Oh yeah, the TR 2 sec stealth reveal is gone, too. This is mod6 in a nutshell.
This is fairly spot on, I have to agree....
TRs are tankier than tanks. This is due to ITC, and also things like Smoke Bomb as well as bloodbath with Knife's edge.
If Knife's Edge were fixed. That would alleviate the encounter spam that is possible. However the fact a TR can ITC and be damage immune for like 5 + seconds is pretty crazy ONTOP of smoke bomb ONTOP of stealth ONTOP of dodge roll ONTOP of "bloodbath".
CWs: I think this is less of an issue TBH, however I do agree their control + shield + dodges etc all make them a tanky class. The "random white hits" that ensue from dungeons a CW shield will eat most of this making them tankier than tanks where as a GWF, for instance, has NO DR boost and thus cant take ONE hit from white damage. If they are buffed by DC/GF they can take 2-3 hits however they take 1 out of unstoppable then get unstoppable which makes them get 15% more DR? That wont help much...
I dont know the solution though... TRs is simple I think, ITC should work the same in and out of stealth. IN stealth can get some secondary benefit rather that complete immunity. Knife's edge should be fixed too so it doesnt reset CDs.
CWs, not sure. Maybe Shield could do something a little different. What if Shield instead gave a flat 15-25% DR boost on its own layer instead of a "charged" versus "broken" version. So basically shield is always "broken" however what if shield could be "released" and it would BREAK CC? That seems fair. Slotting in Mastery could still give CC immunity as well.
That makes CWs much less tanky and feel squishy however get control break now... Which is HUGE.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited April 2015
(I'll refer to PvE and TRs)
1. Adding icd to the set will turn it useless, it's main worth is on stealth DF. DF attacks are less than 1 sec apart.
Perhaps start with fixes to those looped procs that insta kill stuff. by making it proc only from direct damage skills.
Or limit to one proc per attack tick, to prevent AoE procing on all the mobs.
Yes, those are harder to implement than ICD, but i'm sorry, but lets not start using ICD as duct tape, apply it and you have the cludge fix. Some fixes should be a more thoughtful of the problem and class specific usage. All the fixes i saw so far are so heavy handed they turn things into useless, imo, ICD in this case will go into that category.
2. TR itc: using it from stealth is the most costly thing to DPS a TR can do, it means instead of force criting 200k+ damage and starting SoD it's wasted on a defensible skill and lets not forget that it costs a slot as with shield for CW. This is a heavy price to pay for something you can still can be shot through. Yes, it makes the TR more tanky, but there are trade offs, and they are not negligible.
"If Knife's Edge were fixed. That would alleviate the encounter spam that is possible. However the fact a TR can ITC and be damage immune for like 5 + seconds is pretty crazy ONTOP of smoke bomb ONTOP of stealth ONTOP of dodge roll ONTOP of "bloodbath"."
Please lets not mix things to make points, stealth has nothing to do with damage mitigation, at best it's aggro management, bloodbath is hardly the best thing in PvE (useless compared to everything else - some do not abuse knife edge).
Knife edge is extremely easy to fix, same ICD that was mentioned before, add 2sec ICD and done.
So in example we take an average TR today and put him/her on the scorpions in lostmauth, He most likely overdodge, because missing a dodge = death, and will be at low stamina most of the time, smoke is useless (cc immune), stealthing is not relevant much on bosses so we have itc and bloodbath. And both have heavy tradeoffs compared to a higher dps options.
Please lets consider all aspects, before making drastic changes and 'fixes'.
Addon:
The perma stealth argument is really really moot, stealth has nothing to do with tankines, the whole concept of tankiness is to absorb damage, like the name suggests..
Stealth does not allow it, not in PvP nor in PvE, so please lets get the terms straight, if the reference to PvP than it was discussed to death many times and has a lot to do with occupying enemy players and nothing with absorbing their damage.
If it's an PvE argument, than I want to see a perma TR that tanks any boss now (or holding aggro more than 3 sec).
But because the post that mentioned it has everything about "they are" and hashtag galore I can safely assume it's about PvP, and as constructive as usual...
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
TRs are tankier than tanks. This is due to ITC, and also things like Smoke Bomb as well as bloodbath with Knife's edge.
If Knife's Edge were fixed. That would alleviate the encounter spam that is possible. However the fact a TR can ITC and be damage immune for like 5 + seconds is pretty crazy ONTOP of smoke bomb ONTOP of stealth ONTOP of dodge roll ONTOP of "bloodbath".
I dont know the solution though... TRs is simple I think, ITC should work the same in and out of stealth. IN stealth can get some secondary benefit rather that complete immunity. Knife's edge should be fixed too so it doesnt reset CDs.
ITC is not 5s of complete immunity since mod5. it is 50% DR. Still efficient though.
I was using it before, it was really useful to help the party (ex : someone is killed in an AoE in epic Tuern, but TR can res him). Now, it is only useful as an egoist auto-survival skill, but still something we need to slot if we don't want to be one-shot by the first hit that come in the new mod.
From my point of view, if some power need a rework, it is the class feathure that is the main problem.
stealth is survival skills (and not tanking skills, that is really different)
stealth is damage
stealth is mobility
stealth is everything
everything is stealth
Stealth make TR OP, but lack of stealth make TR useless.
If you think TR is "too much" and want to suggest something, look at how he get bonus instead of what bonus he get.
Why do you think scoundrel is so weak ? Because everything come from stealth, and he do not rely on stealth. THat is why most player don't rely on scoundrel
If ONE single TR can tank an entire party, then there's nothing to discuss but fixing it. (period) PvE, idc anymore, PvE has died with mod 6, PvP is now the only endgame content left and balance there favors TWO classes in way too many ways, namely the TR and the CW. i pointed out why that is and if you don't even PvP, then don't comment on PvP specific flaws. As if they were intended to be overperforming all other classes, give me (us) a break.
I stacked 89.9% resistance ignored, yet TR take no damage, crit/non crit doesn't matter and at the same time THEIR attacks cannot be properly mitigated (piercing dmg). How could one call this 'balanced'?. The same goes for CW, they absorb the highest hits, then usually the attacker's burst is used up and he is left with not much to do against a highly agile, high damage hitting/dotting, supposed to be 'squishy', class.
The observations and requests in my former post, are all spot on.
If you can't PvE it doesn't mean other not capable nor playing, some actually doing it successfully, so please consider it when you make suggestions.
The fact that you don't care about the second aspect ofthe game (and arguably the main aspect) is what makes your suggestions useless and incomplete. Suggest something that works for both and then it will be less arguing and more balancing, and everyone will be happier.
"If ONE single TR can tank an entire party"
TRs can't tank, can survive on a node, yes, tank, no. ITC offers 50% DR + deflect for 4 seconds if activated from stealth. And after those 4 seconds what happens to the tankines ?
