So why do we even have the defense stat

herpnderp2

Should just give us like 50k more hp on each armor piece. :rolleyes:

Also noteworthy: Why do we even have HP pots?

Should just give us 50k defense pots :rolleyes:

hustin1

I've been really concerned about the high-HP-pool gear ever since it was introduced. Not only does it render all existing gear useless (*cough* Draconic Templar *cough*) but it also paints the designers into a corner. They can't ever go back to non-HP-pool gear as long as the new gear is around, because no one would ever switch back -- at least not without a *hugely* compelling reason.

I honestly and truly believe that going the high-HP route was a terrible design mistake, but unfortunately I don't see an easy way to undo it short of performing a mass-change where the HP pools get removed from the gear *and* enemy damage goes back to mod-5 levels. Still, that might actually satisfy more players than not.

tomiotar

U guys keep missing the big picture. As ive already comment on several thread the reason for the big HP pool+useless HP potions for that pool has the basic idea of forcing the people to buy the Stone of Health. If u go free to play u dont get heals, if u pay u get heals.

looomis

hustin1 wrote: »

the high-HP route was a terrible design mistake

They could just remodel everything for the next mod, they already know how not to do it


I think increasing the hp pool was the only way to bring players into changing all their gear. Who buys stone of health? My GF is either at 100% hp or at 0%.

schietindebux

They could just remodel everything for the next mod, they already know how not to do it
I think increasing the hp pool was the only way to bring players into changing all their gear. Who buys stone of health? My GF is either at 100% hp or at 0%.

just buffing the stats would have be enough, but in that case old setboni would probably disbalance the situation again.
I think they wanted to get rid of the tons of unbalanced broken sets and setboni that made classes imbalenced, a virtual reset and see how the class deals with the situation without boni ---> TR bonus perma stealth, sure nothing changed they even do perma, iliabruen broken set for warlock, DC high profet setbonus that was pre mod 6 BIS in case of damagedealing and so on
next step (if i was a dev) balance classes
then implement new content and armor with setboni (to get back to step on)

mehguy138

looomis wrote: »

My GF is either at 100% hp or at 0%.

This is my biggest problem with M6 PvE. I'm alway getting one shot despite all the DR buffs I have.

twilightwatchman

Huge HP pools on gear also unbalances the classes by eliminating the relevance of Con.

phoenix1021

They could have just increased base health from level 61+ and removed the old set bonuses, but then people would have cried murder cause items changed mid-game. So now we have this mess...

burkaanc

hustin1 wrote: »

I honestly and truly believe that going the high-HP route was a terrible design mistake, but unfortunately I don't see an easy way to undo it short of performing a mass-change where the HP pools get removed from the gear *and* enemy damage goes back to mod-5 levels. Still, that might actually satisfy more players than not.

so you want to make game the useless boring pile of **** it was back in mod5 ?

the damage to hp ratio was way off before, a gwf could hit for 5x his own hp without any party buffs, now its more like 2~3 times, ppl constantly got 1shot in pvp, and the higher hp pool makes % chance life steal more usable

they need to change con to affect hp from gear and thats it

arabatur

burkaanc wrote: »

so you want to make game the useless boring pile of **** it was back in mod5 ?

For you maybe, but the vast majority don't like the Mod 6 changes. Not everyone wants to l2p(ay)

burkaanc

arabatur wrote: »

For you maybe, but the vast majority don't like the Mod 6 changes. Not everyone wants to l2p(ay)

for me and most players i care about(guild, friends etc.)

lordrhavin

The lvl60 gear was nice and (partly) well thought of in theory. The programmers didnt manage to implement it as it was planned, so instead of hiring someone that has a more profund ability to do code and math, they changed the system to something that they could understand. Everything else would have included more than just elementary arithmetic, and i dont think they know how to handle it. You know, one could either try to come up with balance by chance or simply calculate what the balanced value of a feature would be. They failed

magnusolam

burkaanc wrote: »

for me and most players i care about(guild, friends etc.)

You may nor care about the majority of users, but remember :

If it ain't fun they won't play.
If they don't play they won't pay.
If they don't pay, you won't play.

mrvincent1959

To the TC's point - it is very unfortunate that this turned into a "one stat" video game. Between the new stat curve and the soft caps on encounter recovery, we are relegated to stacking HP. The game is in a very serious state right now. I hope they come up with a plan of action that makes every stat we add to actually matter.

tomiotar

burkaanc wrote: »

for me and most players i care about(guild, friends etc.)

