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Who should be the "Puller"?
anyolname716
Member Posts: 47
So as I take my time and learn the game that is Neverwinter, I end up in a lot of random groups for the daily Skirmish and dungeon. I see a common "lack" of skill that I attribute to newer players that may not have the experience with this type of game. Namely rushing right into a room and grabbing aggro on every mob in the area. This is not a FPS like CoD nor is it Diablo, where you might be able to survive such a train of adds. More often than not, this leads to a wipe of the entire party. So keep in mind that even though they are linear maps, you still need to pull to the group at times.
So that brings me back the the title of the post. Who should be the puller? Personally, regardless of class, I would go with the person who is the most "Experienced". By experience, I'm not talking about actual level...but who is most familiar with this type of game. People who have played other games like Neverwinter(EQ, WOW, RS) know the basics of how to pull, and can quickly figure out the paths of targets here(Regardless of class). This would teach the new console players how to do this...and the avoid the aforementioned train and group death.
So, with this logic in mind...who do you want pulling for your group and why?
So that brings me back the the title of the post. Who should be the puller? Personally, regardless of class, I would go with the person who is the most "Experienced". By experience, I'm not talking about actual level...but who is most familiar with this type of game. People who have played other games like Neverwinter(EQ, WOW, RS) know the basics of how to pull, and can quickly figure out the paths of targets here(Regardless of class). This would teach the new console players how to do this...and the avoid the aforementioned train and group death.
So, with this logic in mind...who do you want pulling for your group and why?
Post edited by anyolname716 on
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The vast majority of damage is 100% avoidable, the rest can be soaked up with potions that are plentiful and on short cool down. Prior to heroics there is no trinity. This isn't Everquest, it isn't even Vanilla WoW, ease up, relax, have fun, and let us have fun.
I was told numerous times leveling my GWF, that I'd have to have better gear than one of the other classes before it paid off. While that may not be exactly true, it IS easier to just do almost all content with DD and maybe one DC.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
In many, many traditional MMO's, it's common to have to pull mobs in small doses in order to control the fight. I had the exact same discussion with my first guild, trying to figure out who was pulling. It just so happens that NWO is on easy mode, and there is no need for more complex strategies or prior planning. Roles rarely exist. We all just run in and smash.
It's one of the reasons why NWO is fun ... and also one of the reasons many don't see it as being a 'great' MMO.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
If somebody besides the tank hits something first the tank will have to work much harder to generate enough aggro to remove the threat from that person. This has always been a big issue due to many players just haphazardly running ahead and attacking things without understanding or giving consideration to the consequences.
In recent modules this has become less problematic due to the fact content was pretty trivialized but in Module 6 players are having to relearn this reality.
So the answer to the question is the Guardian Fighter or the tank of the dungeon should be the one pulling aggro. It just doesn't always happen that way, though.
That being said veteran pc mmo gamers will automatically know when to pull and when not to however even in our community there are those who think that pulling everything to rush through everything is the smartest thing even though they wipe and there are still some people who think that this game's healer class is actually just like the raid healer class in all of the trinity MMOs out there. They have yet to learn that this game has Trinity Lite which means yeah you can build a support role but they aren't responsible for if you live!
There is also an issue that's always existed with targeting with the cleric class. They really need to make the spells smarter. As a vet PC cleric I can tell you that these spells need to automatically go to the people who need them the most the lowest health. All of the other trinity games out there with healing spells require that certain spells be smarter like this in order to maintain a level of healing that targets those in the group that need it the most especially with AOE or area heals! This game is no different and they really need to make this change for the DC class.
Pulling however is something that's used when A: the class can withstand alot of damage before getting into a danger zone or B: you can drop aggro easily.
This game has no aggro dropping mechanics so therefore the system they use doesn't allow for aggro control and pulling becomes less of an issue.
If you have a CW or a decent healer, you should not have to worry about who pulls so long as everyone is alert and ready. That being said, 90% of the CW I come across do not play the way they are expected to play (conduit of ice on RB, sudden storm, icy terrain, and steal time). For those of who want to say, "expected by who? you can't tell me how to play my class or game!" try a boss fight with that setup on your CW and you will no longer think the game is hard or that you need a tank.
As far as tanking goes, a tank is never concerned with holding aggro on EVERYTHING. If you do happen to have a tank in your group, he will likely struggle to hold aggro anyway. Our tank has a 15k gear score and has a full damage-based build to help hold aggro because the defensive build was useless for him (damage increases threat generation). Even now, he struggles to hold aggro. Instead, he focuses on maintaining aggro on the "tough" mobs of each trash pull. The smaller mobs die so quickly anyway, it is not worth his time to worry about them.