Surviving is one thing, absorbing damage is totally different thing.
"if you don't even PvP"
This is an interesting assumption, so lets clear yes I do not PvP since the mod lunched as i see no gain from it, no seals, no glory quests.
In mod5 though i had nothing to do but PvP so i got the **** pirate set, hundreds of seals and hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of glory, match after match. And yet, you ar eright, I do not presume to be top PvPer or actually claim to be good at it, but i do have the basic understanding ( or sure hope so after all the matches), but at least when I'm making suggestions I try to point out the effects of what it will have in PvE and PvP or at least be clear what i'm talking about and do not limit myself to hashtags.
"then don't comment on PvP specific flaws"
Where in your post you actually mentioned that it is about PvP ?
I guessed by the great verbal accomplishment that are typical to the players ( sorry, but it's usually like that, no offense to the exceptions),
though surprisingly you choose to type that way and can actually type the way normal people type too.
And I don't see where i commented about PvP specific issues in my post.
"give me (us) a break."
No problem, but then please make sure your suggestions do not break the class, but are actually balance and considering both PvE and PvP.
You want to remove crit on stealth, no problem, suggest something instead, or lets return to at-wills do not reduce stealth.
Or this request alone will bring back TR to ~mod2 era when i saw TRs in /lfg paying to get a group.
"I stacked 89.9% resistance ignored, yet TR take no damage, crit/non crit doesn't matter and at the same time"
Do you have the log parse? If the 50% DR is added after ArP calculation and not counted in, you ArP mitigated the base defense which is what now days is ~15% and nothing else.. then this should be fixed and the DR counted.
Or if your opponent had the new ArP resistance for tenacity.... if this is the case it has nothing to do with TRs/ITC per se, it means that there is a bigger problem that makes all you ArP useless and you wouldn't break GF/GWF (the right pathes) resistance as well, because all your ArP is gone.
"CW, they absorb the highest hits, then usually the attacker's burst is used up and he is left with not much to do against a highly agile, high damage hitting/dotting, supposed to be 'squishy', class."
Why would anyone will use his high damage attacks first and not destabilize the shield before?
Maybe the issue is to catch them and keep up, and then gap closer / control are the issue and not the shield?
tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited April 2015
Those modifications that you want to see removed with no compensation are what make rogue viable again, after 1 year of uselessness. That is why, even i PvP, remove them will not by itself lead to balance.
What you are looking for is an easy target to get kills in the next module.
Stealth do not improve TR's DPS, it create TR's DPS. Most of our feats, encounters, at-will... benefit from stealth, and that is not a slight boost.
Without it, TR are not damage dealer. Rogue are damage dealer.
stealth is survival skills (and not tanking skills, that is really different)
stealth is damage
stealth is mobility
stealth is everything
everything is stealth
Stealth make TR OP, but lack of stealth make TR useless.
and that is why you can't nerf something and say "it's done", because if you nerf something, you completely remove it.
But I know that I am talking into the wind, you've already stated it...
The fact that you don't care about PvE have nothing to do with you being aPvP player, but rather with your short-sighted perspective.
I am in contact with some elite PvP players who do care about PvE, because they want everyone to be able to enjoy the game, and the same goes for PvE players. Hopefully, not everyone share your vision of things.
my 5 year old daughter can do all the new content on her CW.
You mean that one of the most powerful class of the game can be played efficiently ? No ?...
Are you kidding ? That is incredible...
But that is clearly not the subject here, please, go discussing CW's OPiness in CW's class forum.
Or in the TR's one
Those modifications that you want to see removed with no compensation are what make rogue viable again, after 1 year of uselessness. That is why, even i PvP, remove them will not by itself lead to balance.
What you are looking for is an easy target to get kills in the next module.
Stealth do not improve TR's DPS, it create TR's DPS. Most of our feats, encounters, at-will... benefit from stealth, and that is not a slight boost.
Without it, TR are not damage dealer. Rogue are damage dealer.
and that is why you can't nerf something and say "it's done", because if you nerf something, you completely remove it.
But I know that I am talking into the wind, you've already stated it...
The fact that you don't care about PvE have nothing to do with you being aPvP player, but rather with your short-sighted perspective.
I am in contact with some elite PvP players who do care about PvE, because they want everyone to be able to enjoy the game, and the same goes for PvE players. Hopefully, not everyone share your vision of things.
You mean that one of the most powerful class of the game can be played efficiently ? No ?...
Are you kidding ? That is incredible...
But that is clearly not the subject here, please, go discussing CW's OPiness in CW's class forum.
Here you are in TR's class forum, and you should only talk about TR's OPiness (and of course, it's past years, the one he had spend in hell).
HERE we are not in tr class forum and a good thread is going to the bin once again for a bunch of ...
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited April 2015
My bad...
Indeed, sorry, I was reading both forums at that's where the error occurs.
Sorry, the day was really long...
And for my concern the "out-of-subject" had ended, I have nothing more to say and will not continue, to add fuel to the fire.
HERE we are not in tr class forum and a good thread is going to the bin once again for a bunch of ...
reason all of this got brought up is because SOME classes are able to adjust well to the "difficulty" of PVE dungeons, basically the hard hitting PVE mobs but purely avoiding or controlling which then negates it 100%.
Other classes were given "higher DR" to help them negate the damage which has proven ineffective since some classes negate 100% of damage where as a tank class even negating 50% of the damage ends up still taking 100k+ hits.
This is the SIMPLE way to phrase this and it basically stems from TWO issues:
1) majority of mobs are controllable or kitable allowing ranged classes, CC classes, or classes with immunity frames a massive advantage.
2) Other classes have no tools like this and are just SOL because of the bad "difficulty" design that was implemented.
As discussed before having a larger majority NOT controllable would make a major difference, as well as different variation of mobs that maybe have increased AoE resist and must be "focused". These things make a tank class much more necessary.
ALL of this loops BACK around to 1 issue though.
PVE MOB DAMAGE IS FAR TOO HIGH AND IS A VERY BAD WAY OF SCALING DIFFICULTY.
No, if a class is obviously overperforming and outperforming every other class, due to broken features or skills, then there is no need to compensate a 'fix', with making something else in their already stacked arsenal overpowered. They need tone downs without getting other aspects buffed. Only then we will see some sort of PvP balance.
Again, PvE does not matter to me, my 5 year old daughter can do all the new content on her CW. (shows how much skill said class needs). PvP is a different, more skillful aspect of the game, though.
