Suggestions to make Control Wizard fun and skillful again. (PVP)

raareee

CW has become such a skillless (Not as much as a TR) and a boring class to play. It's basically an auto-proc bot.


My suggestions:


1) Reduce Shield's effectiveness by at least 50%. I used to teleport around more often and time my dodges, now I don't even need to that much. Stack HP, enough power, put Shield, and you can pretty much be a terror to your foes unless focused by 2 or 3 people.

2) Get rid of these pathetic Auto-Procs. Storm Spell needs to go. We need high-risk high-reward playstyle

3) Make Blink (CW's dodge) break free from any kind of CC except prone obviously. For example: I'm dazed, I break free from it from teleporting away. I'm stunned... I break free from it, etc etc. This is linked to suggestion #1. If Shield is toned down, the CW will be vulnerable to damage just like back then, and has to play skillfully and time his dodges.


4) And the obvious... BRING BACK SHARD. Bring back Shard of the Endless Avalanche's damage from back then. But ONLY ON TAB (Spell Mastery). A Spell Mastery is when you master a spell... it would make sense to give it its damage back on tab since you "Master" the spell when putting it on tab. Leave it as it is non-tabbed.


With these changes we'll truly see who are the skilled CW's and who are the wanna-be's.

vasdamas

raareee wrote: »

2) Get rid of these pathetic Auto-Procs. Storm Spell needs to go. We need high-risk high-reward playstyle

The most ridiculous HAMSTER#% CWs have. I wish all multi procs were fixed though, not just storm spell.

ironzerg79

Every single class has extra damage that procs on top of stuff. Are you going to remove those, too?

vasdamas

ironzerg79 wrote: »

Every single class has extra damage that procs on top of stuff. Are you going to remove those, too?

Please don't be ridiculous, just like in that bunch of CWs in Disintegration thread they posted recently. I am talking about things that should proc once insted of twice or thrice and your SS shine on the top of it sharing it's throne with SoD.

rayrdan

vasdamas wrote: »

Please don't be ridiculous, just like in that bunch of CWs in Disintegration thread they posted recently. I am talking about things that should proc once insted of twice or thrice and your SS shine on the top of it sharing it's throne with SoD.

every class has procs, cw is the only one where those can crit and multiproc.
procs arent bad per se, 16k-18k multi procs are

ironzerg79

rayrdan wrote: »

every class has procs, cw is the only one where those can crit and multiproc.
procs arent bad per se, 16k-18k multi procs are

The chance for a CW to get a "double proc" on Storm Spell is stupidly low.

The off-hand Artifact bonus gives you a 5% chance to proc Storm Spell on ANY damage (not sure if this was actually the intended effect).

Now take you well geared CW. Crit rate of anywhere between 40-50%. Subtract your average tenacity (20%) out of that. So in PvP we're lookin at 20-30% chance to crit. Storm Spell procs 30% of the time on a crit.

Even at the high end, we're looking at 9% chance to proc Storm Spell. Now that's damage, so there's also a 5% chance to cause an additional Storm Spell proc (which doesn't automatically crit). So the chance of a double crit/non-crit is 0.45%. The chance of a crit/crit is 0.135%.

Even if you're using EotS to guarantee 100% chance to crit for a few seconds, you're still only look at 1.5% chance if every hit occurs during that few second window.

So you think that's a huge problem in PvP?

rayrdan

ironzerg79 wrote: »

The chance for a CW to get a "double proc" on Storm Spell is stupidly low.

The off-hand Artifact bonus gives you a 5% chance to proc Storm Spell on ANY damage (not sure if this was actually the intended effect).

Now take you well geared CW. Crit rate of anywhere between 40-50%. Subtract your average tenacity (20%) out of that. So in PvP we're lookin at 20-30% chance to crit. Storm Spell procs 30% of the time on a crit.

Even at the high end, we're looking at 9% chance to proc Storm Spell. Now that's damage, so there's also a 5% chance to cause an additional Storm Spell proc (which doesn't automatically crit). So the chance of a double crit/non-crit is 0.45%. The chance of a crit/crit is 0.135%.

