You all call me a flamer because apparently I am one of those who does not agree with your opinion on CWs. I did do some constructive posts on that thread and so did the others before some of your folk came in and started "AAAI WANNA LEGIT DATA!" thing for like 20 pages. The thread was quite constructive before that.
I know, there will be no change probably for one module or maybe even two since the devs got their own "Things to do" backlog and they are more likely to tweak the other classes than nerfing CWs so they fit better in meta. But the fact that people like @ofnieslaf keep barking around, blindy believing their class is not a broken A>B>C chessy piece for everything, when I post around kind of give me some fun.
I've seen many complaints about the CW shield the last few weeks and as a CW I can say that would be willing to give up the shield, IF we get some "real" control. And I'm not talking about entangle that last 0.5 seconds like it does right now. Most of your control last a very short time or gets resisted.
And yes I'm talking mostly about PvP. Not even using shield in PvE.
Discuss: Switch shield for more control - good or bad?
Okay, and how much control should they have for each power, by what amount, and what role will each other class play if you are able to reach permanent CC due to these changes? Furthermore, a CW already ignores 67% tenacity in PvP, more than any other class.
More control results in exactly what I've said time and time again in now locked threads, it becomes unfun for anyone fighting a CW in PvP, and in PvE it makes classes that are tanks and healers useless since you are able to control everything and their role become not required. Examples being 3 CW runs for CN back when they could spam singularity and Mod 4 where CWs could perma control in PvP.
Also, for all those complaining about "CW bashing" why don't you actually put forth some constructive ideas instead of whining? Take macjae's example once again.
Or we could just end up with another locked thread, really doesn't matter to me.
i think our main problem is 1 person sees a cw in pvp and says shield is to strong then someone else sees a cw in pve and says they do to much damage on one seam to realise its a trade off you can either do great damage or be verry tank like but you can not do both at the same time everyon needs to realise this
Since this thread is becoming a Cw one,this is what i think: When CWs did great amounts of damage people would say they are controllers and not strikers,so nerf their damage. Personally i PVE almost exclusively and wouldn't mind doing minimun damage if i'm given 100% cc immunity/resist bypass and long freezing times on mobs. But then people would complain of too much Control.Honestly,i enjoy the class and would play it even without damage or control.Paingiver doesn't matter to me all that much. Now in PvP,from what i read and the limited personal experience i have,things are unbalanced for all classes more or less,with TR and CW being the main targets of discontent. Well if it was me,in a future Mod,i would get rid of the Leaderboard and try to make it so all classes had an equal opportunity to survive and kill their opponents.Cws being support,would need to have very good control,so as to immobilize the enemies and give their teammates the opportunity to finish them off. Control is better than damage,if you ask me, and afterall it is Control Wizard not Battle Mage. However as things stand in Mod 6,Control is almost useless since Monsters have very high Control resistance,Orb of Imposition is bugged and even with Control Companions ,i can't immobilze anything for more than a split second.Thank you for reading this.
Let's nerf CW control, let's nerf CW damage, let's nerf CW passive damage procs (OMG STORM SPELL 40%!!!!!!!!!!!), let's nerf CW defense with Shield, and then CW's will be free kills again in PVP and will be absolutely useless in PVE. Which is evidently what the majority of forum players want.
But in all seriousness, the real problem is that currently, there is very little incentive to go pure control path, because the extra control that you gain from Oppressor is offset by a very large decrease in AOE damage potential from not choosing one of the other two paths.
And if Oppressor is buffed to offer more control, the rivers of QQ from the forums will flow once again. That was tried in Mod 4 and Oppressor was instantly nerfed once again.
You can't have your cake and eat it too: either you give CW more control tools via Oppressive tree and therefore give them a REASON to choose the control path - and therefore have to live with "perma-control" CW's in PVP - or you accept that control is overrated in this game at least from the CW point of view and that their primary role is going to be de facto AOE damage dealer.
But I don't know why you would expect CW's to willingly choose Oppressor tree in this climate when it is the weakest tree of the three.
More control results in exactly what I've said time and time again in now locked threads, it becomes unfun for anyone fighting a CW in PvP, and in PvE it makes classes that are tanks and healers useless since you are able to control everything and their role become not required. Examples being 3 CW runs for CN back when they could spam singularity and Mod 4 where CWs could perma control in PvP.
Also, for all those complaining about "CW bashing" why don't you actually put forth some constructive ideas instead of whining? Take macjae's example once again.
Or we could just end up with another locked thread, really doesn't matter to me.
So we can't give CW's more control, as the PVP players would whine and cry some more.
But we can't give CW's more AOE damage, as that would make all other classes useless.
1. There's poor differentiation between Thaumaturge and Renegade. They should be more conceptually distinct. As it is, they're both basically damage paths.
