The Monk - How To Punch Tiamat in the Face and Get Away With It.

felixkam

Hello everyone, Felix Here,

Since no one bothers checking the Art & Fiction section of the forums I figured I'd post something here briefly to ask if anyone would be willing to help me out with putting the finishing touches on a monk class I've been working on for Neverwinter Online. Please do keep in mind that this is a fan project, and does not necessarily show/prove any of your suspicions about what Cryptic will be doing.

If you are interested in taking a look at the class, please feel free to click the link below. Almost any and all feedback would be highly appreciated, the major exceptions being things such as "Hurr Durr Idiot OP thinks they can be a game dev lol." which are extremely insulting and unappreciated.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?865991-The-Monk-A-Relatively-Detailed-Proposal-for-a-New-Class/

If anyone has any questions they would like to ask prior to checking out the link, please feel free to post them here, and I'll answer it as soon as possible. Questions which are highly pertinent may be copied and attached to this post with credit being given to the appropriate persons.

If anyone would like to join or help out, feel free to send me a private message.

Edit: I still have no idea why this was moved to Gameplay, Combat, and PvP Discussion. Because it has nothing to do with what currently exists in Neverwinter Online, which this section is supposed to be for.

sockmunkey

My thoughts on Monks

felixkam

sockmunkey wrote: »

My thoughts on Monks

Lol, I actually had the same problem in 3rd Edition. The monk seemed interesting but the fact that MAD was a thing, and that my DM liked to throw us into extremely bad situations for the hell of it, forced me away from it by necessity. Was also somewhat hard to rp, but on occasion it led to some really great moments.

berserkrage99

Thanks for making that on the monk! It is truly the ONLY class I am salivating to play as because I love martial arts combat! I'm just sad it has not been created yet... I would spend lots of time and money on my neverwinter monk!!

Devs, I hope you make the monk class!

felixkam

berserkrage99 wrote: »

Thanks for making that on the monk! It is truly the ONLY class I am salivating to play as because I love martial arts combat! I'm just sad it has not been created yet... I would spend lots of time and money on my neverwinter monk!!

Devs, I hope you make the monk class!

Likewise

wylonus

what kind of monks? i have seen other monks in several games, and never like any of thier outfits, some are too kinky leather fetish, Guild wars's monks are healers, and eq2's monks are "paper tanks" with lot of depends on dodgings.

what i like the most of that hybrid class mixtures, Bard/Monk/Sorcerer into "Red Dragon Disciple" from old D&D edition.

felixkam

wylonus wrote: »

what kind of monks? i have seen other monks in several games, and never like any of thier outfits, some are too kinky leather fetish, Guild wars's monks are healers, and eq2's monks are "paper tanks" with lot of depends on dodgings.

what i like the most of that hybrid class mixtures, Bard/Monk/Sorcerer into "Red Dragon Disciple" from old D&D edition.

I don't think I've ever seen a monk kinked out with leather, but I can assure you that's not what I had in mind when I made the class. Monk's in my mind are highly mobile fighters, with side roles as either an enlightened being who is capable of keeping the parties morale up or through their skill deflecting and dodging the attacks.

As a result the monk winds up being primarily, a striker, with side roles as either a leader or a tank.

djarkaan

Hopefully the next classes go like this:

1- Bard
2- Druid
3- Monk

I'm afraid it will go:

1-Druid
2-Bard
3-Monk

suicidalgodot

felixkam wrote: »

The Monk - How To Punch Tiamat in the Face and Get Away With It.
[...]

Step 1: Decide which one.

On a more serious note: I'm looking forward to the Monk, too, but I'm afraid it'll play like a permaStun TR with an unstealthed ITC and an HR's mobility. Plus probably some healing.

felixkam

suicidalgodot wrote: »

Step 1: Decide which one.

On a more serious note: I'm looking forward to the Monk, too, but I'm afraid it'll play like a permaStun TR with an unstealthed ITC and an HR's mobility. Plus probably some healing.

I'd say probably the white head if you want to get away with it easily, or the green head if you want a challenge. Assuming no gems of course.

If you read the actual page, which is excessively long and therefore understandable as to why it is not read, the closest a Monk can come to perma daze is by triggering Stunning Palm which is the only daze, at most 4 times in a row assuming a massive amount of recovery is taken, which results in 4 seconds of daze over a 12 second duration, or if all of your Ki is invested into it a total of 8 seconds of daze over the same 12 second duration, followed by a down period of close to 40 seconds before this can be done again. Assuming other powers as well, this can be increased by up to 1.5 seconds via a power which requires 3 seconds worth of charge up, and an additional 0.5 seconds due to the secondary pulse of it, and even then only if Ki is invested into it again which it does not build up fast enough for with the previous combo in place. The only other possibly stunning power requires of you to successfully hit a fairly difficult to hit ability and chain it, perfectly timed, for at most 3 seconds of down time on a 24 second cooldown. And if you run all three of these encounter powers together, the monk has no gap-closer which makes it significantly more difficult to pull off in PvP where this poses the greatest danger.