Even if you're using EotS to guarantee 100% chance to crit for a few seconds, you're still only look at 1.5% chance if every hit occurs during that few second window.

So you think that's a huge problem in PvP?

why subtracting your average tenacity to the crit chance? it makes no sense.
even without eots, the average 50% crit chance cw with ten at wills will crit five time, causing at least 2 storm spell procs for the damage ranging from 5k deflected to 18k undeflected. when this is coupled with ray of frost which hits continuously and glyphs...well you know.. it become a problem.

denvald

hah I still use shard in pvp. I think it's hilarious to see how people are clueless at what to do to defend themselves when I keep rolling over them with my shard and cc'ing them to death XD

svekolj

ironzerg79 wrote: »

Every single class has extra damage that procs on top of stuff. Are you going to remove those, too?

yeah like gwf with one destroyer feat that causes bleed only on crit and damage is tied to power so that 4k power gwf does some extra 1000 dot
yeah man, same thing as critting stormspell, exactly the same

rayrdan

svekolj wrote: »

yeah like gwf with one destroyer feat that causes bleed only on crit and damage is tied to power so that 4k power gwf does some extra 1000 dot
yeah man, same thing as critting stormspell, exactly the same

indeed im sure storm spell wasnt supposed to crit.
its the only proc that can do it

ironzerg79

rayrdan wrote: »

why subtracting your average tenacity to the crit chance? it makes no sense.
even without eots, the average 50% crit chance cw with ten at wills will crit five time, causing at least 2 storm spell procs for the damage ranging from 5k deflected to 18k undeflected. when this is coupled with ray of frost which hits continuously and glyphs...well you know.. it become a problem.

Sorry, that's what I get for posting without my morning coffee first. I was thinking Tenacity reduced your chance to be crit, not crit damage.

So, let's update the numbers and see what happens.

ironzerg79 wrote: »

Now take you well geared CW. Crit rate of anywhere between 40-50%. Storm Spell procs 30% of the time on a crit.

Even at the high end, we're looking at 15% chance to proc Storm Spell. Now that's damage, so there's also a 5% chance to cause an additional Storm Spell proc (which doesn't automatically crit). So the chance of a double crit/non-crit is 0.75%. The chance of a crit/crit is 0.375%.

Even if you're using EotS to guarantee 100% chance to crit for a few seconds, you're still only look at 1.5% chance if every hit occurs during that few second window.

So you think that's a huge problem in PvP?

So again, looking at STRICTLY the multiproc "problem" that you brought up in the first post, we see that it's really not much of a problem.

Sure, other stuff exasperates the overly fast time-to-kill in PvP, but those affect ALL classes, like glyphs, enchants and other auto-proc sources of damage. It's not just a CW thing.

If you're going to remove that stuff (and it DOES need to be examined, not arguing against that) then it needs to be looked at for ALL classes, not just CW's.

rayrdan

ironzerg79 wrote: »

Sorry, that's what I get for posting without my morning coffee first. I was thinking Tenacity reduced your chance to be crit, not crit damage.

So, let's update the numbers and see what happens.



So again, looking at STRICTLY the multiproc "problem" that you brought up in the first post, we see that it's really not much of a problem.

Sure, other stuff exasperates the overly fast time-to-kill in PvP, but those affect ALL classes, like glyphs, enchants and other auto-proc sources of damage. It's not just a CW thing.

If you're going to remove that stuff (and it DOES need to be examined, not arguing against that) then it needs to be looked at for ALL classes, not just CW's.

as stated below, the problem is that is able to crit which is something only cws have.

ironzerg79

rayrdan wrote: »

indeed im sure storm spell wasnt supposed to crit.
its the only proc that can do it

Again, I think this is a problem with the underlying engine, not just Storm Spell. If an ability can critically hit and proc off damage, a critical hit causes the proc to also critically hit.

That's a problem that should be addressed.