Thaumaturge is the DoT-based personal buffing path. Renegade is the crit-based party buffing path. Yes they are both damage-dealing paths but they do so in different ways. You can't really create a hybrid control/AOE damage path because then every CW would choose that one and the QQ would be overwhelming.
2. There's excessive reliance on one particular class feature -- Storm Spell -- due to bad changes to powers. Damage should be more reliant on successful power use and less on a class feature.
Look - Storm Spell is the way it is in order to accommodate CW's who choose to spec for pure control in the Oppressor tree. Because all of the pure control encounters deal almost no damage. So Storm Spell then becomes the only AOE damage source that remains.
If you take away Storm Spell, you will further inhibit CW's from choosing the Oppressor tree and instead focusing even more heavily on AOE damage. Is that what you want?
3. It can still do too many things too well in PvE. With PvE content being changed this module, we should wait and see a bit how things settle, though.
What do CW's do "too well"? Be specific here. All I read on the forums mainly are generalized complaints that "CW's can do everything!!!!"
CW's can control and kill trash mobs? Yes, that's right. That's their job. That is 90+% of their DPS in almost every case. They *ought* to be able to do that well.
4. It's too reliant on Shield in PvP. Some powers that used to be very fun to play (Shard) have essentially become non-functional in PvP. Focused Wizardry also has some issues that should probably be addressed.
It's "too" reliant on Shield because CC is not an adequate defense, since (a) control is very weak even when it is buffed by Oppressor feats, and (b) most classes have on-demand ways to break out of CC.
And I really am tired of hearing the nostalgia from Shard. Am I the only one who remembers how awful Shard was, that it would bug out, get stuck in the terrain, inexplicably vanish, inexplicably go on cooldown for no reason, etc...?
What is the issue with Focused Wizardry? And before you suggest messing with it, please know that Focused Wizardry buffs MoF's Smolder mechanic, so nerfing Focused Wizardry would mean nerfing MoF.
Overall, the class needs a clean-up to be a tidier design. It does not generally overperform in PvP, except against SWs. It does currently still overperform in PvE, but we'll need to see module 6 in action before judging on that.
How do you assess that CW's are "overperforming"? According to what metric? When the dungeon is full of controllable trash mobs, CW's ought to be on top, and they are. When the dungeon is full of CC-resistant elite mobs, like in LoL, CW's are only in the middle of the pack compared to TR's HR's and SW's, and they are.
I just love CWs and their delusions. Macjae has it spot-on. That's a CW with class self-awareness. Kind of pointless for us to continue arguing over anything, CW included. I don't even care about my own broken class any longer. I'm just going to level up, test some stuff and give honest feedback. All we can do is hope progress is made towards a healthier mod 7. As it stands right now, I feel like we are using each other's brokenness to win. Instead of anything truly relating to skill.
Sorry but I get a little pissy when people make vague complaint and then demand specific nerfs. Because the complaint is so vague, any nerf would satisfy the complaint. So it all becomes a self-justifying mess.
"CWs overperform (vague complaint), therefore we must nerf Storm Spell" (specific nerf)
I mean, I don't even understand what "overperform" is supposed to mean. Compared to what? Compared to other classes? Compared to some idealized CW standard?
And what's really happening here is that people come demanding specific nerfs without any substantive basis, and then try to use vague complaints in order to justify the nerfs they have in mind.
People are evidently upset that Storm Spell can in some cases do 40% of a CW's damage. So they make up whatever complaint is convenient at the time in order to demand that Storm Spell be nerfed.
Sorry but I get a little pissy when people make vague complaint and then demand specific nerfs. Because the complaint is so vague, any nerf would satisfy the complaint. So it all becomes a self-justifying mess.
"CWs overperform (vague complaint), therefore we must nerf Storm Spell" (specific nerf)
I mean, I don't even understand what "overperform" is supposed to mean. Compared to what? Compared to other classes? Compared to some idealized CW standard?
And what's really happening here is that people come demanding specific nerfs without any substantive basis, and then try to use vague complaints in order to justify the nerfs they have in mind.
People are evidently upset that Storm Spell can in some cases do 40% of a CW's damage. So they make up whatever complaint is convenient at the time in order to demand that Storm Spell be nerfed.
Just give it up, half the morons in this thread and others who demands nerf to cw's, are the same dudes who argues feverly that their beloved TR class is WAI in other threads... Mainly they are just pissy because there is one class that their beloved TR cant 1-hit kill...
Mcjaer have some pretty valid points though, however all the new dungeons are going away from the massive add feast gameplay, which helps bring the CW's more in line with the rest of classes.
Oh yeah and btw i would LOVE if they moved some of the damage from storm spell over to our encounters, currently the cw meta is just to find the spell who does the most procs and yeah that gets kind of old fast.
