I'd have to drop more than that if I wanted to take full advantage. I'd need another 5 points, and I happen to really like hasty retreat. The question is: is 50% more crit severity worth it on top of what I have already (erinyes/ P. vorpal), given it will cost me 30% encounter cooldown speed and the ability to move 25% faster in combat. I'll say this, you've got me on the PTS this morning.
If you really like hasty retreat play style, you might not want to go for the gambit spec.
At low ilvl the gambit spec was better for me. I haven't played at a high ilvl yet to know if gambit would outshine standard archery spec. I never needed more run speed. Managing aggro and positioning are what keep me alive.
Losing 30% cool down and rising focus stacks hurt your dps, but you have to take into account gameplay and play style.
Running in between mob sets, avoiding red spots, and general evasion effect the amount you use your powers more than anything. We rarely get to stand still and just pew pew.
Gambit was an increase for me and my style. It may be different for you.
Well my crit chance is way too low to get this off the ground at the moment. I am seeing some nice numbers when I do actually crit, for sure. I'll have to work a lot more of that in, and let me just say gawd dayum 70% AFTER skirmisher's gambit? yikes!
I had a lot of fun running a Skirmishers Gambit archery build for most of the first of mod 6. You have to drop Bottomless quiver and rising focus to make it work, but hey if you like BIG orange numbers its fun.
It yielded on average a 10% dps increase for me over the all archery feats spec.
With Broadhead arrows and stillness of the forest my crit cance was 70% with the 10% reduction from gambit.
Whatever you crit chance is now add 25% for stillness then take away 10% and you'll see what yours would be with this spec.
I wanted to mention this here in the proper thread since I had mentioned it in a trapper thread .
I had great results with this spec at 2500 ilvl (all I did was stack crit). I'm only 3k ilvl now and recently specked back into trapper, but I really enjoyed this gambit spec.
That's actually quite tempting. I'd already considered dropping a couple of feats into Combat for slightly improved durability once mobs reach me so going one further to get SG could work. I could live without Rising Focus but Bottomless Quiver would be a big miss.
Well my crit chance is way too low to get this off the ground at the moment. I am seeing some nice numbers when I do actually crit, for sure. I'll have to work a lot more of that in, and let me just say gawd dayum 70% AFTER skirmisher's gambit? yikes!
It's really not that crazy. On my character sheet it only showed as 38% crit chance. Broadhead and stillness don't show up. So with a crit pot 2.5% + 25% + 5% = 70.5%. The trick is keeping stillness up. My ranged shots on ACT would average around 60% crits.
My crit number rating was around 10500 and wisdom made up for the rest.
At BIS levels it might be very powerful, but I'll never know :P.
So glad to see the other stubborn archers out there!
Cordon is a godsend - I regularly tap out all 3 charges in fairly quick succession, and the melee equivalent gets a ton of use in both PvP and PvE for me.
Thanks to being threatened by ranged mobs inside of Cordon-rooted packs, I got back into using Split the Sky to work down packs of mobs that happen to have 2-3 ranged mobs in them:
Drop a Cordon a few steps in front of the group I want to start hitting.
Set up Split the Sky above the group.
Drop 2nd Cordon directly on the group.
Immediately follow up with Thorn Ward
Drop 3rd Cordon
If any big mobs are still alive, choice between Aimed Shot/charged Split Shot/melee Plant Growth
Generally no ranged mob should be alive at this point (except some particularly beefy casters, maybe) but your Cordon charges should be on their way back up for cleanup.
The advantage of this build, if you're stubborn like me and held out on upgrading gear (didn't want to give up old set bonuses and make some iffy stat tradeoffs), is that Split the Sky is often good enough to kill weak ranged mobs outright, and is almost guaranteed to kill any ranged mob in combination with all your Cordons. Those casters/throwers/archers were taking huge chunks out of my HP while I was trying to manage bigger mobs that escaped the Cordon; now Split the Sky usually ends them.
So I have another silly newb question about armour progression. I recently got the Grim set as I was far too squishy in T1 dungeons to really be a useful team member there. I really don't like PvP, but I can tolerate running GG if it means I get better stuff, and it makes a decent filler until I can get the PvE stuff. I'm wondering what is the natural progression for armour though. Is it really as simple as get T1 Elemental then get the T2 Elven stuff from the seal vendor? That seems like a big jump to me... I just about survive doing T1 as it is, and I hear T2 dungeons are off the charts crazy. Can anyone enlighten me as to whether there is some intermediary step that I haven't figured out yet?
Also, what about the other slots? I have the Seldarine set, so what now? Is it just a matter of farming refinements to upgrade? Same thing with the Elemental weapons? It seems like life after 70 is very grind-y if that is the case, especially if all you are doing is farming refinement for the bazillion enchantments and artifacts that you have collected on your travels.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
So I have another silly newb question about armour progression. I recently got the Grim set as I was far too squishy in T1 dungeons to really be a useful team member there. I really don't like PvP, but I can tolerate running GG if it means I get better stuff, and it makes a decent filler until I can get the PvE stuff. I'm wondering what is the natural progression for armour though. Is it really as simple as get T1 Elemental then get the T2 Elven stuff from the seal vendor? That seems like a big jump to me... I just about survive doing T1 as it is, and I hear T2 dungeons are off the charts crazy. Can anyone enlighten me as to whether there is some intermediary step that I haven't figured out yet?
Also, what about the other slots? I have the Seldarine set, so what now? Is it just a matter of farming refinements to upgrade? Same thing with the Elemental weapons? It seems like life after 70 is very grind-y if that is the case, especially if all you are doing is farming refinement for the bazillion enchantments and artifacts that you have collected on your travels.
Welcome to Neverwinter. This is what the game has become.
So you wear the Grim set, did you not get the T1 blue set? The difference in HP between Assault and Burning is only like ~5k. Slighlt more Defence, which sucks for us, and way less Power, Crit and ArP. I prefer the T1 set for dungeons as opposed to Burning set.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I just finished out the Grim set during the event bonus as it seemed easier to grind out PvP glory than to get seals for the T1 stuff. Now I'm able to survive T1 better due to the HPs on the Grim armour, so I'm working on getting seals for the Assault set to boost the DPS stats. I'm just curious what happens after that though. It seems like there is a large gulf to overcome... with a set of Grim (or Assault), all rank 7 enchants, a decked out cat companion and blue level artifacts my gear does not seem sufficient to take on T2. I was just curious if I'd missed something...
