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lordrhavin
Member Posts: 160 Arc User
Well, i think there can be no doubt about that something's gone slighly sub-optimal. But i think there are many here that see potential in this game. You've done a great game but it has issues with network-client communication and with sourcecode bugs that YOU have to solve. But it also has issues with balancing classes against each other and with balancing powers and character development.
Let us help.
You have people that LIKE this game. Tell us the formulas. If you hesitate because you think it will give people to much insight into the game and might help them exploit something, you already chose the wrong path, because obscurity wont help you. If the formula can be exploited, it needs to get corrected. Dont fight the symptoms, fight the disease.
You have people here that are programmers, that are roleplayers and that do have profund knowledge of
mathematics. If some class has power P with cooldown c that is doing damage d on unweighted area w(A) than the balanced value v of this power is:
v(P) = d * w(A) * 1s / c
If you now want to balance areas of effect powers against single target powers, you need to know just how great the chances are that you have x targets in area A. That can be done by evidence; an area of the doubled size does not neccessarily hit the doubled number of targets, but you have the servers, you can log this.
Write a simple routine that calculates the average over a couple of days for small cones, bigger cones and circles of about 3 sizes, then set x, y and z in the following formula to constants that come near your tested results; it wont be perfect but it will be close enough:
w(A) = A*x/1m²+(A^0.5)*y/1m+z
For single target effects: w(A) = 1. Now all you need to do to perfectly balance all damage doing powers in game is to make sure that v(P) and it's requirement/effords e scale constant for all powers:
∀P : v(P) / e(P) = 1.
e(P) now has to incorporate characters points spend to get this power, the overall difficulty to activate it and so on. And IF you want to have any curve that so higher efford yields not quite proportional higher results, you can scale it here:
∀P : v(P) / e(P)^q = 1.
With the single scaling factor q (0.5.…2) that is applied to all balanced relations and therefore wont render anything owerpowered.
You can do this with damage, with healing, with stats and buffs. It doesnt matter if v(P) actually deals damage or heals it, the relation to it's efford, its value and its cooldown has to be balanced. Once you have formulas that are balanced, you can make any character class you might imagine with any paragon-path you think valid and there will be no wrong skilling and no perfect build anymore. There will be true diversity.
Let us help. Give us the formulas, let us figure out, concentrate on the engine.
Let us help.
You have people that LIKE this game. Tell us the formulas. If you hesitate because you think it will give people to much insight into the game and might help them exploit something, you already chose the wrong path, because obscurity wont help you. If the formula can be exploited, it needs to get corrected. Dont fight the symptoms, fight the disease.
You have people here that are programmers, that are roleplayers and that do have profund knowledge of
mathematics. If some class has power P with cooldown c that is doing damage d on unweighted area w(A) than the balanced value v of this power is:
v(P) = d * w(A) * 1s / c
If you now want to balance areas of effect powers against single target powers, you need to know just how great the chances are that you have x targets in area A. That can be done by evidence; an area of the doubled size does not neccessarily hit the doubled number of targets, but you have the servers, you can log this.
Write a simple routine that calculates the average over a couple of days for small cones, bigger cones and circles of about 3 sizes, then set x, y and z in the following formula to constants that come near your tested results; it wont be perfect but it will be close enough:
w(A) = A*x/1m²+(A^0.5)*y/1m+z
For single target effects: w(A) = 1. Now all you need to do to perfectly balance all damage doing powers in game is to make sure that v(P) and it's requirement/effords e scale constant for all powers:
∀P : v(P) / e(P) = 1.
e(P) now has to incorporate characters points spend to get this power, the overall difficulty to activate it and so on. And IF you want to have any curve that so higher efford yields not quite proportional higher results, you can scale it here:
∀P : v(P) / e(P)^q = 1.
With the single scaling factor q (0.5.…2) that is applied to all balanced relations and therefore wont render anything owerpowered.