In terms of ITC and HR's mobility, I main a HR and I can honestly say that the HRs mobility is extremely dependent on multiple things, such as your feat specification in a class where 2 are considered viable and 1 slightly sub-par though still viable, how many enemies you can consistently hit with steel breeze for stamina regen, and also on how unreliable the dodge happens to be in that situation or Marauders. Back in the case of the Monk however, the closest it comes to ITC levels is through spamming the daily power Refocus which only breaks crowd control on a 10 second cooldown though with a 34% AP cost, or by choosing the tank secondary role which gives you access to Iron Will, which allows for 6 seconds of CC invincibility with 10 seconds of downtime in between each use. And while Iron Will could be consistently used to make the Monk very difficult to keep stunned, it also stops them from using many of their more powerful daily powers due to the cost helping to balance it once again.

Finally in terms of healing, the monk is fairly limited in that aspect, with most of it being focused on the self. Unless of course you pick the paragon path which focuses upon buffs and debuffs, in which case the monk is capable of healing their party though not in as big bursts as say a DC, or as consistently as an OP. However in order to make up for that the monk's heals are attached to damaging powers, which enables the monk to remain as both DPS and possess a secondary role at the same time.

spookholio

Great project, would love to see The Monk Class in Neverwinter!

Maybe someday, huh?

thesensai

spookholio wrote: »

Great project, would love to see The Monk Class in Neverwinter!

Maybe someday, huh?

DITO!

we can all dream, and hoard cash for zen until that day arrives.

quoll

suicidalgodot wrote: »

On a more serious note: I'm looking forward to the Monk, too, but I'm afraid it'll play like a permaStun TR with an unstealthed ITC and an HR's mobility. Plus probably some healing.

You're probably right. Its a shame though as I think this game would benefit from having another shieldless tank option, even better if that option is also swordless.

Seems like the only MMOs that move away from shield using tanks are ones made outside the western world these days.

felixkam

quoll wrote: »

You're probably right. Its a shame though as I think this game would benefit from having another shieldless tank option, even better if that option is also swordless.

Seems like the only MMOs that move away from shield using tanks are ones made outside the western world these days.

Would prefer the next tank to be maceless too :P, but you can't get everything I guess. Monk as a tank in my designs would revolve around deflection, dodging and mobility. With the latter two tying in together.

thesensai

good thing is there is a HUGE Asian style empire on the same continent as neverwinter is set in. They got monks, samurai, ninjas, all that stuff. It is definitely not contrary to setting to have such classes. Monk in particular has spread through to the swod coast 9at least from what ive read in the novels.

guille23mx

Cmon Guys!!! You all Know that the BEST MONK DESIGN would be ONE that make Shoryukens and Cyclone Kicks like Ryu from Street Fighter!!!! NOW THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!!!!! )))) I WOULD LOVE TO PLAY THAT!!!!OMG YES!!!

g0dfr3y

Nice work, Felix. If I were designing the class, I would make Wisdom primary, not put damage on two stats, put % resistance ignored (ArmPen) on one of the stats, use <shift> for a roll ability (monks should be acrobatic), and maybe use <tab> for a defensive / offensive stance switch like monkey to crane. Also, I would rather see a stick-fighting than a bare-hands-fighting Monk.

These aren't criticisms, just different ideas.

felixkam

thesensai wrote: »

good thing is there is a HUGE Asian style empire on the same continent as neverwinter is set in. They got monks, samurai, ninjas, all that stuff. It is definitely not contrary to setting to have such classes. Monk in particular has spread through to the swod coast 9at least from what ive read in the novels.

By the power of the Kara-Tur! Monk class is fairly easy to justify, and if I were in charge of introducing it in a future mod, I would consider making a continent spread conspiracy at the Epic levels.

guille23mx wrote: »

Cmon Guys!!! You all Know that the BEST MONK DESIGN would be ONE that make Shoryukens and Cyclone Kicks like Ryu from Street Fighter!!!! NOW THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!!!!! )))) I WOULD LOVE TO PLAY THAT!!!!OMG YES!!!