Thanks for all the suggestions. I too am a newbie to Neverwinter and I've always liked the Ranger/Archer class. I only just made L30 -- so time to choose a path. Judging from what I've read here and my tendancy to solo, I'm going Pathfinder. I've also been using whatever armor and/or weapons just drop but I will start surfing the Auction House also. Thanks again.
IMO the best gift from the devs, for Archery builds, was Longstrider's. A straight-up damage buff that not only buffs your own damage significantly, but EVERY ALLY within a huge radius... as well as making you move noticeably faster?
It's a godsend for ranged-fighting tactics which is currently quite a minority in HR builds, especially in PvP. In PvE the problem is that the advantage of range simply does not exist when every single mob that you've aggroed moves towards you at speeds of a sprinting GWF, which also necessitates the use of a meatshield companion. A solo-ranged Archery tactic is still viable in the lower levels, but once you start reaching EE zones and ToD zones with mobs ranging between 60~73, you actually notice a significant lack of damage even with ranged, boosted, high-damage attacks.
Not using any of the close-range, defense-oriented powers during this phase actually becomes quite hardcore. During level up after lv60, my Archery HR hit around 80% of trashmob HP with a single shot of Aimed Shot, the single most powerful weapon HR has.
Wow, this seems impressive, until you realize there are 4 more trash mobs, the one you shot with Aimedshot isn't dead yet, and two lieutenant grade mobs with 3, 5, or more "life bar sections" behind it, and all of them are rushing toward you in which case it takes about 2 seconds for them to cross an 80' distance to reach you, and all the while you're trying to dodge their attacks, which reduces your attack frequency more, resulting in an even more DPS loss, the ranged mob is still firing at you, and hits from the horde of mobs hounding you take 10~15% chunks of your HP bar per hit.
This basic "problem" remains the same in both PvE AND PvP. IMO the developers never really paid too much attention to what an Archery HR's DPS was AFTER the mitigating factors. IMO it is highly likely they just measured its theoretical rate of attack/damage. In other words, I have strong suspicions that when they made Archery, they measured its DPS by having it fire arrows freely at a target at some shooting range, and never really bothered just how much it would be effected when it was actually out in the wilds, being chased by monsters or a sprinting Usain GWFolt.
...hence, one of the best HR players I've seen in this game, Sandy (ralexinor), actually shares the same assessment as I do -- this is the real problem of Archery: despite having some of the most powerful offense buffs in game, Archery is actually the WEAKEST DPS class among all three paths.
When you don't have all that close-range damage/survival traits the Combat has, nor the relentless repetition of CCs the trapper has, then it doesn't matter how much damage you can do theoretically. When you spend 80~90% of your time maneuvering to run away, distance yourself, or just to survive for a bit longer, you ain't firing anything when you're moving around, and when you're not firing anything you don't deal any DPS, and when you can't deal any DPS you can't kill any of the mobs, and when no mobs die, you're perpetually in this vicious circle of danger.
Therefore, the reality of Archery in PvE, is that it doesn't really depict you as this cool, ranged, bull's eye bowmaster. It's more of "fire off one or two really cool/strong attack", and then spend rest of the time shooting a rain of arrows above your head, and then swimming around all the location-based AoEs you dish out and dancing on it with all those enemies until it kills most of your enemies.
...
There are two ways to fix this.
(1) Give Archery more defensive tools
(2) Give Archery more offensive tools
Method (1) is way of eliminating the weaknesses, which works nicely in many cases. But IMO it also homgenizes the path to others, and makes it bland and similar. We already have two paths that fight ranged/melee hybrid with either melee/lifesteal, or CC as a mode of close quarters combat. If its not this kind of 'close range defense', then the only other option is long-range defense, making it easier to run away and keep distance... but then that will also make the path sorely boring as you remain 80' away from the bad guy and endlessly plink with your arrows.
Hence, I'd rather see (2). Heck, leave all the weaknesses and difficulties of survival with Archery. Keeping distance, keeping yourself alive without the tools the other two paths have? Now that's "skill" I'd like to master. When I can do that I'll have a sense of accomplishment. But in turn, Archery needs MORE DPS, and SIGNIFICANTLY more of it.
This, is the solution I would support.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Lately I've been using Hindering Shot with crushing roots to help survive and dps, One rotation that is really working well for me is, CoA, RoA, CoA, shoot a few hindering and split shots while the come near me, when they get close I use my last CoA, Hindering Strike, Plant Growth, and wait a few seconds while dodging and shooting split shots to have my RoA back use it and pull back the mobs with another CoA that might have come back.
One thing that is helping me keep those dodges is the stamina I get back from split shots since I got that on my bow.
hello ,
i just read the first page comments and i like it so far (gonna read the rest while patching the preview patch)
so u gave me the desire to respc to archery and change a bit from trapper .
what i wanted to say is that i've always thought that archery has more dmg output than the 2 other trees , the only problem for me was the gameplay (boring ) and a lot of RoA miss .
The dmg can be even higher with the lostmauth set , a weapon hit with each critical at-will gonna be better than a weapon hit with each encounter (for trapper ) and even more consistent than trapper due to high critic chance .
another flaw is when i tested since weeks ago i found out that the "longshot" feat does't work with cordon (deals o dmg) and i guess no one noticed it or report it (me included) .
My PvP rotation (assuming I'm not alone in battle): Multiple Cordons on any enemies in the area to tie them up for muh tanks, Disruptive on any active CWs, SWs, etc. in the area (actually, this often happens first), Fox Cunning, split shot a pile of enemies, Marauder's Rush into a pile of enemies, do the melee root component of Cordon (Plant Growth?) which does nice damage and continues to bind up some enemies, Marauder's Escape back out or dodge out if I'm out of stamina. Very often, I can catch a group busy meleeing and not paying attention to the preimeter. I'll then simply set up on the fringe of the battle and help my team out while I Archer them to death...Cordons, Rapid Shots, Disruptive Shots. That usually works until the TR finds me.
i don't see myself steppipng into pvp after i resp to archery lol , if i meet a trapper i'll be like a statue lol .