On the other hand, a lot of the complaints that are directed against CWs are done so on a completely wrong basis. Like a GWF dying in one hit in a heroic encounter while a CW survives due to Shield? The problem isn't that Shield is too good, but that the NPC hits too hard. Likewise, with the damage that CWs do in PvP -- they need high levels of damage to compete in PvP, but it should be less easy to deliver.
this part is not correct. the big problem starts at the "rework" in m4 that was intended that "cws and gwf must choose between damage or defense / cc. not both".
the rest is the logical consequence - said in advice - and, well, cw have even party heal now. of course, to turn the thing more bizarre, to cw choose be tank - give the possibilites today - just need choose a encounter. gwf dont will change your situation even if choose a "tank tree".
iam speak about the gc notes. gwf need choose between damage or defense and cw, damage or cc.
that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is said in one blog or i dont know. cw shield is a paralel <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. this encounter accidentally be better suited for pve than unstoppable now is a "accident".
note:I'm not against having reduced the defense of gwf (m4). I am against this nerf AFTER... well... just look the game.
Before Mod 4, CWs were basically free kills in PVP. The Shield buff was in direct response to that, because nobody uses Shield in PVE except maybe while leveling.
Before Mod 4, CWs were basically free kills in PVP. The Shield buff was in direct response to that, because nobody uses Shield in PVE except maybe while leveling.
yes, but cw is no longer a free kill and now this encounter will create a big advantage in pve. like you can see, this is not a "gwf hate <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>"; is a reasonably note. if gwf is ok, cw is not ok, need a nerf. "oh, but the problem is the dungeons, need rework that". yes, and guess what? happen in this module, and...
Haha, yessir! I even was inclined to quote your signature - yet again.
I think we should start a booze-before-you-post initiative. That would result in the same amount of constructivism and objectivism but w-a-y more fun while reading through it!
aha even with storm spell fixed... i can cast my whole roation while youre still suing harrowstorm HAHAHAH anbd ull die.
??? You're pretty much saying the class is OP with this statement. I can see friendly kidding around but I don't think that is what is going on here. SW's should not be mocked. The diligent ones have the most balls of any dedicated players of a class in Neverwinter. TR, DC, CW....you kind of gotta say, "I like to win so I play a fotm class". I will readily admit that myself.
Can't knock people for wanting to play on a higher difficulty mode than most everyone else.
Comments
Nice avatar by the way, laughed hard.
WTB Class Reroll please
I know, there will be no change probably for one module or maybe even two since the devs got their own "Things to do" backlog and they are more likely to tweak the other classes than nerfing CWs so they fit better in meta. But the fact that people like @ofnieslaf keep barking around, blindy believing their class is not a broken A>B>C chessy piece for everything, when I post around kind of give me some fun.
WTB Class Reroll please
you can try, secundary striker.
note: my point about cc stay. seens better messing up the enemies using opressive force+freeze /stun instead to do a clean job like in m2/m3?
Okay, and how much control should they have for each power, by what amount, and what role will each other class play if you are able to reach permanent CC due to these changes? Furthermore, a CW already ignores 67% tenacity in PvP, more than any other class.
More control results in exactly what I've said time and time again in now locked threads, it becomes unfun for anyone fighting a CW in PvP, and in PvE it makes classes that are tanks and healers useless since you are able to control everything and their role become not required. Examples being 3 CW runs for CN back when they could spam singularity and Mod 4 where CWs could perma control in PvP.
Also, for all those complaining about "CW bashing" why don't you actually put forth some constructive ideas instead of whining? Take macjae's example once again.
Or we could just end up with another locked thread, really doesn't matter to me.
Let's nerf CW control, let's nerf CW damage, let's nerf CW passive damage procs (OMG STORM SPELL 40%!!!!!!!!!!!), let's nerf CW defense with Shield, and then CW's will be free kills again in PVP and will be absolutely useless in PVE. Which is evidently what the majority of forum players want.
But in all seriousness, the real problem is that currently, there is very little incentive to go pure control path, because the extra control that you gain from Oppressor is offset by a very large decrease in AOE damage potential from not choosing one of the other two paths.
And if Oppressor is buffed to offer more control, the rivers of QQ from the forums will flow once again. That was tried in Mod 4 and Oppressor was instantly nerfed once again.
You can't have your cake and eat it too: either you give CW more control tools via Oppressive tree and therefore give them a REASON to choose the control path - and therefore have to live with "perma-control" CW's in PVP - or you accept that control is overrated in this game at least from the CW point of view and that their primary role is going to be de facto AOE damage dealer.
But I don't know why you would expect CW's to willingly choose Oppressor tree in this climate when it is the weakest tree of the three.
So we can't give CW's more control, as the PVP players would whine and cry some more.