Funnily enough, there's one move which looks kinda like a Hadoken under the encounter powers. As far as Shoryken and Hurricane Kicks go, some animations could likely be made to look like that lol.

felixkam

g0dfr3y wrote: »

Nice work, Felix. If I were designing the class, I would make Wisdom primary, not put damage on two stats, put % resistance ignored (ArmPen) on one of the stats, use <shift> for a roll ability (monks should be acrobatic), and maybe use <tab> for a defensive / offensive stance switch like monkey to crane. Also, I would rather see a stick-fighting than a bare-hands-fighting Monk.

These aren't criticisms, just different ideas.

Thanks for the feedback g0dfr3y. I considered making the tactical mechanic a roll but I eventually decided against it in favour of putting this level of mobility under the Monk's encounter powers. In addition the decision was made so that the monk would be more capable of utilising their potential secondary role as a tank. It is still one of the things I want to incorporate into the monk to provide additional mobility, but I'm stuck as far as how to balance it while maintaining the current status quo goes.

As far as the multiple damage stats, it's mostly a throwback to the monk's multiple ability dependency. Having played 3.5e a fair amount, MAD was one of the things I found most challenging about trying to roll a monk. The best solution I found was to try and reason with the DM to give you a larger point build. Rarely worked though with my DM However what you said does make sense, and I will take it under consideration, possibly making dexterity more obvious as the "striker" stat.

As for making the Tab mechanic stances, one of the ideas I actually considered was to incorporate stances into the Monk's abilities, in fact this remains something I'm still currently considering as a minor mechanic for the monk. The main reason why I didn't want the monk to have a stance switch tied to <tab> was because it reminded me too greatly of the HR's mechanic, and also because it would mean restricting the monk to two stances for reliable use.

For monk weapons, I actually forgot about them completely :P I got a little too caught up in other things.

thesensai

felixkam wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback g0dfr3y. I considered making the tactical mechanic a roll but I eventually decided against it in favour of putting this level of mobility under the Monk's encounter powers. In addition the decision was made so that the monk would be more capable of utilising their potential secondary role as a tank. It is still one of the things I want to incorporate into the monk to provide additional mobility, but I'm stuck as far as how to balance it while maintaining the current status quo goes.

As far as the multiple damage stats, it's mostly a throwback to the monk's multiple ability dependency. Having played 3.5e a fair amount, MAD was one of the things I found most challenging about trying to roll a monk. The best solution I found was to try and reason with the DM to give you a larger point build. Rarely worked though with my DM However what you said does make sense, and I will take it under consideration, possibly making dexterity more obvious as the "striker" stat.

As for making the Tab mechanic stances, one of the ideas I actually considered was to incorporate stances into the Monk's abilities, in fact this remains something I'm still currently considering as a minor mechanic for the monk. The main reason why I didn't want the monk to have a stance switch tied to <tab> was because it reminded me too greatly of the HR's mechanic, and also because it would mean restricting the monk to two stances for reliable use.

For monk weapons, I actually forgot about them completely :P I got a little too caught up in other things.

A staff monk would be neat, but I think you would be missing out on a golden opportunity to do something unique in this game; aka have a barehanded class. sicne you would have to have something in the slot, handwraps would work out fine (I believe they went that way in DDO).

As for the stats I think dex should give crit chance and armour pen, or at the very least there should be a feat called weapon finesse, that gives you damage crit bonuses or armour pen with dex. Wis and str should also be prim stats. Wis should affect ap gain and str bonus damage.

my 2 cents.

felixkam

thesensai wrote: »

A staff monk would be neat, but I think you would be missing out on a golden opportunity to do something unique in this game; aka have a barehanded class. sicne you would have to have something in the slot, handwraps would work out fine (I believe they went that way in DDO).

As for the stats I think dex should give crit chance and armour pen, or at the very least there should be a feat called weapon finesse, that gives you damage crit bonuses or armour pen with dex. Wis and str should also be prim stats. Wis should affect ap gain and str bonus damage.

my 2 cents.

Yup, right now the main hand item slot is for handwraps which also determine the damage dealt. I'm not sure how hand wraps would determine your damage when you're using your body to dish it out, but eh, game mechanics :P The off hand though is for a Ki implement, which tends to vary greatly.

The idea about making weapon finesse a feat is actually a really good idea, and if you don't mind, I think I'll use it. However I do plan on keeping the stats the same for now, just because I want to finish off some of the other work on the monk before reviewing the ability scores.

thesensai

felixkam wrote: »

Yup, right now the main hand item slot is for handwraps which also determine the damage dealt. I'm not sure how hand wraps would determine your damage when you're using your body to dish it out, but eh, game mechanics :P The off hand though is for a Ki implement, which tends to vary greatly.

The idea about making weapon finesse a feat is actually a really good idea, and if you don't mind, I think I'll use it. However I do plan on keeping the stats the same for now, just because I want to finish off some of the other work on the monk before reviewing the ability scores.