My PvP rotation (assuming I'm not alone in battle): Multiple Cordons on any enemies in the area to tie them up for muh tanks, Disruptive on any active CWs, SWs, etc. in the area (actually, this often happens first), Fox Cunning, split shot a pile of enemies, Marauder's Rush into a pile of enemies, do the melee root component of Cordon (Plant Growth?) which does nice damage and continues to bind up some enemies, Marauder's Escape back out or dodge out if I'm out of stamina. Very often, I can catch a group busy meleeing and not paying attention to the preimeter. I'll then simply set up on the fringe of the battle and help my team out while I Archer them to death...Cordons, Rapid Shots, Disruptive Shots. That usually works until the TR finds me.
i don't see myself steppipng into pvp after i resp to archery lol , if i meet a trapper i'll be like a statue lol .
Please forgive this being totally off-topic (yet relevant). Thought I'd check back in since I posted so early-on in this thread.
Funny you said this above...after being the stubborn, squishy, glass-cannon Archer for 7 months or so, I re-specced to Trapper (gasp) a couple of weeks back after getting pretty tight with a very proficient Trapper in a mostly PvP guild, running GG with him, and seeing first-hand how everything works for Trapper...along with his thorough advice on gearing, stats, rotations, etc. We run together at least 2-3 times per week now, and I'm learning that getting guidance like this is invaluable no matter what your paragon path (hence this thread). It's strange that he's not in my guild, but he is a PvP junkie like me, so that synergy makes sense. Whole new world...give us a GWF to run with and we can destroy pretty much anything that comes at us in PvP. I may return to Archer if Trapper gets nerfed and Archer gets buffed, because I really like the playstyle, but Trapper is proving MUCH cooler that I had anticipated. I now understand why it is FOTM at present.
Even though my guild is mostly PvE, I hate to admit that I am frankly loving running the Trapper. MY KDA stats are way up in PvP, I am so useful in dungeons, etc (mob control and destruction is great with the Trapper, but boss fights are meh), and the zero-cooldown thing on encounters, not to mention the perma-stuns which everyone is compaining about, are just AMAZING. Let me repeat. AMAZING.
I can now fly around the battlefield wreaking havoc like a squirrel on crack while confused TRs anc CWs who would have destroyed me before can't even touch me. As an Archer, I could never have imagined being able to pop Forest Ghost something like every 12-15 seconds. Wow!
We'll see how this all plays out with any buffs and nerfs which come in Mod 7.
One more thing worth mentioning...I was not paying enough attention to survivability. My new friend pointed this out. On his advice I moved some enchants around and refined them up...dropped some now-less-necessary recovery, boosted deflection, and added a little more crit to boost my Vorpal effect. Also, on his advice I switched up from Soulfrged (useless in PvP, a little more useful in PvE) and went to greater Barkshield. Plan to refine it up to Perfect soon. I was not convinced, but the small damage absorption from Barkshield coupled with the additional deflect and running Lone Wolf instead of Serpent have made me much more hearty in the heat of battle...so much less squishy. I believe much of this might apply to an Archer build as well. While it is very cool in concept, I never had the right artifact set to maximize its effect, so I found Soulforged pretty useless while running that spec.
My PvP rotation (assuming I'm not alone in battle): Multiple Cordons on any enemies in the area to tie them up for muh tanks, Disruptive on any active CWs, SWs, etc. in the area (actually, this often happens first), Fox Cunning, split shot a pile of enemies, Marauder's Rush into a pile of enemies, do the melee root component of Cordon (Plant Growth?) which does nice damage and continues to bind up some enemies, Marauder's Escape back out or dodge out if I'm out of stamina. Very often, I can catch a group busy meleeing and not paying attention to the preimeter. I'll then simply set up on the fringe of the battle and help my team out while I Archer them to death...Cordons, Rapid Shots, Disruptive Shots. That usually works until the TR finds me.
i don't see myself steppipng into pvp after i resp to archery lol , if i meet a trapper i'll be like a statue lol .
Please forgive this being totally off-topic (yet relevant). Thought I'd check back in since I posted so early-on in this thread.
Funny you said this above...after being the stubborn, squishy, glass-cannon Archer for 7 months or so, I re-specced to Trapper (gasp) a couple of weeks back after getting pretty tight with a very proficient Trapper in a mostly PvP guild, running GG with him, and seeing first-hand how everything works for Trapper...along with his thorough advice on gearing, stats, rotations, etc. We run together at least 2-3 times per week now, and I'm learning that getting guidance like this is invaluable no matter what your paragon path (hence this thread). It's strange that he's not in my guild, but he is a PvP junkie like me, so that synergy makes sense. Whole new world...give us a GWF to run with and we can destroy pretty much anything that comes at us in PvP. I may return to Archer if Trapper gets nerfed and Archer gets buffed, because I really like the playstyle, but Trapper is proving MUCH cooler that I had anticipated. I now understand why it is FOTM at present.
Even though my guild is mostly PvE, I hate to admit that I am frankly loving running the Trapper. MY KDA stats are way up in PvP, I am so useful in dungeons, etc (mob control and destruction is great with the Trapper, but boss fights are meh), and the zero-cooldown thing on encounters, not to mention the perma-stuns which everyone is compaining about, are just AMAZING. Let me repeat. AMAZING.
I can now fly around the battlefield wreaking havoc like a squirrel on crack while confused TRs anc CWs who would have destroyed me before can't even touch me. As an Archer, I could never have imagined being able to pop Forest Ghost something like every 12-15 seconds. Wow!
We'll see how this all plays out with any buffs and nerfs which come in Mod 7.