I guess if you choose to ignore all my points and only to stick to a general stament and how PvE doesn't matter, then I'm humbled, sorry that playing an MMO (in a PvE) setting upset your balance and be grateful for you to show me how you, your 5 years old daughter on her CW and 3 other classes of your choice (please pick as skillful PvPers as you yourself are, we wouldn't want those pesky PvE min/maxers to interfere and 5 CW is ok too, would love to see that) and please show me how you do all t2 in one go with no wipes. Back to back, CC, GWD, ToS, and ofcourse it's about skill so please no 'features' like endless AP gain with the DC feat multiproc, Lostmauth set loopback, geas on cc immune bosses and so on.
If you can please do so before the next patch, We wouldn't want the devs toning down the dungeons to interfere with the skill showcase.
Good luck, really looking forward to watch and learn.
Ps. if you are looking for a bit PvP balance and challenge, perhaps try dota2 / sc2 / CS:S/CS:GS , I've being playing those for years and they are still going strong, there is no relevant PvE aspect there, you wont care about it and we wouldn't care for your thoughts on the matter. Perfect balance.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited April 2015
And here Aryoux summarize everything...
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
PVE MOB DAMAGE IS FAR TOO HIGH AND IS A VERY BAD WAY OF SCALING DIFFICULTY.
I agree with this, its fine for some classes, that can mostly avoid the issue, others it not good at all, trying to even keep a GF up nowadays as a DC is no fun, doing it with gwfs even worse. If TRs didnt have some 100% immune options, and or/insta daze mob pack options, they would be in the same boat. HR combat is alot dead due to this as well, even though they did seem to scale wild medicine up some, (ah the old combat hr! I miss ye, one of my favorite classes in game, gone but not forgotten. )
They seem to have something against melee in this game, or cant quite figure it out, the balance between range options, melee options and in between ones.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
PVE MOB DAMAGE IS FAR TOO HIGH AND IS A VERY BAD WAY OF SCALING DIFFICULTY.
Probably true, but while I have a problem with the skillful PvPer attitude that i quoted earlier, there is truth that up until now the power creep killed PvE, there was no challenge.
And please lets not get back to it!
So if it is a bad way, is there a better suggestion that can be done with the resources of the small studio ?
Or given the the fact that we have those mobs already, how balance can be achived for both aspect ?
Offering ICD or just toning some things up or down doesn't always cut it, and in this case, sorry, but as i posted earlier i think will break more than fix or at least make things useless again.
If TRs didnt have some 100% immune options, and or/insta daze mob pack options.
The only immunity i can think of is bloodbath or courage breaker, both are dailies.
Smoke will kill if done first, it's not instant, dazing is and has limited cone.
And to the OP, imo, perma stealth TRs are the most useless type/class in PvE, about 1 : (5-15) damage compared to a properly speced TR for damage. Better to take GF, they are invaluable now.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited April 2015
Oh please.. my 5 year old daughter can sit there with some classes and hit a few buttons on things that dont matter.. but she cant run any PVE content for group stuff.
There is no corelation in her head on helping group dynamics, or how to pre empt certain situations, she just reacts, even slower then my middle aged fingers can manage.
That is just a lie, at the height of mod 5, my 5 year old, COULD and would do heralds and some other dragon grinding for me, you know super easy stuff. Its not as easy anymore and she would die now.
I miss that though, great to get through stuff I hated doing =P with a passion. I sat her at one of the siege events and she got me a stack or two of RP as well.
I guess if you choose to ignore all my points and only to stick to a general stament and how PvE doesn't matter, then I'm humbled, sorry that playing an MMO (in a PvE) setting upset your balance and be grateful for you to show me how you, your 5 years old daughter on her CW and 3 other classes of your choice (please pick as skillful PvPers as you yourself are, we wouldn't want those pesky PvE min/maxers to interfere and 5 CW is ok too, would love to see that) and please show me how you do all t2 in one go with no wipes. Back to back, CC, GWD, ToS, and ofcourse it's about skill so please no 'features' like endless AP gain with the DC feat multiproc, Lostmauth set loopback, geas on cc immune bosses and so on.
If you can please do so before the next patch, We wouldn't want the devs toning down the dungeons to interfere with the skill showcase.
Good luck, really looking forward to watch and learn.
Ps. if you are looking for a bit PvP balance and challenge, perhaps try dota2 / sc2 / CS:S/CS:GS , I've being playing those for years and they are still going strong, there is no relevant PvE aspect there, you wont care about it and we wouldn't care for your thoughts on the matter. Perfect balance.
Basically that's what they want because there's no middle ground between "allowing any class with any build and any party comp to kill any boss" and "a challenge requiring skill and teamwork". I mean there are some mechanics specifics to given classes that are supposed to work together, like the GF not being killed by npcs in one hit and being healed by the cleric. If damage in dungeons is cut in half then we'll see CWs tanking and kiting stuff, using glass cannon builds again (because the only thing that matters is not being killed in one hit to recover easily), and we can say goodbye to tanks in dungeons. Or we can forget clerics too. And support rangers. And healing warlock as support. Also, stop levelling paladins now because it's going to be completely useless.
Basically, to please one class using one freaking niche build, support should be unnecessary again. No thank you.
Thinking there's a middle ground between being forgiving and a challenge is delusional and ignoring game mechanics and all this kind of request will do is getting the game rolled back to mod 4/5 state.
Basically that's what they want because there's no middle ground between "allowing any class with any build and any party comp to kill any boss" and "a challenge requiring skill and teamwork". I mean there are some mechanics specifics to given classes that are supposed to work together, like the GF not being killed by npcs in one hit and being healed by the cleric. If damage in dungeons is cut in half then we'll see CWs tanking and kiting stuff, using glass cannon builds again (because the only thing that matters is not being killed in one hit to recover easily), and we can say goodbye to tanks in dungeons. Or we can forget clerics too.
Thinking there's a middle ground between being forgiving and a challenge is delusional and ignoring game mechanics and all this kind of request will do is getting the game rolled back to mod 4/5 state.
We have already discussed this... There is ALOT of room to work.
If damage is cut in half, but HALF the mobs are not longer controllable. A CW will die in 3 hits still.... HALF means netting 30k-50k a hit right? So NOW itll REQUIRE MORE teamwork.
A TR wont be able to smoke bomb CC entire groups, a handful of mobs wont be affected and FORCE squishy groups to try and kite more and probably just get ran over.
There is DEFINITELY a middle ground. Harder =/= mobs deal more damage. Carry that idea out and DOUBLE the damage. Youll still have groups that can do the content... But that doesnt make it hard, it just restricts it to certain class mechanics that can do it.
Also AGAIN you can create AOE resistance mobs which FORCE single target damage. You can create "magic resistant" mobs meaning only physical damage hurts them FORCING party diversity. Same with physical resistance mobs etc.