But in their infinite wisdom, when Cryptic decided to "nerf" Storm Spell by making it only occur on a crit, thanks to the underlying mechanics of the engine, it was a substantial boost to the damage of Storm Spell, not a nerf. Things were more balanced with the original chance to proc on any damage at 20%, versus the chance of 30% to proc on a crit, and result in a crit. That's where the Renegade build rose to prominence, as high crit/high crit severity builds took full advantage of this interaction.

If they wanted to tone things down, they should've just reduced the chance of a Spell Storm proc to 15% or 10% on any damage and call it a day.

rayrdan

ironzerg79 wrote: »

Again, I think this is a problem with the underlying engine, not just Storm Spell. If an ability can critically hit and proc off damage, a critical hit causes the proc to also critically hit.

That's a problem that should be addressed.

But in their infinite wisdom, when Cryptic decided to "nerf" Storm Spell by making it only occur on a crit, thanks to the underlying mechanics of the engine, it was a substantial boost to the damage of Storm Spell, not a nerf. Things were more balanced with the original chance to proc on any damage at 20%, versus the chance of 30% to proc on a crit, and result in a crit. That's where the Renegade build rose to prominence, as high crit/high crit severity builds took full advantage of this interaction.

If they wanted to tone things down, they should've just reduced the chance of a Spell Storm proc to 15% or 10% on any damage and call it a day.

it should be possible, even deep gash procs on crit but does not crit

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vasdamas

Ferocious reaction multiprocs sometime too. My record 214k in sum.

yperkeimenos

Well,i play a Cw since beta and have given up on PvP,due to lack of any success..........does that mean Cws are underpowered,or that i am unskilled?. Sometimes i think it's a good thing that the Devs don't listen to the PvP "Elites" because it would ruin the game for the casual playerbase ,who don't need a 50% reduction to shield,damage,defence and so on for any class,simply because some of these same "Elites" want a challenge. If you want a challenge remove your gear and play naked. I'm tired of this: "i want harder content mentality" , that appeals to the ego of some people,whose attitude is as if they speak for everyone. Not everyone wants the game harder or their class nerfed to oblivion.Do you know what happens to a game that's too hard or requires too much grinding,or is unbalanced?.....it dies,and to be honest,the way people use the forums,makes the Bugs Section,the only thread worth taking a look at. I used to think that the Devs are unresponsive and don't listen but all in all,it's a good thing that they do what they think is best,because if they were to listen to these "Elites",the same ones that have reduced the forum into a pit of pettiness and squable, this would be a very lonely game,indeed.

beatannier

1. Shield is a Class Feature. Slotting it into the ecounter slot is irrational as CWs are controller and strikers, not tanks. Also, shield loses its main damage reduction after just 1 hit (2 on tab) or dot. Whenever I see CW with 3 active Class Features, I just kill it and it is easy since he is lit in pink from the very far. I used to be at the very top (usually 1st) of almost every GG PvP and my the very 1st target is the shiny pink frag. Always. Even before TRs or DCs as it gives me not only points and glory, but often also AP to get a next frag.

2. Just stay at 80' range from the enemy (or 90' if you have Far Spell 5/5).
3. It is already. During Blink and ~1 second after you are fully Control Immune.
4. Shard didn`t gone away, also, it got buffed since mod5 got up and shard prones for longer.
Until you are HV Cult member and you get +100% Control Bonus from nowhere. Abandon it.

ogarious

raareee wrote: »

CW has become such a skillless (Not as much as a TR) and a boring class to play. It's basically an auto-proc bot.


My suggestions:
3) Make Blink (CW's dodge) break free from any kind of CC except prone obviously. For example: I'm dazed, I break free from it from teleporting away. I'm stunned... I break free from it, etc etc. This is linked to suggestion #1. If Shield is toned down, the CW will be vulnerable to damage just like back then, and has to play skillfully and time his dodges.
.