One more thing worth mentioning...I was not paying enough attention to survivability. My new friend pointed this out. On his advice I moved some enchants around and refined them up...dropped some now-less-necessary recovery, boosted deflection, and added a little more crit to boost my Vorpal effect. Also, on his advice I switched up from Soulfrged (useless in PvP, a little more useful in PvE) and went to greater Barkshield. Plan to refine it up to Perfect soon. I was not convinced, but the small damage absorption from Barkshield coupled with the additional deflect and running Lone Wolf instead of Serpent have made me much more hearty in the heat of battle...so much less squishy. I believe much of this might apply to an Archer build as well. While it is very cool in concept, I never had the right artifact set to maximize its effect, so I found Soulforged pretty useless while running that spec.
Happy hunting, all.
hello dear hr ,
well well well , i've been a trapper since it first came out , i consider myself enough exp , im well stuffed for pvp and pve . 137IL stuff ,with greater kits pure vorpal , only R8 thought , ...
i did spec into archer in preview shard and tested it and got a solid rotation and i was excited about it , and went back to live server , i did eLOL , i was top chart between 2.8IL players , (im 3.2) .
And then like every night i like to finish my night with a pvp match , and here was my super desapointment , i met in the first match a good trapper in the ennemy team , i was trying to cap our home node and he came to say hello , and all i could do was firing disruptif shot and stay like statue for 5 sec and maybe secced a fox shift and then statue mode again and dead .
I was like : really ? !!! not possible, i sloted crushing roots , CA , HS and went back to him as a trapper Inside an archer , but he smoked me again , and again , i could get him to 50% but he always win .
and here i said good bye to archer . i can't play it since i can't only stick to pve .
so , enless they introduce the double spec feature or something , im not going to spec to archery again !
i'll stick to trapper and like they say in french ( vive le trapper ) !
Changing to trapper is like changing to another class all together, it's like changing from a classic mmo archer to a druid like class that only uses root and magic stuff, feels like not even using arrows =/, it's sad that this is the BiS feat tree at the moment, regardless, we can only hope for the future to bring balance between our three trees and let everyone be happy with the class they choose.
Changing to trapper is like changing to another class all together, it's like changing from a classic mmo archer to a druid like class that only uses root and magic stuff, feels like not even using arrows =/, it's sad that this is the BiS feat tree at the moment, regardless, we can only hope for the future to bring balance between our three trees and let everyone be happy with the class they choose.
Agreed...the difference in my recently changing paragon within HR is so dramatic it is downright ridiculous. You are right, silverdunari...as soon as I switched paragons, but for appearance and gearing, it was as though I was playing an entirely different character. Of course, not as dramatic as switching to a GF Tank alt or some-such, but a stark and incredible difference all the same.
I really miss playing Archer. I prefer the mechanics (requires more skill, more thinking on the fly and adaptability, less "lather, rinse, repeat" repetition in rotations) and I truly love and miss the range-focused aspect. Trapper gives you a little of that, but the object is simply to keep piling on those roots and dazes, so it has no real archer "feel" to it...unless i can pop off the occasional Aimed Shot. Aaaah...the DPS spike! Ranged stuff for Trappers is merely a cog in the machine of the perma-stun and perma-root rotation.
God...how I miss Cordon and Plant Growth!
So I'm hoping that now I'm learning a new paragon path, some balance will eventually be restored so that I can re-spec my guy between trees, and maybe even level an up an alt or two for easy switch-off (although I hate the prospect of the grind involved). Hell...I may even re-spec back and forth a few times simply to see if playing Trapper has made me a better Archer. I certainly feel that playing as a hybrid Archer type made the jump into Trapper much smoother for me.
One thing I will emphasize about the Trapper tree is this. Although I did play a very hybrid style as an archer (stance switched and used melee powers a lot), the Trapper paragon definitely makes the best and highest use of the HR's stance switching abilities, which is truly at the heart of the class concept. This I will gladly concede. I understand why the Devs set it up this way. It is WAI.
That said, a well-geared and highly-skilled Trapper is perhaps a bit OP at present, and Archer is the aforementioned glass cannon...always getting no love. Some balance would be nice.
Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying Trapper should be nerfed. You still have to be damned good to be truly effective at it...especially in higher-level PvP. But the Archer tree, as so well discussed in this very thread, is in dire need of help. I believe something along a 50% increase in base damage along with, some significant defensive buff to help with the weak and squishy nature of the build would be about right. Maybe replacing one of the crappier feats (Keen Eye? Hasty Retreat? Stormcaller's Arrow?) with something that gives a significant full-time boost to deflection? Coupled with Lone Wolf passive, that would do an awful lot to help the build become more viable.
Changing to trapper is like changing to another class all together, it's like changing from a classic mmo archer to a druid like class that only uses root and magic stuff, feels like not even using arrows =/, it's sad that this is the BiS feat tree at the moment, regardless, we can only hope for the future to bring balance between our three trees and let everyone be happy with the class they choose.
The change, the differece itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Without dwelling into how broken the Trappers are currently, at least the difference in playstyle means the devs have got the general "premise" of the class right. This sort of difference can be also experienced very dramatically with the TRs -- the Sabos, Execs, and Scoundrels all play out very differently, almost as much as playing a totally different class. I've actually experienced some 'famous' PvP guild members calling me out as "having no clue how to play a TR", the funny part being that in truth, the guy basically had seen only Sabos at work, and thus had no idea how other TRs played out in actual combat. Ofcourse he was welcome to keep that opinion to himself after I've countlessly proven his lack of knowledge by knocking him out and successfully contesting the node he was guarding, time after time, but I digress.
The difference is a good thing. IMO each of the 3 paths can be roughly summarized as:
Now the problem starts. The reality of NW combat doesn't really support medium~long range fights in that;
(a) Almost every class has so many gap-closing powers that can cut down on your range advantage in an instant.
(b) As opposed to above, ironically, the HR has only one gap-widening power, and that takes up an encounter slot to be used as a low-damage, utility power, when the HR class already has such a low damage in the first place
(c) The Archery tree, has very little means of self-defense in the first place, which, design-wise, strongly implies that the advantage of distance to your target --as in the "gun vs knife logic" -- is what the devs have intented to be used as your main defense factor (hence the run-speed increase, hence feats like Stillness of the Forest...)