But we can't give CW's more AOE damage, as that would make all other classes useless.
So why do we need to change CW's at all?
Thaumaturge is the DoT-based personal buffing path. Renegade is the crit-based party buffing path. Yes they are both damage-dealing paths but they do so in different ways. You can't really create a hybrid control/AOE damage path because then every CW would choose that one and the QQ would be overwhelming.
Look - Storm Spell is the way it is in order to accommodate CW's who choose to spec for pure control in the Oppressor tree. Because all of the pure control encounters deal almost no damage. So Storm Spell then becomes the only AOE damage source that remains.
If you take away Storm Spell, you will further inhibit CW's from choosing the Oppressor tree and instead focusing even more heavily on AOE damage. Is that what you want?
What do CW's do "too well"? Be specific here. All I read on the forums mainly are generalized complaints that "CW's can do everything!!!!"
CW's can control and kill trash mobs? Yes, that's right. That's their job. That is 90+% of their DPS in almost every case. They *ought* to be able to do that well.
It's "too" reliant on Shield because CC is not an adequate defense, since (a) control is very weak even when it is buffed by Oppressor feats, and (b) most classes have on-demand ways to break out of CC.
And I really am tired of hearing the nostalgia from Shard. Am I the only one who remembers how awful Shard was, that it would bug out, get stuck in the terrain, inexplicably vanish, inexplicably go on cooldown for no reason, etc...?
What is the issue with Focused Wizardry? And before you suggest messing with it, please know that Focused Wizardry buffs MoF's Smolder mechanic, so nerfing Focused Wizardry would mean nerfing MoF.
How do you assess that CW's are "overperforming"? According to what metric? When the dungeon is full of controllable trash mobs, CW's ought to be on top, and they are. When the dungeon is full of CC-resistant elite mobs, like in LoL, CW's are only in the middle of the pack compared to TR's HR's and SW's, and they are.
Sorry but I get a little pissy when people make vague complaint and then demand specific nerfs. Because the complaint is so vague, any nerf would satisfy the complaint. So it all becomes a self-justifying mess.
"CWs overperform (vague complaint), therefore we must nerf Storm Spell" (specific nerf)
I mean, I don't even understand what "overperform" is supposed to mean. Compared to what? Compared to other classes? Compared to some idealized CW standard?
And what's really happening here is that people come demanding specific nerfs without any substantive basis, and then try to use vague complaints in order to justify the nerfs they have in mind.
People are evidently upset that Storm Spell can in some cases do 40% of a CW's damage. So they make up whatever complaint is convenient at the time in order to demand that Storm Spell be nerfed.
Just give it up, half the morons in this thread and others who demands nerf to cw's, are the same dudes who argues feverly that their beloved TR class is WAI in other threads... Mainly they are just pissy because there is one class that their beloved TR cant 1-hit kill...
Mcjaer have some pretty valid points though, however all the new dungeons are going away from the massive add feast gameplay, which helps bring the CW's more in line with the rest of classes.
this part is not correct. the big problem starts at the "rework" in m4 that was intended that "cws and gwf must choose between damage or defense / cc. not both".
the rest is the logical consequence - said in advice - and, well, cw have even party heal now. of course, to turn the thing more bizarre, to cw choose be tank - give the possibilites today - just need choose a encounter. gwf dont will change your situation even if choose a "tank tree".
that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is said in one blog or i dont know. cw shield is a paralel <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. this encounter accidentally be better suited for pve than unstoppable now is a "accident".
note:I'm not against having reduced the defense of gwf (m4). I am against this nerf AFTER... well... just look the game.
Have you seen the name of my Guild?
Alwas do mi amigo, always do!
yes, but cw is no longer a free kill and now this encounter will create a big advantage in pve. like you can see, this is not a "gwf hate <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>"; is a reasonably note. if gwf is ok, cw is not ok, need a nerf. "oh, but the problem is the dungeons, need rework that". yes, and guess what? happen in this module, and...
you have 3 real possibilities here. a moderate, a energic and one shoot in the dark.
Haha, yessir! I even was inclined to quote your signature - yet again.
I think we should start a booze-before-you-post initiative. That would result in the same amount of constructivism and objectivism but w-a-y more fun while reading through it!
Cheers, mate!
??? You're pretty much saying the class is OP with this statement. I can see friendly kidding around but I don't think that is what is going on here. SW's should not be mocked. The diligent ones have the most balls of any dedicated players of a class in Neverwinter. TR, DC, CW....you kind of gotta say, "I like to win so I play a fotm class". I will readily admit that myself.
Can't knock people for wanting to play on a higher difficulty mode than most everyone else.
I don't get calls for nerfing them. Why make a class suck again?
Buff SW. Buff GWF. So they don't suck.
Problem solved.