Well, i dont care about u either so...

iandarksword

Gear that inflates Hit Points does nothing but provide bigger numbers. Better armor, (at least in the D&D universe) has always meant higher Armor Class and being more resistant to damage, not simply stacking the Hit Points to be burned off. Neither does it justify making enemy damage reach 100,000. In a sense, they're just throwing bigger numbers and ignoring the mechanics of the game system they are basing their game on. The current gear makes Constitution and Armor Class irrelevant, two core D&D statistics. I'd rather see Armor Class values reach double digits and provide resistances versus certain attack mechanics, (Fire, Cold, Slashing, etc.) than see players with 1,000,000 Hit Points. (Yes, 1,000,000 is an inflated value, but at the current pace it isn't out of the question.)

kaiserschmarrn

greyloche wrote: »

A wise Powrie once said

Healed, or Healed, a good health potion there is not

Same. My Paladin is almost untouchable in IWD, except for the Black Ice Beholder and his gang. But in most dungeons it's either no damage or getting one shotted out of the blue.

instynctive

I have so many issues with the new "everyone has to wear THIS set to survive" mentality.

Armor should give minimal HP bonuses. Here's why: armor is for PROTECTION (defense), not health (hit points). Obviously no one who thought out this insanity has even seen, let alone worn armor (or played the tabletop game... this whole thing smacks f "So I wonder what WoW is up to.. oh, let's do it that way!")

Regardless...

While I love seeing those 5- and 6-digit orange numbers pop up on the screen while I'm fighting, it's utter insanity, and no need for it. But hey, WoW let you do thousands and thousands of points of damage, so we gotta keep up with that, right? Any *real* D&Der would be ecstatic to crit for 20 or 25 points of damage. Were my GWF on paper (which I'm strongly thinking of transferring him there to compare and contrast), the base damage of his axe is 1d8... that's right, before magic and modifiers, a max of 8 points of damage.

I can already hear the uber733ts crying over only doing 8 points of damage. Or having a max of 200 HP. Or the massive confusion over having a negative armor class (back when AC actually meant something).

But, as it is, trash mobs hit for more damage and can take more damage than an adult dragon or the Tarrasque (who remembers those? lol). Game formulas have gone from straightforward and simple mathematics to something a person would need a degree in advanced physics to understand.

You know what? This alone is why the game is so slow, so broken. Things have become overly complicated, the math has become overly convoluted. Stats have so very little meaning to modifiers and combat. And, instead of coming up with more creative ways to continue making the game harder (sorry, but any idiot can throw massive mobs at characters.. that's done every day in the Foundry), everything gets multiplied by 10 or 100.


But, in the meanwhile, I'll continue to run around in-game, wearing armor that has more hit points than my old gaming group had, combined.

Multiplied by 10.

quspiv

We have defense to make armor pen useful

grabmoore

tomiotar wrote: »

U guys keep missing the big picture. As ive already comment on several thread the reason for the big HP pool+useless HP potions for that pool has the basic idea of forcing the people to buy the Stone of Health. If u go free to play u dont get heals, if u pay u get heals.

How would that work? We have infinite supply on Greater Stone of Health ever since Caturday. Why else do you think people are offering health stones for 100-200k? There is no need to pay and there never will be.

suicidalgodot

hustin1 wrote: »

[...]

I honestly and truly believe that going the high-HP route was a terrible design mistake, but unfortunately I don't see an easy way to undo it short of performing a mass-change where the HP pools get removed from the gear *and* enemy damage goes back to mod-5 levels. Still, that might actually satisfy more players than not.

Actually it would be fairly easy to "go back": introduce 70-fied versions of the old T1/T2/... gear with similar HP buffs - and their old set bonus.

But at least some players love the set bonus gone - that way they can "freely choose". As if they couldn't before. It's simply a thing of min-maxing like everything else. But I'm digressing...

ghoulz66

quspiv wrote: »

We have defense to make armor pen useful

Got chars with 7% DR from defense. ArP isn't helping much...

hustin1

There are more elegant ways to deal with the set-bonus issue, like capping the total bonus, scaling it to level-60 levels, etc. They didn't have to make all equipment obsolete. They really need to start following the K.I.S.S. rule.

lilhamlet

Let me preface what I say with my belief that there is a multitude of errors in how Mod 6 functions and has been designed, and in agreement with the OP, the new defense curve is a joke. There really is no difference in the defense of a CW, a DC, or a GWF now due to the fact that my 5k defense is giving me a whopping... 18% DR.... oooh.... A CW running shield is getting more than that after the first hit has been taken. The AC scaling of .5% DR per AC point is an absolute joke.