Point being, a group should not have to kick 15 people waiting on a tank. A healer (DC or SW) should not refuse to move until the group picks up a tank. Instead, people should learn how to adjust and cooperate. Most people playing tanks right now are probably just waiting for Mod 6 anyway.
Note: This is not specific to gearscore either. I started running T2 with my DC and then geared my TR. When we were fresh 60s just getting into T2, we had no issues clearing content without a tank and having whomever wanted to pull, go ahead and pull. Groups will eventually learn that you do not have to pull everything and you do not have to follow the trial indicator to clear dungeons.
Quite the contrary, it has no aggro dropping mechanics which means pulling becomes all the more important as stated in my post.
Aggro control absolutely exists. Just because you can't be stupid, run into a large group, AoE blast them for "tons of damage" and then press a magic button to remove aggro doesn't mean control doesn't exist. Control exists by allowing the tank to get the initial aggro or controlling your DPS afterwards to allow them to gain control.
Not this is really important, but TR stealth drops aggro. I run into a large group, AoE blast them for tons of damage, and then I press the magic button known as RB. I have never played an mmorpg in which you had to check, control, or otherwise limit dps simply because the tank could not hold aggro.
Tanking in this game is very different from other games but that still remains true for this game--you don't have to ever pull dps to survive or complete content. For example, a GF will not tank a boss during a boss fight. Even if the tank tries to maintain aggro on the boss, they will not deal enough damage to generate enough threat to keep aggro. The tank will instead pull adds off of the dps as the tank is able and will keep aggro on any big adds that spawn during the encounter. On trash pulls, the tank will never worry about grouping all the mobs up and aggro'ing them. Even if a tank does the initial pull, the tank will not maintain aggro. Even if you let the tank solo the boss for the first 25% of the encounter, he will not maintain aggro. Too many people are trying to apply traditional dungeon/group/tank mechanics to this game and it doesn't work like that.
Also, some threat tables seem to reset when there's a teleport / transformation. Also, speed runs, which are common in the PC version, depend on aggro dropping mechanics. There definitely are aggro dropping mechanics.
Additionally, you are looking at tanks as boss fighters here. That's really not the case. They can and do hold aggro against bosses without a lot of adds but generally they are mob aggro in Neverwinter. Rogues and the other strikers are more like skirmishers. They excel in 1v1 combat and can easily dodge boss attacks. They really don't need to be tanked in what consider the traditional sense.
It's the general mobs which require the attention of the tank. They excel in controlling the masses but at the very least often have to choose between a single threat or the masses.
As a pure healing Cleric I approve of this message! HAHAHA I predominately PUG my way through T1/T2 content and more often than not I see Rogues tanking... And I am not sure it can even be called Tanking as I have to heal the heck out of them to keep them alive. Somewhere there was a GF Tank meeting that got moved to a new Tavern at the same time a Rogue meeting was also moved and somehow the meetings got crossed. now a bunch of Rogues are confused thinking they are tanks LOL
I've said this a number of time. Tanks do not tank bosses. Tanks do not even have to tank all the adds. Not sure where you thought I said tanks are boss fighters. I said tanks are useless, as in you do not need them to tank anything.
I have a 60 GF, DC, and TR. As a DC, I will heal anyone who pulls. As a GF, I tend to do large pulls and make sure to stay out front of the TRs and everyone else unless the DC can't keep up; otherwise, I do not care who pulls so long as it does not wipe the party. As a TR, I pull anyway because I can keep myself alive and do not like waiting 10 years for the DC and GF to loot all the greens. That being said, I rarely run with pugs anymore because of that reason.
It will all depend on the group--what your composition is, what personal player skill levels are, and what can be agreed upon in party. (There's a chat function for a reason). If, as a DC or GF, you would like to reasonably control the pace at which the group progresses through the dungeon, simply express such in chat. There's no reason to watch someone die because they pulled (whether on purpose or accidentally) and there's no reason to kick someone who you've not otherwise informed that you would prefer an alternative approach to theirs.
I do not think this thread should be a question of which class should pull, but a question of who has more experience or knowledge to pull. So many groups out there blindly follow the dungeon trail and want to pull everything in sight. If that is you, you definitely should not be leading or pulling.
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This. All of this. Again, I think people are still trying to apply traditional dungeon running/tanking to Neverwinter. It is not the same.