Absolutely not. While I think it's silly and irrational that there are so many stuns and holds in this game, giving CW's a option to break free from them just by moving totally negates the reason for having them in the first place. And SW's FINALLY get a hold. Now you want a get out of jail free card for it?

pointsman

yperkeimenos wrote: »

Sometimes i think it's a good thing that the Devs don't listen to the PvP "Elites" because it would ruin the game for the casual playerbase ,who don't need a 50% reduction to shield,damage,defence and so on for any class,simply because some of these same "Elites" want a challenge. If you want a challenge remove your gear and play naked. I'm tired of this: "i want harder content mentality" , that appeals to the ego of some people,whose attitude is as if they speak for everyone. Not everyone wants the game harder or their class nerfed to oblivion.Do you know what happens to a game that's too hard or requires too much grinding,or is unbalanced?.....it dies,and to be honest,the way people use the forums,makes the Bugs Section,the only thread worth taking a look at. I used to think that the Devs are unresponsive and don't listen but all in all,it's a good thing that they do what they think is best,because if they were to listen to these "Elites",the same ones that have reduced the forum into a pit of pettiness and squable, this would be a very lonely game,indeed.

+1 to this.

The vast majority of PVP in this game is not between so-called 'elites'. It is between casual players.

If 'elite' CWs want a challenge, then play without Shield.

szejhuludpuchacz

pointsman wrote: »

+1 to this.

The vast majority of PVP in this game is not between so-called 'elites'. It is between casual players.

If 'elite' CWs want a challenge, then play without Shield.

I think storm spell crits are a bug, like deep gash was. I have read threads where mad CWs want 'fix' on gash (basically nerf gwfs damage - keep DPS throne for cw only). Now, where are you when your own skill/passive/feat doing much dmg? Huh?

Autoproc is lazy way for dealing damage. CWs have autotarget on their spells, its enough easy...

sygfried94

raareee wrote: »

CW has become such a skillless (Not as much as a TR) and a boring class to play. It's basically an auto-proc bot.


My suggestions:


1) Reduce Shield's effectiveness by at least 50%. I used to teleport around more often and time my dodges, now I don't even need to that much. Stack HP, enough power, put Shield, and you can pretty much be a terror to your foes unless focused by 2 or 3 people.

2) Get rid of these pathetic Auto-Procs. Storm Spell needs to go. We need high-risk high-reward playstyle

3) Make Blink (CW's dodge) break free from any kind of CC except prone obviously. For example: I'm dazed, I break free from it from teleporting away. I'm stunned... I break free from it, etc etc. This is linked to suggestion #1. If Shield is toned down, the CW will be vulnerable to damage just like back then, and has to play skillfully and time his dodges.


4) And the obvious... BRING BACK SHARD. Bring back Shard of the Endless Avalanche's damage from back then. But ONLY ON TAB (Spell Mastery). A Spell Mastery is when you master a spell... it would make sense to give it its damage back on tab since you "Master" the spell when putting it on tab. Leave it as it is non-tabbed.


With these changes we'll truly see who are the skilled CW's and who are the wanna-be's.

look like more for me a i want my way to play to be back on the top on pvp more than a real point of view

1 shield: look like you doesn't even understand a single thing about how shield work. shield is far from beeing overpowered. the fact that it was too easy for many class to overcome defense system is the real problem.
shield work like that: tab version : hit one :80 % damage absorb, hit 2 60 % rest 25 %. at it require 6 second without any hit to get back to previous lvl. of tab is 50 % on first hit then 25% on the rest. The only class play that is really annoyed vs shield is .. mainly TR due to their one hit / run way to play. + you loose quite the offensive power when you stack shield.

2 again it your only view. Your high risk high reward play that you describe had a huge problem: if you had some lag problem you lie on the floor when you play pve. saying he everything have to be perfect is just a silly matter. Your elitist view is just a way to kill game. + since CW get auto proc while getting their damage drop to ground. stop autoproc and actually CW will be both the weakest class in defense and the weakest class in attack

3 he ask for a i win button instead. a dodge is a dodge, not other thing

4 shard have to be a choice not the ultimate. must have that it was on the past. it require adjustment but not on the lvl you are asking. For me to make shard good (and not the pvp skill). damage on explode should be high but control weak. while passing over oponen should give a high time control but practically no damage. (actually control is the opposed from what i describe)

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djoffer1

Just want to voice my opinion, that i wish shard would get buffed a bit, not like it used to be(lets face it, having a encounter aoe spell doing the same spell as ice knife was a bit OP:)), just back to it actually being usefull. Shard is by far the most fun skill cw's have, but currently its Next to useless.

pointsman

djoffer1 wrote: »

Just want to voice my opinion, that i wish shard would get buffed a bit, not like it used to be(lets face it, having a encounter aoe spell doing the same spell as ice knife was a bit OP:)), just back to it actually being usefull. Shard is by far the most fun skill cw's have, but currently its Next to useless.