As to set bonuses, don't judge them too harshly on using the increased HP requirement to kill them off. I think they've been trying to re-balance and force out the set bonuses for a while. Right now is just the first time that they are actually succeeding in that.

Just consider that the Draconic Templar sets had much more modest bonuses AND added HP, but ppl still would not drop their High Vizier, High Prophet, Avatar of War, Royal Guard, or Accursed Diabolist sets anyway. The bonuses provided by these sets FAR outweighed any minor power with a HP bonus.

The set bonuses were always overpowered and completely imbalanced, so the new paradigm, you see, ensures their obsolescence. I'm pretty sure they'll bring back minor set bonuses (they still have them for artifact gear), but they'll never be the game-breaking designs we had seen before, which is probably best for this game.

To the original point, I'm hoping they rescale defense again, or provide a better DR per point of AC so that there is a relevance to these stats.

Note: I melted down my full Profound Righteous, Purified Black Ice, AND my Draconic Templar sets just this week, so it's not like I don't know what it's like to grind for all that and it to now be worthless.

lilhamlet

Just as a thought, if devs really wanted to differentiate the defense between all classes, AC could be made into a multiplicative scalar to your DR from defense, rather than a flat bonus to it. This way, a CW compared with a GF will always have a lesser DR given the same defense stat, to reflect cloth versus plate. I hope a dev reads this for consideration.

suicidalgodot

lilhamlet wrote: »

[...]
Just consider that the Draconic Templar sets had much more modest bonuses AND added HP, but ppl still would not drop their High Vizier, High Prophet, Avatar of War, Royal Guard, or Accursed Diabolist sets anyway. The bonuses provided by these sets FAR outweighed any minor power with a HP bonus.
[...]

But wouldn't that job been done better and with less clamour, if they'd just simply had _reduced_ these bonuses?

Also, what then does one think of their move to, on the other side, buff the Weapon enchantments bonus to ridiculous heights???

Currently, we're basically all wearing stuff that buffs our offense, and gives us hit points. Defense has become meaningless, at least when soloing. And in the party, it's more dependent on getting the right buffers to come along.

But for solo play, where it would matter the most, probably, the path to good survivability is about as straight as a plate of spaghetti...

lilhamlet

suicidalgodot wrote: »

But wouldn't that job been done better and with less clamour, if they'd just simply had _reduced_ these bonuses?

How often have you read the forums? There's clamour for things as simple as "This player won't play his class the way I tell him to!" LOL

Regardless of how they would have approached it, people would have been bothered. The way they did do it addresses their objective for PvE AND while still allowing people to dip their foot into PvP without getting one-shot while having to deal with the new enchantments. (Remember, to get gear with tenacity, one has to have done PvP, so the added HP opens the door for more players.)

suicidalgodot wrote: »

Also, what then does one think of their move to, on the other side, buff the Weapon enchantments bonus to ridiculous heights???

As to this, IMO this is entirely about monetization. The new scale of power offered by enchantments makes them much more attractive, to be competitive in the game whether PvE or, moreso, PvP. With the slim chance of upgrading enchants, one would need a coalescent ward which will run $10 a piece. Not to mention that many of the lower level enchants you'd get through lockboxes. Even to purchase them in the Auction House would require AD to burn, and that could lead to more Zen purchases just to use for ZAX.

Ultimately this game is a business, with employees to pay, and they need to monetize where they can. Just be happy that they don't have the Candy Crush model, "Oh, you died. You'll have to wait 30 min to respawn OR you can pay us now to revive immediately."

hawkeyel

Ultimately this game is a business, with employees to pay, and they need to monetize where they can. Just be happy that they don't have the Candy Crush model, "Oh, you died. You'll have to wait 30 min to respawn OR you can pay us now to revive immediately." They all ready make us pay for a Soul Forge or you can go all the way back to a camp fire.

gramps5scorpion

Ya, that's a joke in itself! Everytime I use a potion, it starts my stone of health timer as well which makes it unusable if I have just used a potion. The potions you can but with your celestial coins don't work either. Confirmed by taking a screen shot of my stats before using the potion then again after and nothing changed. Tired of this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!