There are a TON of mechanics you can play with to adjust this. As ALSO mentioned before Diablo 3 tried this EXACT thing with "inferno mode" and only half the classes could do it.
Barbarians would post saying "WTF inferno is stupid" and some Wizard posts his SS of him completing the whole thing... "L2P bro" he would say...
It didnt work and its why they changed it. Its plagued by other things but it WAS successful in implementing different tactics required for different mob "buffs" that i think NEverwinter could definitely implement on a lesser level/extent.
We have already discussed this... There is ALOT of room to work.
If damage is cut in half, but HALF the mobs are not longer controllable. A CW will die in 3 hits still.... HALF means netting 30k-50k a hit right? So NOW itll REQUIRE MORE teamwork.
A TR wont be able to smoke bomb CC entire groups, a handful of mobs wont be affected and FORCE squishy groups to try and kite more and probably just get ran over.
There is DEFINITELY a middle ground. Harder =/= mobs deal more damage. Carry that idea out and DOUBLE the damage. Youll still have groups that can do the content... But that doesnt make it hard, it just restricts it to certain class mechanics that can do it.
Also AGAIN you can create AOE resistance mobs which FORCE single target damage. You can create "magic resistant" mobs meaning only physical damage hurts them FORCING party diversity. Same with physical resistance mobs etc.
There are a TON of mechanics you can play with to adjust this. As ALSO mentioned before Diablo 3 tried this EXACT thing with "inferno mode" and only half the classes could do it.
Barbarians would post saying "WTF inferno is stupid" and some Wizard posts his SS of him completing the whole thing... "L2P bro" he would say...
It didnt work and its why they changed it. Its plagued by other things but it WAS successful in implementing different tactics required for different mob "buffs" that i think NEverwinter could definitely implement on a lesser level/extent.
All this is a fallacy. GWFs are top damage dealers again in dungeons. Facts. But only destroyers. Your character isn't useless. It's just a dps character. And it's always been considered as such by cryptic. One GWF filling a dps role in a dungeon is absolutely fine. And they're not as much in trouble as you tink they are. I do play T2s. With GWFs. And since I'm healing I monitor who's taking damage, who triggered his soulforge and who was just standing in red. That's my job after all. And I can tell you that GWFs rarely get killed in one hit except by their own stupidity, as long as support is doing the job - and as long as everyone follows the basic tactical instructions for the fight. I'd rather get a TR if I could to defuse all the ****ing traps but a GWF is a fine choice too as dps.
I think the player base of certain classes need to decide: the high point is that everyone plays in a particular way with a particular build or a certain class should know do everything (buff, debuff, tank, cc, dps).
or maybe both? one class can do everthing (including what is not suposed to do) and other classes need choose one specific way to play.
today you dont need play the game to see what is wrong with these changes; just analyze the "enthusiasts discourse"
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
All this is a fallacy. GWFs are top damage dealers again in dungeons. Facts. But only destroyers. Your character isn't useless. It's just a dps character. And it's always been considered as such by cryptic. One GWF filling a dps role in a dungeon is absolutely fine. And they're not as much in trouble as you tink they are. I do play T2s. With GWFs. And since I'm healing I monitor who's taking damage, who triggered his soulforge and who was just standing in red. That's my job after all. And I can tell you that GWFs rarely get killed in one hit except by their own stupidity, as long as support is doing the job - and as long as everyone follows the strategy. I'd rather get a TR if I could to defuse all the ****ing traps but a GWF is a fine choice too as dps.
Top DPS you dont know what you talk about .
I enter E.LOL from the first encounter untill the final chest i did 50 mill then our CW got disconnected waited around 5 min then we kicked .
We got a HR short vid from boss and baaam intensive laag and boss go down to 10% hp.
I say WTF ....
Dragon fly up i chek fast x what did i see HR done 60 mill in 10-20 sec .
Another story :
I just want to add 1 thing to your list SW's Fabled Iliyanbruen set Deal way to much dmg .
In 30 sec SW can deal ower 20 mill dps on bosses .
We had an SW joined to VT run on last boss cuz our DC rage quit from the laag in VT .
And he just say to us no casket i will burn down valindra.
We finished the boss in 3 min cuz we need to wait on pahse 1 and 2 .
The point is GWF have no positive bugs to deal those insane dmg what CW-DC-HR-SW can do.
We do only 40% more dmg this is all cuz GWF lost too many things crit +high power + Intimidation and he die on every 10 sec .
Btw i have lol set . and 3000 i.lvl full rank 10 lvl 70 full gear +trans enchants.
I have zero problem with dalys all thing are smoth ,until i enter to any dungeon w/o KV or tankadin daly i am dead from 1 hit or 2 hit just insane i dont even think my defense makes anny difference or my deflect .
I got (1 hit) 4 million dmg from Tos endboss wtf not even tankadin daly or my 170k hp cant saved me .
Taking a look at them, thanks. Some are already resolved.
So he is aware, reviewing the list of 5, hopefully this is ONE of them that has been resolved (PVE damage).
To anyone else who thinks about responding to diogene0, save your time. One thing I have learned from playing this game as long as I have and posting here as long as I have is that no matter how obvious something is to everyone, there will ALWAYS be 1-2 players who have a different opinion. A perfect example is with RP for artifact equipment. There was a massive thread not that long ago about this where it was unanimous everyone agreed its stupid to give us new weapons/gear to refine up and NO new ways to really earn the RP for it.
Well, sure enough about page 12 or 15 in, some guy comes in and starts supporting the decision. Its the same here. Its so painfully OBVIOUS its broken, that anyone who is honest about it or who KNOWS, knows...
Its only those that live in a box or "elite-ist" about PVE that want to keep their monopoly on it. I spend probably 20 injury kits per t2 run, through zero fault of my own, I just have to get lucky enough to not have agro when the CC runs out. If I have agro from dealing damage and marking, and there is a gap in CC I insta die. Only with a OP+DC or GF+DC can I live past a few hits. This is NOT "hard" its dumb. There is a difference.
Should PVE REQUIRE teamwork? YES. But should it require Knights Valor + AS to prevent you from getting 1 shot? No.... Its SO painfully obvious there is even a thread about GFs having complaints about damage going through or around block and hitting for 500k+. This should not happen.
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ryoshinetteMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 488Arc User
My personal concern is that the 'fix' wont push us to the other side, like a lot of proposals and complaints they are very general and the fix is to heavy handed.
You asked to fix the mobs damage but your request is general, do I agree that t2 are to steep jump from t1, yes.
Do I think t1 should be nerfed, NO! Most parties still can easly burn Val, and run t1 without DC/GF, it's harder and nothing wrong with it.
So, please, please be precise or there is a saying in the spirit of "beware or you will get what you ask for".