Shard is a giant PITA. I am glad I don't have to rely on it anymore. It would bug out all the time, get stuck in the walls, inexplicably go on cooldown, vanish for no reason, etc., etc.

Besides, it's just.... dumb. A CW summons a giant boulder from out of nowhere? It is out of place compared to all of the other encounters that CWs have, which at least bear a passing resemblance to one of the paragon paths or to general telekinetic powers that one would expect any CW to have (Entangle, Repel). But conjuring giant rocks from nowhere?

rayrdan

pointsman wrote: »

Shard is a giant PITA. I am glad I don't have to rely on it anymore. It would bug out all the time, get stuck in the walls, inexplicably go on cooldown, vanish for no reason, etc., etc.

Besides, it's just.... dumb. A CW summons a giant boulder from out of nowhere? It is out of place compared to all of the other encounters that CWs have, which at least bear a passing resemblance to one of the paragon paths or to general telekinetic powers that one would expect any CW to have (Entangle, Repel). But conjuring giant rocks from nowhere?

Dont talk bad about meatball

katamaster81899

I'm sorry, but I find it stupendously amusing that TRs are complaining about CWs and their procs being overpowered in PVP. I mean really, you must be kidding me, you want to get rid of our procs, try PVPing without SoD or any other procs and see how pathetically you perform.

Class balance does not equal "NERF THIS NERF THAT ERMAHGAD NERF THAT DUDE'S CLASS BECAUSE HE'S ACTUALLY ABLE TO KILL A TR ERMAHGAD"

I'm only halfway through reading the thread so far, but only 1 person has provided actually statistic data, and that would by ironzerg. And his data currently renders arguments about CWs autoprocs being too much in PVP invalid.

As for the OP's point:

I agree with the part about shard. At least that's a skill that requires you to aim and time it more. Still not super skill-requiring, but better than the current state of CW. The dodge, I don't know about that one, because then CW's would have a significant advantage over every other class. I'd rather shield remain the same, as without it CW's wouldn't stand a chance in PVP.


And then the autoprocs... You remove storm spell, you ruin the class. That's our only source of actual damage at this point in the game, and PVE CW's shouldn't be punished because PVP players are complaining. You need to keep in mind that this is a PVE game, if you want perfect balance, go play something else.

beatannier

joocycuzzzzzz wrote: »

It gives CW more survivability than GWF and GF themselves. And even ignores Shocking Execution's piercing damage and other similar things.

1 hit (or 2 if shield is tabbed) and shield is destroyed. This is how shield works. Survivability? Yeah, resist most of 1 tick (or 2 if shield is tabbed) of Entangling Force`s damage is far away from survivability. But that comes with experience.

2. Most CW runs with Thaumaturge on PvP. It`s hard to judge what tree is better. I run with Renegade too as it gives me and my whole party too much healing and damage buffs. I remember 3 sided blame at me for saying how good it Renegade a few weeks ago. Until somebody wrote the tutorial about Renegade PvP. So blind.

3. Yeah, my fault. I though OP means avoiding CC.

4. Yes, buffed.

Shard of the Endless Avalanche: This power now prones NPCs for 3.5 seconds (up from 1) and prones players for 2.25 seconds (up from 1).

See Patch NW.25.20140728a.11 notes for more details.

joocycuzzzzzz wrote: »

Go back to killing Idris or Draco.

kweassa used to personal attack when he got out of arguments too.
EOT from my side. No reason to debate with somebody who attacks me instead of providing handy feedback.