(d) Almost every feat in the Archery tree is associated with ranged attacks. Yes, of course, this does not necessarily mean long-range, as you can always pucker in a ranged attack at point-blanck range as well. However, like mentioned above the problem of self-defense necessitates range to be maintained
Ironically, once the distance is so easily closed-in, this distance never grows again, even with powers like Marauder's it only provides mere seconds of distance before it is closed in, and then the Archery HR will be mixed up into close~medium range again.. and at this point your strongest advantages are systematically dead. You are forced into a close-quarters combat with some of the major feats like Stillness of the Forest becoming totally useless after the initial few seconds of the fight, never to be used again, as well as one of your thematically/conceptually/theoretically most powerful attacks, ideal to be used with the Archery feats, also become useless.
Of all the powers, Aimed Shot is theoretically the most ideal power to be used with Archery feats. Except for some reason, while the developers did not think to implement a "spellcasting" or "concentration" factor with spell casters (and as a result all of their powers activate immediately) they implemented this "aim" factor with Aimed Shot... and thus, even the slightest of damage, any one of those trashy, small tick of damage induced by boons, any smallest DoT cast upon you will simply render this attack useless. Aimed Shot is so useless, that it has actually become something of a joke -- as in you can always see who is a newbie HR... just see who is using Aimed Shot and bam! He's 9 times out of 10, a newbie".
I've tried so hard to make Aimed Shot work, and this is such a difficult job. And more's the pity, because I've discovered a setup (which I have personally named "Tankbuster Setup") that with the proper setting, can be used to down even Palys. I'm not at a spectacularl level of gear right now, but I record around 90~110k per Aimed Shot against combat dummies. In actual combat, against even BiS level Palys I can deal around 25k ~ 30k damage per pop when it hits square. Sounds useful? Only if you can manage the almost impossible uphill battle of getting it to fire off in the first place.
So, in the end, the most ideal situation in PvP is when you are totally left alone to free-deal your damage as you like, and this almost never happens. Everytime you are drawn into either a 1v1 or 1v many situation, into a close-quarters fight where you lose all your path's unique traits and strengths, where you spend so much time trying to get away and avoid attacks that the frequency of your attacks are so low, that your damage buffs to ranged attacks don't matter. As ralexinor commented in some other thread, Archery is actually, in the practical sense, the lowest in DPS because you don't get a chance to be able to deal your DPS, because the PvP environment is impossible and it never lets you do that. Archery HRs are ALWAYS forced to fight outside their element, their distance of liking, and always forced outside their element, into a close-combat situation.
In the end, the only mildly successful set-up is just a Trapper-like setup using Crushing Roots and rooting encounters, which, at that point you have to wonder, "If I'm using mainly root powers and bulsheet OP class feature to constantly daze them all the time in a near-melee distance, then why in the world am I playing Archery in the first place?"
This, is the affliction all Archery HRs are facing, especially in PvP, and Archery doesn't even work well in PvE -- just a facepalm after facepalm even in PvE, especially lair quests at ToD level (lv73 enemies).
(ps) Don't even get me started when you meet a CW face-to-face. Without any major CCs, with their single rotations knocking off 1/4 chunks of your HP, as you try and pucker away with the mediocre damage attacks.
IMO, the first and foremost thing they have to fix is Aimed Shot. If anything needs piercing damage, this power does.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Pretty happy that I soloed the No Sympathy HE on SH, as a archery HR, I invite you all to try it's a pretty rewarding experience
Grats! What companion did you use?
I have recently considered whether Pathfinder won't yield me more damage than Stormwarden, which I have played from the start. My single-target damage is noticeable against Lostmauth, where I can be several millions behind the leading damage-dealers before the fight but overtake them in that fight. Even in dungeons like eToS I focus more on single targets than spam Split Shot with Twin-Blade Storm as active class feature. Even with this set-up I don't get close to CWs or GWFs when it comes to trash mobs. The only SW ability I generally use is TBS but only for trash as I switch to Lone Wolf for boss fights. I used Split the Sky religiously prior to Mod 6 but have since dropped it in favour of Cordon. I just don't know whether SW is worth using just for TBS, even if the RoA/CoA combo works well.
Thoughts?
Post edited by lirithiel on
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I don't know about pathfinder, I actually use Stormstep action on bosses to have some extra seconds on my encounters, and TBS everywhere else. I've been trying to set up Aimed shot on boss battles so I don't know if careful attack would increase my overall dps.
Ocasionally I still use split the sky, more for it's melee part, but I find myself using Longstrider, cordon and rain most of the times when on a party, and take off cordon for Thorn ward on boss fights (it activates Lostmauth on every crit).
In the end I wouldn't change to pathfinder only because of soloing reasons (using TBS and CR now).
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
I don't know about pathfinder, I actually use Stormstep action on bosses to have some extra seconds on my encounters, and TBS everywhere else. I've been trying to set up Aimed shot on boss battles so I don't know if careful attack would increase my overall dps.
Ocasionally I still use split the sky, more for it's melee part, but I find myself using Longstrider, cordon and rain most of the times when on a party, and take off cordon for Thorn ward on boss fights (it activates Lostmauth on every crit).
In the end I wouldn't change to pathfinder only because of soloing reasons (using TBS and CR now).
I recall a post from Sandy just after the ArP roots fix and she pointed out that Careful Attack was doing the most damage of all her powers as Trapper, something like 30% of the overall damage. That's considerable for a DoT.
About Stormstep Action: I still don't think it's a bad class feature even after it was obliterated with the nerfhammer, although I think it works best with Disruptive Shot, which only costs 25% AP and has a 7-sec CD for Archers. It's not effective enough with any other dailies and I always use Seismic Shot as Archer.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Revisiting my original post, it seems loads of folks have tried different things to make the archer spec work. And found it hard. Soloing is not really an archer's specialty anyway. An archer is typically behind the front line, harassing the enemy from afar. I've found that I do pretty well in a guild party setting, where we have a tank holding aggro, some fellow DPS to burn down mobs and boss, and a healer to keep everyone up and shooting/bashing.
Rock on, twangers!