About the 5sec ICD for lostmauth set i wrote earlier, there less heavy handed solution that i believe can work for both PvP and PvE and not make it almost useless.
Only with a OP+DC or GF+DC can I live past a few hits.
So you see the issue is that you want to bring inappropriate parties to the most challenging content in-game. T2s do require a strong support team and it's fine as it is. If you want to go to ToS with a team of 5 GWFs then you're doing it wrong and you're the one to blame.
So you see the issue is that you want to bring inappropriate parties to the most challenging content in-game. T2s do require a strong support team and it's fine as it is. If you want to go to ToS with a team of 5 GWFs then you're doing it wrong and you're the one to blame.
Bro, Im gonna start calling you Red. Why? Because everything you say is a Red Herring. Look it up. Noone ever said 5 GWF party....
Its not even about appropriate parties or not, its NOT about if its possible or not. Its not about "it should require skill" or not.
Its about getting 1 shot. Period. A TANK class specced for max defense,hp,deflection should have the ability to withstand MORE than 1 hit. Period. Not just "With buffs" he can withstand. But on basic mobs withstand. You dont get it Red.... YOu just dont.
As I said before, YOU want to say "hey its doable if you have X group using X abilities, just have a GWF stand in AS + KV on and you wont get 1 shot!"
I am saying "GWFs have a tank path, did you know? Guess what, with AS up as a TANK I get 1 shot WOOHOO!" So no tank GWF can tank, cool beans. What about Destroyer? YES they do good damage. So if you are looking for a DPS and have a tank/heals and enough CC you CAN do one and it even fits IN an "ideal" party. But what about GFs too are they FORCED to have Knights Valor and hide behind block the entire time? Is that "tanking" I dont think so...
I ran my GF back pre any module. Back when dungeons were fun. Were they easy? eh kinda... At first when NOONE had gear even some T1s were difficult and CN definitely was too. Only with evolution of modules, new gear, new enchants, boons etc and inflation did it become a joke.
So no instead of bringing us BACK to around those same levels, where a TANK could run in, and TANK. NOT "hide behind shield" but could take hits and dish hits back out, they give us this "block and STILL die" PVE HAMSTER.
Is it DOABLE? YES! I HAVE DONE IT! BUT ITS STUPID AND NOT FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I literally feel like im wearing cloth as a MAIL wearer stacking ALL defensive stats + Negation. Doesnt matter. Cant even build stacks up because I either take a few hits and die, or never get touched.
When AS is not up, I sprint around like a girl because 1 hit kills me, with 100k HP, with nearl 3k item level. 1 hit kills me and I am not alone.
Ive done the content, gotten several pieces of gear. Its not fun. Its NOT hard and its not what anyone WANTS to play. You dont get a sense of accomplishment from it, you ONLY get frustration even from opening the chest. Why? Because it wasnt skill that got you that.
Get a group, spam CC, the boss fights are VERY easy mechanics and you win.
What SHOULD it be?
Get a balanced group (not 5 of a class) and YES it REQUIRES CC, but it should REQUIRE a TANK - not just "hiding behind block and still dying only to get rezzed up" but TAKING HITS and DEALING HITS.
For this the FIRST STEPS are to reduce PVE mob damage, they should still hurt, but FIRST do that. THEN! Give MORE mobs CC immunity, not just resist. Then see how hard it is, if you want hard content, make the MINORITY of mobs "controllable" or able to be dazed etc.
Now youve got REAL hard content because you cant just spam CC/AoE them all down.
Seeing as the purpose of this thread was to get DEV attention, Ive done that and will no longer be responding. Say what you want, we will see what they do either way further discussion is a moot point.
If you dont get it by now Red, you never will. If it stays as is, have fun in a game with a population of 10 (all your buddies you run with).
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited April 2015
Ok, we made most of the mobs cc immune, what we do with an entire class that was repeatedly attempted to put in the controller part?
It just made half of the new reworked CW obsolete, they will adapt, and we will have again the lean mean dps machine?
Maybe mechanics like enrage, when mobs become immune after a certain damage threshold.
Mixing encounter groups with immune and non immune mobs so everyone has a job...
Mobs that controllable but ignore aggro mechanic and choose their target by some way even if at random. (also ignore GF/OP aggro managment)
Seeing as the purpose of this thread was to get DEV attention, Ive done that and will no longer be responding. Say what you want, we will see what they do either way further discussion is a moot point.
If you dont get it by now Red, you never will. If it stays as is, have fun in a game with a population of 10 (all your buddies you run with).
Your way or no way?
Amazing.
Why don't pm panderus to begin with and save all the drama?
Especially if it is only confirmation you look for and never edit the original post with even things you yourself suggested later ?
Comments
This is fairly spot on, I have to agree....
TRs are tankier than tanks. This is due to ITC, and also things like Smoke Bomb as well as bloodbath with Knife's edge.
If Knife's Edge were fixed. That would alleviate the encounter spam that is possible. However the fact a TR can ITC and be damage immune for like 5 + seconds is pretty crazy ONTOP of smoke bomb ONTOP of stealth ONTOP of dodge roll ONTOP of "bloodbath".
CWs: I think this is less of an issue TBH, however I do agree their control + shield + dodges etc all make them a tanky class. The "random white hits" that ensue from dungeons a CW shield will eat most of this making them tankier than tanks where as a GWF, for instance, has NO DR boost and thus cant take ONE hit from white damage. If they are buffed by DC/GF they can take 2-3 hits however they take 1 out of unstoppable then get unstoppable which makes them get 15% more DR? That wont help much...
I dont know the solution though... TRs is simple I think, ITC should work the same in and out of stealth. IN stealth can get some secondary benefit rather that complete immunity. Knife's edge should be fixed too so it doesnt reset CDs.
CWs, not sure. Maybe Shield could do something a little different. What if Shield instead gave a flat 15-25% DR boost on its own layer instead of a "charged" versus "broken" version. So basically shield is always "broken" however what if shield could be "released" and it would BREAK CC? That seems fair. Slotting in Mastery could still give CC immunity as well.
That makes CWs much less tanky and feel squishy however get control break now... Which is HUGE.
1. Adding icd to the set will turn it useless, it's main worth is on stealth DF. DF attacks are less than 1 sec apart.
Perhaps start with fixes to those looped procs that insta kill stuff. by making it proc only from direct damage skills.
Or limit to one proc per attack tick, to prevent AoE procing on all the mobs.
Yes, those are harder to implement than ICD, but i'm sorry, but lets not start using ICD as duct tape, apply it and you have the cludge fix. Some fixes should be a more thoughtful of the problem and class specific usage. All the fixes i saw so far are so heavy handed they turn things into useless, imo, ICD in this case will go into that category.