You can do this with damage, with healing, with stats and buffs. It doesnt matter if v(P) actually deals damage or heals it, the relation to it's efford, its value and its cooldown has to be balanced. Once you have formulas that are balanced, you can make any character class you might imagine with any paragon-path you think valid and there will be no wrong skilling and no perfect build anymore. There will be true diversity.
Let us help. Give us the formulas, let us figure out, concentrate on the engine.
Post edited by lordrhavin on
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Comments
What does that mean?
I am a curious lover of life... and more.
To do this would help the game grow, because we all would become a part of it and we would love to see it grow.
This. A million times over. It's way past time to get away from being another WoW clone and really let this game live up to its full potential.
I chose to play this game, as opposed to other F2P MMOs, because it's based in the D&D universe.. a place that I know well, and love... a place that has been utterly decimated. I don't know if it's through laziness, people not understanding the game or if it's been driven by the almighty dollar, but to quote the angry dwarf in Icespire: "Something must be done!"
Sadly, what's been done cannot be undone. But we (players and devs alike) can move on to bigger and better things and make Mod 7 one that will be so amazing, so awesome and so epic that it completely overshadows the HAMSTER that is Mod 6, and blows away the competition.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
Dont think either-or. Balance. The problem with all stupid discussion if the Pants of Awesome Dancing should have AC0 or AC1 is that no one comes up the idea they might have AC0.73.
∀P : v(P) / e(P)^q = 1.
Let players invest up to 4 points in a power? Why think so one-dimensional?? Let the Power rise in power as they use them. It's a formula. Your abillity to cast Friendzone of Enchanted HAMSTER meigt be 35.6% and just update to 35.7% after you next-time use it. Or if you want points, dont give the players 70 for level 70. give them 3000, let them put up to 100 per power. Dont tell them: Level 2 +20% damage. Tell them DamageFactor = ((PowerLevel +10)^0.32)-1.089 for PowerLevel [0…100].
f(x) = ((x+10)^0.32)-1.089
Look here, its -> beautiful <-.
but as a lot of D&D content is player created, this game could go more open, use the foundry to the fullest, allow gamer help with a lot of technical stuff. im sure there are ppl who would happily create campaigns, just to see them in game, who could make those campaigns using extended foundry and who could help dealing with balancing and other issues, some ppl who would use this to get noticed in the industry, creating awesome content in the process , like this skyrim modder http://vr-zone.com/articles/bungie-bethesda-hires-talented-skyrim-modder/65450.html
though there might be a problem with ppl who want everything now and for free
The question is: WHY??
dunno, the post was in preview forum in 1st 1/3rd of the mod6 preview
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
I think there is some arcane majesty to mathematics, but we are talking the corporate world here. Copy and paste, manufacture, everything with a predetermined, profit maximized template.
I would be shocked if most of the development on this game was done by those who actually know "the formulas". More likely that formula was designed to be used by people to flesh out the game and maintain it. I think the engineers are long gone and what we have now are technicians to keep the machine running, repair it as necessary, but that is it.
This is a great idea. They did it for D&D 5th edition and look how great that turned out! The actual players playtested and the RPG guys put it together with the input from players.
Long live THAC0!!!!!
Write a simple routine that calculates the average over a couple of days for small cones, bigger cones and circles of about 3 sizes, then set x, y and z in the following formula to constants that come near your tested results; it wont be perfect but it will be close enough:"
if i understand right (and that dont include formulas... so... my bad) the big problem here is the cc (and threat/sinergy between classes). in the end you will do just a average between 2 differents gameplays, (a good and a terrible performance).
for exemple. if you try balance powers like rain of arrows in a party when you have cws spamming imolation (enemies close all the time) and compare to other when the cws spam opressive force (enemies spread all the time). in the end you will need made a average between the 2 perfomances. and the same will be made between cws.
in the end you will have the same old gap, and that gap will demand super buffs and... long story short: m6. THAT if I understand correctly.