Sounds good, and as for how handwraps do damage,.. how to any weapons do damage? via the skill of the user, and the enchantments placed on them. In all practicality, one sword is pretty much as dangerous as any other, it is pretty much 90% the skill of the user how much damage it will cause. games like this they build people's abilities via gear, because otherwise gear wouldn't be important. Monks in particular are even more skill and experience based as far as their damage, and certainly handwraps are basically vehicles for magic enhancement to their prowess. In the end it doesn't really matter if they build them like a regular weapon or not. We know where the real power is coming from.

deceondarkblade

My only input is that one of the dailies should be some crazy 1000 punch attack from Fist of the North Star

felixkam wrote: »

Hello everyone, Felix Here,

Since no one bothers checking the Art & Fiction section of the forums I figured I'd post something here briefly to ask if anyone would be willing to help me out with putting the finishing touches on a monk class I've been working on for Neverwinter Online. Please do keep in mind that this is a fan project, and does not necessarily show/prove any of your suspicions about what Cryptic will be doing.

If you are interested in taking a look at the class, please feel free to click the link below. Almost any and all feedback would be highly appreciated, the major exceptions being things such as "Hurr Durr Idiot OP thinks they can be a game dev lol." which are extremely insulting and unappreciated.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?865991-The-Monk-A-Relatively-Detailed-Proposal-for-a-New-Class/

If anyone has any questions they would like to ask prior to checking out the link, please feel free to post them here, and I'll answer it as soon as possible. Questions which are highly pertinent may be copied and attached to this post with credit being given to the appropriate persons.

If anyone would like to join or help out, feel free to send me a private message.

quoll

As long as it looks nice and martial artsy i'm good w/ pretty much anything they do...Well as long as they don't have the monk spin like a GWF.

As for hand weapons, i'm thinking monks' fist weapons would start off at some dirty wraps and end w/ dragon bone/dragon claw cesti.

for reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cestus

Given the number of possible monk weps we may see some of the more exotic options.

felixkam

quoll wrote: »

As long as it looks nice and martial artsy i'm good w/ pretty much anything they do...Well as long as they don't have the monk spin like a GWF.

As for hand weapons, i'm thinking monks' fist weapons would start off at some dirty wraps and end w/ dragon bone/dragon claw cesti.

for refrence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cestus

Given the number of possible monk weps we may see some of the more exotic options.

Sorry for the late reply, couldn't find the thread cause they moved it As far as spinning, there's no actual spin to win moves in it.

I was thinking it would range from standard handwraps, to tekko, to something like cestus, and maybe include something like gauntlets in it as well.

lady808

Would looooooooove to see a monk class. If it was too powerful, I'd have to not play it though. I'm heavy into masochism as evident with my propensity for playing the weakest classes in PvP at the time.

felixkam

lady808 wrote: »

Would looooooooove to see a monk class. If it was too powerful, I'd have to not play it though. I'm heavy into masochism as evident with my propensity for playing the weakest classes in PvP at the time.

That would obviously be a TR amirite? *sarcasm.

Personally would love to play a monk as well, but that's mostly because the idea of punching gods, pit fiends, and primordials would be awesome.

quoll

There is nothing like the feeling of punching all sorts of mystical things to death. Main reason I still miss my FFXI monk even though I came to hate much of that game.

zeusom

I was so hhoping for a monk or druid for Mod6. The whole Paladin thing seems so crowding of the DC/GF space that already exists.

felixkam

quoll wrote: »

There is nothing like the feeling of punching all sorts of mystical things to death. Main reason I still miss my FFXI monk even though I came to hate much of that game.

I am reminded of Hibari from Hitman Reborn going "I'll bite you to death."

zeusom wrote: »

I was so hoping for a monk or druid for Mod6. The whole Paladin thing seems so crowding of the DC/GF space that already exists.

Did you try playing OP in the Preview server? Oath of Protection literally gets more temp hp then they actually have from a single encounter, while Oath of Devotion can aggro most lairs and still out heal them just by spamming the the at-will combined with Aura of Divinity and Aura of Restoration. Although to be fair, the most recent release being the SW kinda crowded the striker space as well, not that it really matters

lady808

felixkam "That would obviously be a TR amirite? *sarcasm."


No idea what you're talking about. Do I have a level 60 rogue? Yes. I stopped playing her a little after open beta. She does fine as a Leadership mule though. What do I play now? Currently, it's a temptation SW. That weak enough in PvP for you? /sarcasm off

You really shouldn't assume things like that. It just makes you look... Silly.
Feel free to remove your foot from your mouth now.