2. TR itc: using it from stealth is the most costly thing to DPS a TR can do, it means instead of force criting 200k+ damage and starting SoD it's wasted on a defensible skill and lets not forget that it costs a slot as with shield for CW. This is a heavy price to pay for something you can still can be shot through. Yes, it makes the TR more tanky, but there are trade offs, and they are not negligible.
"If Knife's Edge were fixed. That would alleviate the encounter spam that is possible. However the fact a TR can ITC and be damage immune for like 5 + seconds is pretty crazy ONTOP of smoke bomb ONTOP of stealth ONTOP of dodge roll ONTOP of "bloodbath"."
Please lets not mix things to make points, stealth has nothing to do with damage mitigation, at best it's aggro management, bloodbath is hardly the best thing in PvE (useless compared to everything else - some do not abuse knife edge).
Knife edge is extremely easy to fix, same ICD that was mentioned before, add 2sec ICD and done.
So in example we take an average TR today and put him/her on the scorpions in lostmauth, He most likely overdodge, because missing a dodge = death, and will be at low stamina most of the time, smoke is useless (cc immune), stealthing is not relevant much on bosses so we have itc and bloodbath. And both have heavy tradeoffs compared to a higher dps options.
Please lets consider all aspects, before making drastic changes and 'fixes'.
Addon:
The perma stealth argument is really really moot, stealth has nothing to do with tankines, the whole concept of tankiness is to absorb damage, like the name suggests..
Stealth does not allow it, not in PvP nor in PvE, so please lets get the terms straight, if the reference to PvP than it was discussed to death many times and has a lot to do with occupying enemy players and nothing with absorbing their damage.
If it's an PvE argument, than I want to see a perma TR that tanks any boss now (or holding aggro more than 3 sec).
But because the post that mentioned it has everything about "they are" and hashtag galore I can safely assume it's about PvP, and as constructive as usual...
ITC is not 5s of complete immunity since mod5. it is 50% DR. Still efficient though.
I was using it before, it was really useful to help the party (ex : someone is killed in an AoE in epic Tuern, but TR can res him). Now, it is only useful as an egoist auto-survival skill, but still something we need to slot if we don't want to be one-shot by the first hit that come in the new mod.
From my point of view, if some power need a rework, it is the class feathure that is the main problem.
stealth is survival skills (and not tanking skills, that is really different)
stealth is damage
stealth is mobility
stealth is everything
everything is stealth
Stealth make TR OP, but lack of stealth make TR useless.
If you think TR is "too much" and want to suggest something, look at how he get bonus instead of what bonus he get.
Why do you think scoundrel is so weak ? Because everything come from stealth, and he do not rely on stealth. THat is why most player don't rely on scoundrel
If you can't PvE it doesn't mean other not capable nor playing, some actually doing it successfully, so please consider it when you make suggestions.
The fact that you don't care about the second aspect ofthe game (and arguably the main aspect) is what makes your suggestions useless and incomplete. Suggest something that works for both and then it will be less arguing and more balancing, and everyone will be happier.
"If ONE single TR can tank an entire party"
TRs can't tank, can survive on a node, yes, tank, no. ITC offers 50% DR + deflect for 4 seconds if activated from stealth. And after those 4 seconds what happens to the tankines ?
Surviving is one thing, absorbing damage is totally different thing.
"if you don't even PvP"
This is an interesting assumption, so lets clear yes I do not PvP since the mod lunched as i see no gain from it, no seals, no glory quests.
In mod5 though i had nothing to do but PvP so i got the **** pirate set, hundreds of seals and hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of glory, match after match. And yet, you ar eright, I do not presume to be top PvPer or actually claim to be good at it, but i do have the basic understanding ( or sure hope so after all the matches), but at least when I'm making suggestions I try to point out the effects of what it will have in PvE and PvP or at least be clear what i'm talking about and do not limit myself to hashtags.
"then don't comment on PvP specific flaws"
Where in your post you actually mentioned that it is about PvP ?
I guessed by the great verbal accomplishment that are typical to the players ( sorry, but it's usually like that, no offense to the exceptions),
though surprisingly you choose to type that way and can actually type the way normal people type too.
And I don't see where i commented about PvP specific issues in my post.
"give me (us) a break."
No problem, but then please make sure your suggestions do not break the class, but are actually balance and considering both PvE and PvP.
You want to remove crit on stealth, no problem, suggest something instead, or lets return to at-wills do not reduce stealth.
Or this request alone will bring back TR to ~mod2 era when i saw TRs in /lfg paying to get a group.
"I stacked 89.9% resistance ignored, yet TR take no damage, crit/non crit doesn't matter and at the same time"
Do you have the log parse? If the 50% DR is added after ArP calculation and not counted in, you ArP mitigated the base defense which is what now days is ~15% and nothing else.. then this should be fixed and the DR counted.
Or if your opponent had the new ArP resistance for tenacity.... if this is the case it has nothing to do with TRs/ITC per se, it means that there is a bigger problem that makes all you ArP useless and you wouldn't break GF/GWF (the right pathes) resistance as well, because all your ArP is gone.
"CW, they absorb the highest hits, then usually the attacker's burst is used up and he is left with not much to do against a highly agile, high damage hitting/dotting, supposed to be 'squishy', class."
Why would anyone will use his high damage attacks first and not destabilize the shield before?
Maybe the issue is to catch them and keep up, and then gap closer / control are the issue and not the shield?
What you are looking for is an easy target to get kills in the next module.
Stealth do not improve TR's DPS, it create TR's DPS. Most of our feats, encounters, at-will... benefit from stealth, and that is not a slight boost.
Without it, TR are not damage dealer. Rogue are damage dealer.
and that is why you can't nerf something and say "it's done", because if you nerf something, you completely remove it.
But I know that I am talking into the wind, you've already stated it...
The fact that you don't care about PvE have nothing to do with you being aPvP player, but rather with your short-sighted perspective.
I am in contact with some elite PvP players who do care about PvE, because they want everyone to be able to enjoy the game, and the same goes for PvE players. Hopefully, not everyone share your vision of things.
You mean that one of the most powerful class of the game can be played efficiently ? No ?...
Are you kidding ? That is incredible...
But that is clearly not the subject here, please, go discussing CW's OPiness in CW's class forum.
Or in the TR's one
HERE we are not in tr class forum and a good thread is going to the bin once again for a bunch of ...
Indeed, sorry, I was reading both forums at that's where the error occurs.
Sorry, the day was really long...
And for my concern the "out-of-subject" had ended, I have nothing more to say and will not continue, to add fuel to the fire.
reason all of this got brought up is because SOME classes are able to adjust well to the "difficulty" of PVE dungeons, basically the hard hitting PVE mobs but purely avoiding or controlling which then negates it 100%.