Ancient Spirits officer
NW-DM9Pj62ZK 'Bear with Me' NW-DOPPZAYKQ 'Retirement Plans' NW-DKJMLS8OQ 'Sleepy in Cea Tull'
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Revisiting my original post, it seems loads of folks have tried different things to make the archer spec work. And found it hard. Soloing is not really an archer's specialty anyway.
Depends on your set-up and companion. I found soloing much harder without my trusty Wild Hunt Rider. I bought a blue Air Archon this week to replace the green one I had and I decided to level it up. Questing is way harder with a Striker companion. I even died a couple of times
Running with a defender companion who has threat generation and Loyal Defender gear makes life much easier for me as I hardly ever pull aggro from my companion.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
True that. I'm usually running with an Ioun Stone of Allure when partied (which is most of the time). Still haven't obtained a good defender/threat magnet pet yet for solo. Not much solo stuff for me to do anymore, and prefer to run with guildies for dailies, skirmishes, etc.
Ancient Spirits officer
NW-DM9Pj62ZK 'Bear with Me' NW-DOPPZAYKQ 'Retirement Plans' NW-DKJMLS8OQ 'Sleepy in Cea Tull'
About Stormstep Action: I still don't think it's a bad class feature even after it was obliterated with the nerfhammer, although I think it works best with Disruptive Shot, which only costs 25% AP and has a 7-sec CD for Archers. It's not effective enough with any other dailies and I always use Seismic Shot as Archer.
SSA doesn't trigger CD reduction on dailies. It was one of the features I was hoping to utilize as an Archery/Stormwarden spec, except woe is me, it decreases the cooldown neither on Forest Ghost, nor on Disruptive Shot.
At least, IIRC, that is.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
About Stormstep Action: I still don't think it's a bad class feature even after it was obliterated with the nerfhammer, although I think it works best with Disruptive Shot, which only costs 25% AP and has a 7-sec CD for Archers. It's not effective enough with any other dailies and I always use Seismic Shot as Archer.
SSA doesn't trigger CD reduction on dailies. It was one of the features I was hoping to utilize as an Archery/Stormwarden spec, except woe is me, it decreases the cooldown neither on Forest Ghost, nor on Disruptive Shot.
At least, IIRC, that is.
No it doesn't and I wasn't suggesting that it did. The use of dailies triggers SSA and the low CD of Disruptive Shot makes it great in conjunction with the SW class feature. Although you have to delay casting DS by 3 secs to get the full benefit of SSA which is okay to me.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
i use that spell which groups the mobs together in a huddle and aoe them, and then i use the spell which fires arrows from above on them as they are all tightly grouped together. and group of mobs can be killed that way easily
Comments
If you really like hasty retreat play style, you might not want to go for the gambit spec.
At low ilvl the gambit spec was better for me. I haven't played at a high ilvl yet to know if gambit would outshine standard archery spec. I never needed more run speed. Managing aggro and positioning are what keep me alive.
Losing 30% cool down and rising focus stacks hurt your dps, but you have to take into account gameplay and play style.
Running in between mob sets, avoiding red spots, and general evasion effect the amount you use your powers more than anything. We rarely get to stand still and just pew pew.
Gambit was an increase for me and my style. It may be different for you.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
It's really not that crazy. On my character sheet it only showed as 38% crit chance. Broadhead and stillness don't show up. So with a crit pot 2.5% + 25% + 5% = 70.5%. The trick is keeping stillness up. My ranged shots on ACT would average around 60% crits.
My crit number rating was around 10500 and wisdom made up for the rest.
At BIS levels it might be very powerful, but I'll never know :P.
At-wills don't have cooldowns, so no.
Cordon is a godsend - I regularly tap out all 3 charges in fairly quick succession, and the melee equivalent gets a ton of use in both PvP and PvE for me.
Thanks to being threatened by ranged mobs inside of Cordon-rooted packs, I got back into using Split the Sky to work down packs of mobs that happen to have 2-3 ranged mobs in them:
The advantage of this build, if you're stubborn like me and held out on upgrading gear (didn't want to give up old set bonuses and make some iffy stat tradeoffs), is that Split the Sky is often good enough to kill weak ranged mobs outright, and is almost guaranteed to kill any ranged mob in combination with all your Cordons. Those casters/throwers/archers were taking huge chunks out of my HP while I was trying to manage bigger mobs that escaped the Cordon; now Split the Sky usually ends them.
Also, what about the other slots? I have the Seldarine set, so what now? Is it just a matter of farming refinements to upgrade? Same thing with the Elemental weapons? It seems like life after 70 is very grind-y if that is the case, especially if all you are doing is farming refinement for the bazillion enchantments and artifacts that you have collected on your travels.
Welcome to Neverwinter. This is what the game has become.
So you wear the Grim set, did you not get the T1 blue set? The difference in HP between Assault and Burning is only like ~5k. Slighlt more Defence, which sucks for us, and way less Power, Crit and ArP. I prefer the T1 set for dungeons as opposed to Burning set.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
It's a godsend for ranged-fighting tactics which is currently quite a minority in HR builds, especially in PvP. In PvE the problem is that the advantage of range simply does not exist when every single mob that you've aggroed moves towards you at speeds of a sprinting GWF, which also necessitates the use of a meatshield companion. A solo-ranged Archery tactic is still viable in the lower levels, but once you start reaching EE zones and ToD zones with mobs ranging between 60~73, you actually notice a significant lack of damage even with ranged, boosted, high-damage attacks.
Not using any of the close-range, defense-oriented powers during this phase actually becomes quite hardcore. During level up after lv60, my Archery HR hit around 80% of trashmob HP with a single shot of Aimed Shot, the single most powerful weapon HR has.
Wow, this seems impressive, until you realize there are 4 more trash mobs, the one you shot with Aimedshot isn't dead yet, and two lieutenant grade mobs with 3, 5, or more "life bar sections" behind it, and all of them are rushing toward you in which case it takes about 2 seconds for them to cross an 80' distance to reach you, and all the while you're trying to dodge their attacks, which reduces your attack frequency more, resulting in an even more DPS loss, the ranged mob is still firing at you, and hits from the horde of mobs hounding you take 10~15% chunks of your HP bar per hit.
This is the reason I'm asking for more DPS in my "[PvP] Showing some love for archery" thread.
