is another side to this. THe VAST majority of TRs do not get GEARED enough to stack all the Synergies that enable OP things to exist.
You want to deicmate players in PVP. Go get a Mythic Wheel, Get Lurkers Up, Get an Orange MH, get LOL set bonus and spec into SO.
Pop Fire buff, Use Lurkers then spam COS and watch everyone you face melt in seconds - it doesnt matter the class really. Its nearly as cheesy as last module SE literally 1 shotting players from 100% - 0%. Was the average TR doing that? NO. So the AVERAGE player was coming here to defend TRs saying "My SE doesnt hit for 45k+ when a player is full HP, so L2P bro". But guess what, you were not GEARED enough to do that. We can start looking at some of the issues, such as LOL set being OP but thats only ~ 10% of the damage TRs deal and same with other classes. Will it ALLEVIATE the problem? Sure. But it wont be gone.
What about SO piercing and same with Wheel Fire Buff? Sure that will alleviate the issue too. I could make posts about all these things but at the end of the day the meta is the same. If TR damage gets nerfed its not really that big a deal. I dont think you played NW module 3, TR did ZERO damage so ALL they did all module long was hop around the node not even EVER attacking. You couldnt wipe them, they literally wouldnt attack you at all. Is that why you Que for PVP? I know I dont. Its just utterly BORING.
and I KNOW and HOPE something fills that vacuum. I have posted this in the OP - the CLASSES that will be the new backcappers will probably be Paladins. But guess what, you can SEE them, they also have to sacrifice DAMAGE to be tanky. So if they want to spec into "contesting" a node, they lose damage and can more easily be killed because they can be SEEN.
As I said before, the ASSASSIN should NOT be the ideal "Defender" of a node. This should be the DEFENDERS (OP/GF/Sent GWF) to be the best defenders.
The TR should be the ultimate ASSASSIN with the HIGHEST burst damage in the game. The only way to make TRs play this way, to make the class fill that ROLE is to increase their damage (which I think its actually at a pretty fair spot atm) and make it so its LESS "effective" in a game to USE them as a defender.
Now we can go back and forth on 'changind ITC" "removing piercing" "changing Shadow Strike" "Changing stealth" blah blah blah. Why not INSTEAD of change the class - something people invest to build around. INSTEAD change the GAME? Since it HAS been an issue for YEARS in this game and it has been something that CLEARLY the DEVs cannot seem to EVER find a way to balance, just REMOVE the issue that makes it hard to balance - TR defending nodes.
Let the Defenders defend, let the ASSASSIN KILL. Thats all I am saying. Just for YOUR perspective, I used to play TR back in module 1, when this "perma" playstyle first became popular I saw the trajectory and quit my TR here is what/how I used to play and I am NOT saying this is "balanced" because its not, but this is MORE what the TR should play like than the current BULL**** "contesting" game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Nq7uJSe1k
(That is how a TR should FEEL and be played, high burst, but vulnerable outside stealth and stealth is used to SET UP damage not hop around a node)