Other classes were given "higher DR" to help them negate the damage which has proven ineffective since some classes negate 100% of damage where as a tank class even negating 50% of the damage ends up still taking 100k+ hits.
This is the SIMPLE way to phrase this and it basically stems from TWO issues:
1) majority of mobs are controllable or kitable allowing ranged classes, CC classes, or classes with immunity frames a massive advantage.
2) Other classes have no tools like this and are just SOL because of the bad "difficulty" design that was implemented.
As discussed before having a larger majority NOT controllable would make a major difference, as well as different variation of mobs that maybe have increased AoE resist and must be "focused". These things make a tank class much more necessary.
ALL of this loops BACK around to 1 issue though.
PVE MOB DAMAGE IS FAR TOO HIGH AND IS A VERY BAD WAY OF SCALING DIFFICULTY.
I guess if you choose to ignore all my points and only to stick to a general stament and how PvE doesn't matter, then I'm humbled, sorry that playing an MMO (in a PvE) setting upset your balance and be grateful for you to show me how you, your 5 years old daughter on her CW and 3 other classes of your choice (please pick as skillful PvPers as you yourself are, we wouldn't want those pesky PvE min/maxers to interfere and 5 CW is ok too, would love to see that) and please show me how you do all t2 in one go with no wipes. Back to back, CC, GWD, ToS, and ofcourse it's about skill so please no 'features' like endless AP gain with the DC feat multiproc, Lostmauth set loopback, geas on cc immune bosses and so on.
If you can please do so before the next patch, We wouldn't want the devs toning down the dungeons to interfere with the skill showcase.
Good luck, really looking forward to watch and learn.
Ps. if you are looking for a bit PvP balance and challenge, perhaps try dota2 / sc2 / CS:S/CS:GS , I've being playing those for years and they are still going strong, there is no relevant PvE aspect there, you wont care about it and we wouldn't care for your thoughts on the matter. Perfect balance.
I agree with this, its fine for some classes, that can mostly avoid the issue, others it not good at all, trying to even keep a GF up nowadays as a DC is no fun, doing it with gwfs even worse. If TRs didnt have some 100% immune options, and or/insta daze mob pack options, they would be in the same boat. HR combat is alot dead due to this as well, even though they did seem to scale wild medicine up some, (ah the old combat hr! I miss ye, one of my favorite classes in game, gone but not forgotten. )
They seem to have something against melee in this game, or cant quite figure it out, the balance between range options, melee options and in between ones.
Probably true, but while I have a problem with the skillful PvPer attitude that i quoted earlier, there is truth that up until now the power creep killed PvE, there was no challenge.
And please lets not get back to it!
So if it is a bad way, is there a better suggestion that can be done with the resources of the small studio ?
Or given the the fact that we have those mobs already, how balance can be achived for both aspect ?
Offering ICD or just toning some things up or down doesn't always cut it, and in this case, sorry, but as i posted earlier i think will break more than fix or at least make things useless again.
The only immunity i can think of is bloodbath or courage breaker, both are dailies.
Smoke will kill if done first, it's not instant, dazing is and has limited cone.
And to the OP, imo, perma stealth TRs are the most useless type/class in PvE, about 1 : (5-15) damage compared to a properly speced TR for damage. Better to take GF, they are invaluable now.
There is no corelation in her head on helping group dynamics, or how to pre empt certain situations, she just reacts, even slower then my middle aged fingers can manage.
That is just a lie, at the height of mod 5, my 5 year old, COULD and would do heralds and some other dragon grinding for me, you know super easy stuff. Its not as easy anymore and she would die now.
I miss that though, great to get through stuff I hated doing =P with a passion. I sat her at one of the siege events and she got me a stack or two of RP as well.
Basically that's what they want because there's no middle ground between "allowing any class with any build and any party comp to kill any boss" and "a challenge requiring skill and teamwork". I mean there are some mechanics specifics to given classes that are supposed to work together, like the GF not being killed by npcs in one hit and being healed by the cleric. If damage in dungeons is cut in half then we'll see CWs tanking and kiting stuff, using glass cannon builds again (because the only thing that matters is not being killed in one hit to recover easily), and we can say goodbye to tanks in dungeons. Or we can forget clerics too. And support rangers. And healing warlock as support. Also, stop levelling paladins now because it's going to be completely useless.
Basically, to please one class using one freaking niche build, support should be unnecessary again. No thank you.
Thinking there's a middle ground between being forgiving and a challenge is delusional and ignoring game mechanics and all this kind of request will do is getting the game rolled back to mod 4/5 state.
We have already discussed this... There is ALOT of room to work.
If damage is cut in half, but HALF the mobs are not longer controllable. A CW will die in 3 hits still.... HALF means netting 30k-50k a hit right? So NOW itll REQUIRE MORE teamwork.
A TR wont be able to smoke bomb CC entire groups, a handful of mobs wont be affected and FORCE squishy groups to try and kite more and probably just get ran over.
There is DEFINITELY a middle ground. Harder =/= mobs deal more damage. Carry that idea out and DOUBLE the damage. Youll still have groups that can do the content... But that doesnt make it hard, it just restricts it to certain class mechanics that can do it.
Also AGAIN you can create AOE resistance mobs which FORCE single target damage. You can create "magic resistant" mobs meaning only physical damage hurts them FORCING party diversity. Same with physical resistance mobs etc.
There are a TON of mechanics you can play with to adjust this. As ALSO mentioned before Diablo 3 tried this EXACT thing with "inferno mode" and only half the classes could do it.
Barbarians would post saying "WTF inferno is stupid" and some Wizard posts his SS of him completing the whole thing... "L2P bro" he would say...
It didnt work and its why they changed it. Its plagued by other things but it WAS successful in implementing different tactics required for different mob "buffs" that i think NEverwinter could definitely implement on a lesser level/extent.
All this is a fallacy. GWFs are top damage dealers again in dungeons. Facts. But only destroyers. Your character isn't useless. It's just a dps character. And it's always been considered as such by cryptic. One GWF filling a dps role in a dungeon is absolutely fine. And they're not as much in trouble as you tink they are. I do play T2s. With GWFs. And since I'm healing I monitor who's taking damage, who triggered his soulforge and who was just standing in red. That's my job after all. And I can tell you that GWFs rarely get killed in one hit except by their own stupidity, as long as support is doing the job - and as long as everyone follows the basic tactical instructions for the fight. I'd rather get a TR if I could to defuse all the ****ing traps but a GWF is a fine choice too as dps.
or maybe both? one class can do everthing (including what is not suposed to do) and other classes need choose one specific way to play.
today you dont need play the game to see what is wrong with these changes; just analyze the "enthusiasts discourse"
Top DPS you dont know what you talk about .
I enter E.LOL from the first encounter untill the final chest i did 50 mill then our CW got disconnected waited around 5 min then we kicked .