( http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1195138/pvp-showing-some-love-for-archery )
This basic "problem" remains the same in both PvE AND PvP. IMO the developers never really paid too much attention to what an Archery HR's DPS was AFTER the mitigating factors. IMO it is highly likely they just measured its theoretical rate of attack/damage. In other words, I have strong suspicions that when they made Archery, they measured its DPS by having it fire arrows freely at a target at some shooting range, and never really bothered just how much it would be effected when it was actually out in the wilds, being chased by monsters or a sprinting Usain GWFolt.
...hence, one of the best HR players I've seen in this game, Sandy (ralexinor), actually shares the same assessment as I do -- this is the real problem of Archery: despite having some of the most powerful offense buffs in game, Archery is actually the WEAKEST DPS class among all three paths.
When you don't have all that close-range damage/survival traits the Combat has, nor the relentless repetition of CCs the trapper has, then it doesn't matter how much damage you can do theoretically. When you spend 80~90% of your time maneuvering to run away, distance yourself, or just to survive for a bit longer, you ain't firing anything when you're moving around, and when you're not firing anything you don't deal any DPS, and when you can't deal any DPS you can't kill any of the mobs, and when no mobs die, you're perpetually in this vicious circle of danger.
Therefore, the reality of Archery in PvE, is that it doesn't really depict you as this cool, ranged, bull's eye bowmaster. It's more of "fire off one or two really cool/strong attack", and then spend rest of the time shooting a rain of arrows above your head, and then swimming around all the location-based AoEs you dish out and dancing on it with all those enemies until it kills most of your enemies.
...
There are two ways to fix this.
(1) Give Archery more defensive tools
(2) Give Archery more offensive tools
Method (1) is way of eliminating the weaknesses, which works nicely in many cases. But IMO it also homgenizes the path to others, and makes it bland and similar. We already have two paths that fight ranged/melee hybrid with either melee/lifesteal, or CC as a mode of close quarters combat. If its not this kind of 'close range defense', then the only other option is long-range defense, making it easier to run away and keep distance... but then that will also make the path sorely boring as you remain 80' away from the bad guy and endlessly plink with your arrows.
Hence, I'd rather see (2). Heck, leave all the weaknesses and difficulties of survival with Archery. Keeping distance, keeping yourself alive without the tools the other two paths have? Now that's "skill" I'd like to master. When I can do that I'll have a sense of accomplishment. But in turn, Archery needs MORE DPS, and SIGNIFICANTLY more of it.
This, is the solution I would support.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
One thing that is helping me keep those dodges is the stamina I get back from split shots since I got that on my bow.
i just read the first page comments and i like it so far (gonna read the rest while patching the preview patch)
so u gave me the desire to respc to archery and change a bit from trapper .
what i wanted to say is that i've always thought that archery has more dmg output than the 2 other trees , the only problem for me was the gameplay (boring ) and a lot of RoA miss .
The dmg can be even higher with the lostmauth set , a weapon hit with each critical at-will gonna be better than a weapon hit with each encounter (for trapper ) and even more consistent than trapper due to high critic chance .
another flaw is when i tested since weeks ago i found out that the "longshot" feat does't work with cordon (deals o dmg) and i guess no one noticed it or report it (me included) .
Agreed...the difference in my recently changing paragon within HR is so dramatic it is downright ridiculous. You are right, silverdunari...as soon as I switched paragons, but for appearance and gearing, it was as though I was playing an entirely different character. Of course, not as dramatic as switching to a GF Tank alt or some-such, but a stark and incredible difference all the same.
I really miss playing Archer. I prefer the mechanics (requires more skill, more thinking on the fly and adaptability, less "lather, rinse, repeat" repetition in rotations) and I truly love and miss the range-focused aspect. Trapper gives you a little of that, but the object is simply to keep piling on those roots and dazes, so it has no real archer "feel" to it...unless i can pop off the occasional Aimed Shot. Aaaah...the DPS spike! Ranged stuff for Trappers is merely a cog in the machine of the perma-stun and perma-root rotation.
God...how I miss Cordon and Plant Growth!
So I'm hoping that now I'm learning a new paragon path, some balance will eventually be restored so that I can re-spec my guy between trees, and maybe even level an up an alt or two for easy switch-off (although I hate the prospect of the grind involved). Hell...I may even re-spec back and forth a few times simply to see if playing Trapper has made me a better Archer. I certainly feel that playing as a hybrid Archer type made the jump into Trapper much smoother for me.
One thing I will emphasize about the Trapper tree is this. Although I did play a very hybrid style as an archer (stance switched and used melee powers a lot), the Trapper paragon definitely makes the best and highest use of the HR's stance switching abilities, which is truly at the heart of the class concept. This I will gladly concede. I understand why the Devs set it up this way. It is WAI.
That said, a well-geared and highly-skilled Trapper is perhaps a bit OP at present, and Archer is the aforementioned glass cannon...always getting no love. Some balance would be nice.
Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying Trapper should be nerfed. You still have to be damned good to be truly effective at it...especially in higher-level PvP. But the Archer tree, as so well discussed in this very thread, is in dire need of help. I believe something along a 50% increase in base damage along with, some significant defensive buff to help with the weak and squishy nature of the build would be about right. Maybe replacing one of the crappier feats (Keen Eye? Hasty Retreat? Stormcaller's Arrow?) with something that gives a significant full-time boost to deflection? Coupled with Lone Wolf passive, that would do an awful lot to help the build become more viable.
We shall see.
The change, the differece itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Without dwelling into how broken the Trappers are currently, at least the difference in playstyle means the devs have got the general "premise" of the class right. This sort of difference can be also experienced very dramatically with the TRs -- the Sabos, Execs, and Scoundrels all play out very differently, almost as much as playing a totally different class. I've actually experienced some 'famous' PvP guild members calling me out as "having no clue how to play a TR", the funny part being that in truth, the guy basically had seen only Sabos at work, and thus had no idea how other TRs played out in actual combat. Ofcourse he was welcome to keep that opinion to himself after I've countlessly proven his lack of knowledge by knocking him out and successfully contesting the node he was guarding, time after time, but I digress.