We got a HR short vid from boss and baaam intensive laag and boss go down to 10% hp.
I say WTF ....
Dragon fly up i chek fast x what did i see HR done 60 mill in 10-20 sec .
Another story :
The point is GWF have no positive bugs to deal those insane dmg what CW-DC-HR-SW can do.
We do only 40% more dmg this is all cuz GWF lost too many things crit +high power + Intimidation and he die on every 10 sec .
Btw i have lol set . and 3000 i.lvl full rank 10 lvl 70 full gear +trans enchants.
I have zero problem with dalys all thing are smoth ,until i enter to any dungeon w/o KV or tankadin daly i am dead from 1 hit or 2 hit just insane i dont even think my defense makes anny difference or my deflect .
I got (1 hit) 4 million dmg from Tos endboss wtf not even tankadin daly or my 170k hp cant saved me .
That's a bug abuser and you should have reported him. This is in no way working as intended.
So he is aware, reviewing the list of 5, hopefully this is ONE of them that has been resolved (PVE damage).
To anyone else who thinks about responding to diogene0, save your time. One thing I have learned from playing this game as long as I have and posting here as long as I have is that no matter how obvious something is to everyone, there will ALWAYS be 1-2 players who have a different opinion. A perfect example is with RP for artifact equipment. There was a massive thread not that long ago about this where it was unanimous everyone agreed its stupid to give us new weapons/gear to refine up and NO new ways to really earn the RP for it.
Well, sure enough about page 12 or 15 in, some guy comes in and starts supporting the decision. Its the same here. Its so painfully OBVIOUS its broken, that anyone who is honest about it or who KNOWS, knows...
Its only those that live in a box or "elite-ist" about PVE that want to keep their monopoly on it. I spend probably 20 injury kits per t2 run, through zero fault of my own, I just have to get lucky enough to not have agro when the CC runs out. If I have agro from dealing damage and marking, and there is a gap in CC I insta die. Only with a OP+DC or GF+DC can I live past a few hits. This is NOT "hard" its dumb. There is a difference.
Should PVE REQUIRE teamwork? YES. But should it require Knights Valor + AS to prevent you from getting 1 shot? No.... Its SO painfully obvious there is even a thread about GFs having complaints about damage going through or around block and hitting for 500k+. This should not happen.
I love what you said
point is, that DEvs don't
.Suicide Squad.
My personal concern is that the 'fix' wont push us to the other side, like a lot of proposals and complaints they are very general and the fix is to heavy handed.
You asked to fix the mobs damage but your request is general, do I agree that t2 are to steep jump from t1, yes.
Do I think t1 should be nerfed, NO! Most parties still can easly burn Val, and run t1 without DC/GF, it's harder and nothing wrong with it.
So, please, please be precise or there is a saying in the spirit of "beware or you will get what you ask for".
About the 5sec ICD for lostmauth set i wrote earlier, there less heavy handed solution that i believe can work for both PvP and PvE and not make it almost useless.
So you see the issue is that you want to bring inappropriate parties to the most challenging content in-game. T2s do require a strong support team and it's fine as it is. If you want to go to ToS with a team of 5 GWFs then you're doing it wrong and you're the one to blame.
Bro, Im gonna start calling you Red. Why? Because everything you say is a Red Herring. Look it up. Noone ever said 5 GWF party....
Its not even about appropriate parties or not, its NOT about if its possible or not. Its not about "it should require skill" or not.
Its about getting 1 shot. Period. A TANK class specced for max defense,hp,deflection should have the ability to withstand MORE than 1 hit. Period. Not just "With buffs" he can withstand. But on basic mobs withstand. You dont get it Red.... YOu just dont.
Why do you think this thread exists? http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?893221-About-GF-block
As I said before, YOU want to say "hey its doable if you have X group using X abilities, just have a GWF stand in AS + KV on and you wont get 1 shot!"
I am saying "GWFs have a tank path, did you know? Guess what, with AS up as a TANK I get 1 shot WOOHOO!" So no tank GWF can tank, cool beans. What about Destroyer? YES they do good damage. So if you are looking for a DPS and have a tank/heals and enough CC you CAN do one and it even fits IN an "ideal" party. But what about GFs too are they FORCED to have Knights Valor and hide behind block the entire time? Is that "tanking" I dont think so...
I ran my GF back pre any module. Back when dungeons were fun. Were they easy? eh kinda... At first when NOONE had gear even some T1s were difficult and CN definitely was too. Only with evolution of modules, new gear, new enchants, boons etc and inflation did it become a joke.
So no instead of bringing us BACK to around those same levels, where a TANK could run in, and TANK. NOT "hide behind shield" but could take hits and dish hits back out, they give us this "block and STILL die" PVE HAMSTER.
Is it DOABLE? YES! I HAVE DONE IT! BUT ITS STUPID AND NOT FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I literally feel like im wearing cloth as a MAIL wearer stacking ALL defensive stats + Negation. Doesnt matter. Cant even build stacks up because I either take a few hits and die, or never get touched.
When AS is not up, I sprint around like a girl because 1 hit kills me, with 100k HP, with nearl 3k item level. 1 hit kills me and I am not alone.
Ive done the content, gotten several pieces of gear. Its not fun. Its NOT hard and its not what anyone WANTS to play. You dont get a sense of accomplishment from it, you ONLY get frustration even from opening the chest. Why? Because it wasnt skill that got you that.
Get a group, spam CC, the boss fights are VERY easy mechanics and you win.
What SHOULD it be?
Get a balanced group (not 5 of a class) and YES it REQUIRES CC, but it should REQUIRE a TANK - not just "hiding behind block and still dying only to get rezzed up" but TAKING HITS and DEALING HITS.
For this the FIRST STEPS are to reduce PVE mob damage, they should still hurt, but FIRST do that. THEN! Give MORE mobs CC immunity, not just resist. Then see how hard it is, if you want hard content, make the MINORITY of mobs "controllable" or able to be dazed etc.
Now youve got REAL hard content because you cant just spam CC/AoE them all down.
If you dont get it by now Red, you never will. If it stays as is, have fun in a game with a population of 10 (all your buddies you run with).
It just made half of the new reworked CW obsolete, they will adapt, and we will have again the lean mean dps machine?
Maybe mechanics like enrage, when mobs become immune after a certain damage threshold.
Mixing encounter groups with immune and non immune mobs so everyone has a job...
Mobs that controllable but ignore aggro mechanic and choose their target by some way even if at random. (also ignore GF/OP aggro managment)
Edit:
Your way or no way?
Amazing.
Why don't pm panderus to begin with and save all the drama?
Especially if it is only confirmation you look for and never edit the original post with even things you yourself suggested later ?