The difference is a good thing. IMO each of the 3 paths can be roughly summarized as:
Now the problem starts. The reality of NW combat doesn't really support medium~long range fights in that;
(a) Almost every class has so many gap-closing powers that can cut down on your range advantage in an instant.
(b) As opposed to above, ironically, the HR has only one gap-widening power, and that takes up an encounter slot to be used as a low-damage, utility power, when the HR class already has such a low damage in the first place
(c) The Archery tree, has very little means of self-defense in the first place, which, design-wise, strongly implies that the advantage of distance to your target --as in the "gun vs knife logic" -- is what the devs have intented to be used as your main defense factor (hence the run-speed increase, hence feats like Stillness of the Forest...)
(d) Almost every feat in the Archery tree is associated with ranged attacks. Yes, of course, this does not necessarily mean long-range, as you can always pucker in a ranged attack at point-blanck range as well. However, like mentioned above the problem of self-defense necessitates range to be maintained
Ironically, once the distance is so easily closed-in, this distance never grows again, even with powers like Marauder's it only provides mere seconds of distance before it is closed in, and then the Archery HR will be mixed up into close~medium range again.. and at this point your strongest advantages are systematically dead. You are forced into a close-quarters combat with some of the major feats like Stillness of the Forest becoming totally useless after the initial few seconds of the fight, never to be used again, as well as one of your thematically/conceptually/theoretically most powerful attacks, ideal to be used with the Archery feats, also become useless.
Of all the powers, Aimed Shot is theoretically the most ideal power to be used with Archery feats. Except for some reason, while the developers did not think to implement a "spellcasting" or "concentration" factor with spell casters (and as a result all of their powers activate immediately) they implemented this "aim" factor with Aimed Shot... and thus, even the slightest of damage, any one of those trashy, small tick of damage induced by boons, any smallest DoT cast upon you will simply render this attack useless. Aimed Shot is so useless, that it has actually become something of a joke -- as in you can always see who is a newbie HR... just see who is using Aimed Shot and bam! He's 9 times out of 10, a newbie".
I've tried so hard to make Aimed Shot work, and this is such a difficult job. And more's the pity, because I've discovered a setup (which I have personally named "Tankbuster Setup") that with the proper setting, can be used to down even Palys. I'm not at a spectacularl level of gear right now, but I record around 90~110k per Aimed Shot against combat dummies. In actual combat, against even BiS level Palys I can deal around 25k ~ 30k damage per pop when it hits square. Sounds useful? Only if you can manage the almost impossible uphill battle of getting it to fire off in the first place.
So, in the end, the most ideal situation in PvP is when you are totally left alone to free-deal your damage as you like, and this almost never happens. Everytime you are drawn into either a 1v1 or 1v many situation, into a close-quarters fight where you lose all your path's unique traits and strengths, where you spend so much time trying to get away and avoid attacks that the frequency of your attacks are so low, that your damage buffs to ranged attacks don't matter. As ralexinor commented in some other thread, Archery is actually, in the practical sense, the lowest in DPS because you don't get a chance to be able to deal your DPS, because the PvP environment is impossible and it never lets you do that. Archery HRs are ALWAYS forced to fight outside their element, their distance of liking, and always forced outside their element, into a close-combat situation.
In the end, the only mildly successful set-up is just a Trapper-like setup using Crushing Roots and rooting encounters, which, at that point you have to wonder, "If I'm using mainly root powers and bulsheet OP class feature to constantly daze them all the time in a near-melee distance, then why in the world am I playing Archery in the first place?"
This, is the affliction all Archery HRs are facing, especially in PvP, and Archery doesn't even work well in PvE -- just a facepalm after facepalm even in PvE, especially lair quests at ToD level (lv73 enemies).
(ps) Don't even get me started when you meet a CW face-to-face. Without any major CCs, with their single rotations knocking off 1/4 chunks of your HP, as you try and pucker away with the mediocre damage attacks.
IMO, the first and foremost thing they have to fix is Aimed Shot. If anything needs piercing damage, this power does.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Grats! What companion did you use?
I have recently considered whether Pathfinder won't yield me more damage than Stormwarden, which I have played from the start. My single-target damage is noticeable against Lostmauth, where I can be several millions behind the leading damage-dealers before the fight but overtake them in that fight. Even in dungeons like eToS I focus more on single targets than spam Split Shot with Twin-Blade Storm as active class feature. Even with this set-up I don't get close to CWs or GWFs when it comes to trash mobs. The only SW ability I generally use is TBS but only for trash as I switch to Lone Wolf for boss fights. I used Split the Sky religiously prior to Mod 6 but have since dropped it in favour of Cordon. I just don't know whether SW is worth using just for TBS, even if the RoA/CoA combo works well.
Thoughts?
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I don't know about pathfinder, I actually use Stormstep action on bosses to have some extra seconds on my encounters, and TBS everywhere else. I've been trying to set up Aimed shot on boss battles so I don't know if careful attack would increase my overall dps.
Ocasionally I still use split the sky, more for it's melee part, but I find myself using Longstrider, cordon and rain most of the times when on a party, and take off cordon for Thorn ward on boss fights (it activates Lostmauth on every crit).
In the end I wouldn't change to pathfinder only because of soloing reasons (using TBS and CR now).
About Stormstep Action: I still don't think it's a bad class feature even after it was obliterated with the nerfhammer, although I think it works best with Disruptive Shot, which only costs 25% AP and has a 7-sec CD for Archers. It's not effective enough with any other dailies and I always use Seismic Shot as Archer.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Rock on, twangers!
NW-DM9Pj62ZK 'Bear with Me'
NW-DOPPZAYKQ 'Retirement Plans'
NW-DKJMLS8OQ 'Sleepy in Cea Tull'
Running with a defender companion who has threat generation and Loyal Defender gear makes life much easier for me as I hardly ever pull aggro from my companion.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
NW-DM9Pj62ZK 'Bear with Me'
NW-DOPPZAYKQ 'Retirement Plans'
NW-DKJMLS8OQ 'Sleepy in Cea Tull'
At least, IIRC, that is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.