Lifesteal Suggestion: Something different

rversant

With all the suggestions going around. I thought I'd throw out one I've been having

Please do not judge this on the numbers provided, the numbers are purely there to show how the concept would work.

1 : Lifesteal has a % proc chance for all classes, this may differ depending on class.
2 : Lifesteal stat determines how much life you get back. this could be a flat 1/1 exchange, or have diminishing returns, An example could be that you have 4500 lifesteal and are a Scourge warlock, The base proc chance for warlocks is 10% (chance is lower for large aoe attacks?) (purely an example) Lifesteal has a 2/1 return ratio on points to Life gained. as such. You would have a 10% chance to gain 2250 hp back after a single target hit so averaging out at 225 hp return on hit. As we can see these numbers are quite high, but all numbers can be subject to adjustment. Keeping in mind 4500 lifesteal is pretty large amount of points you'd be losing on other stats. I will say it again, Base your opinion on the overall concept. not the numbers.


What do you guys think?

burkaanc

this idea is bad for a simple reason - RNG sucks ***

RNG is stupid mechanic used by lazy ppl who cant be bothered working on real solution

rversant

burkaanc wrote: »

this idea is bad for a simple reason - RNG sucks ***

RNG is stupid mechanic used by lazy ppl who cant be bothered working on real solution

The list of successful games with RNG (or PRNG) elements is so long it doesn't even need to be mentioned, So its not that its used by "lazy people"...


Obviously with the changes to regen incoming also I would prefer it be similar to it is now with a % on every hit, so I still have some form of sustain, but the developers dont seem to want that. so I'm just trying to think up ideas. Thanks for the input though.

burkaanc

rversant wrote: »

The list of successful games with RNG (or PRNG) elements is so long it doesn't even need to be mentioned, So its not that its used by "lazy people"...

it is lazy mechanic, sometimes used in places where mechanics dont allow accounting for player skill - like PnP or the old boring tab-targeting games. in neverwinter it shouldnt really be used for some stuff since game mechanics allow to use player skill instead, like:
Critical - cant be really made skill based(aka. target zones like headshots) since it would create too many problems cause of differences in latency etc. though i would prefer crit removed from game
Deflect - should be removed or worked in block mechanics, players can control their character well enough to gtfo from attacks, deflect would serve the same purpose in target locked/ PnP games
Life steal is not random, check Artemis Entreri vampiric dagger, that is how life steal works .

henry404

So, all you RNG haters. I'm curious as to whether you have ever played tabletop D&D. You know all those dice...

rversant

masterofmirage wrote: »

It wount matter as long as RNG is there. The big brain math types already showed that rng needs to go.
Flip a coin .. you might live or not.
or as i like to think of it now.

If RNG = true then E=Mc2= BOOM
If RNG = false then E=Mc2= SO WHAT!

It also makes class builds all start out with an 'IF' not to mention complicates how a bug could be detected because the mech has to fire to tell.

The sad part to all of it is they plan all nodules far in advanced so RNG is here to stay unless they redo alot of the mech..

My dimes worth

tnx

My problem with people saying RNG has to go is that means Crits have to go (Never going to happen..) Deflect has to go, Damage ranges on abilities have to go (so everything does an exact amount of damage, Which is kinda dull), Half the existing enchantments need to go (I wouldnt mind if they removed rng off these and made it a flat ICD) And so on. Without these random elements Sure, the feeling of "that sucks he got lucky" would largely go away but so would those WTF moments when YOU get lucky and feel awesome. Maybe Lifesteal shouldn't be RNG, and should just work as it does in other games, thats fine. I think so too, this idea was just trying to at least give the RNG some uniform in all classes having a % chance that doesnt change.

I'm wondering if its pure rng in neverwinter, or if they use a PRNG type system for it.

charononus

The system on preview is fine, you're sustain is lower but that's good. We needed a nerf.

burkaanc

henry404 wrote: »

So, all you RNG haters. I'm curious as to whether you have ever played tabletop D&D. You know all those dice...

on tabletop version dice is used because isnt possible to take players mechanic skill into account
you cant evade or aim attack on tabletop that is why you roll, you can do these things in game that is why we dont need the random here

charononus

burkaanc wrote: »

on tabletop version dice is used because isnt possible to take players mechanic skill into account
you cant evade or aim attack on tabletop that is why you roll, you can do these things in game that is why we dont need the random here

So every attack should be a crit and every hit should be a heal to full? Yeah no thanks that sounds incredibly boring and a bad game.

burkaanc

charononus wrote: »

So every attack should be a crit and every hit should be a heal to full? Yeah no thanks that sounds incredibly boring and a bad game.

are u a moron or just pretending ?

if u have played any modern fps you know how crit should work(you aim and do damage depending on hitbox), but for technical reasons its really hard to implement in mmorpg due to latency issues, that is why crit might be acceptable(or better yet just remove it from game, we dont really need crits) we have combat advantage that can replace it.
attacks are aimed by player(at least they should be) so hitting target depends on player not RNG, but while it works(more or less) for melee, it wouldnt really work for ranged for same latency reasons, thus we are forced to have target lock
deflect should either be removed from game or made as active skill, like block
every heal full ? dafuq are u smoking

rversant

I find the biggest problem with the new lifesteal is that some classes hit a lot faster than others, so as such they benefit more from the new lifesteal. even if they do less damage in those faster hits, they are regenerating hp via it faster and thus have more chance of success.

My Hunter ranger (with quite low % chance lifesteal) got heals almost 3 times as often as my GWF (who has a higher lifesteal stack), and not once did I have too use a potion. Thinking of this, my Hr's gear is around 13.5k gearscore, while my GWF is around 19k (I did some tests using their normal gear directly from live.) that was why my idea was to give each class a uniform % chance which takes into consideration how their spells work/ how fast they deal damage.

If it has to be RNG, I'd like it to at least be a more uniform rng, and the amount you "steal" is whats affected by your stat. That being said, I'd much rather it go back to being every hit, Like howalmost every other MMO / MOBA / RPG I've played treats it.

burkaanc wrote: »

are u a moron or just pretending ?

if u have played any modern fps you know how crit should work(you aim and do damage depending on hitbox), but for technical reasons its really hard to implement in mmorpg due to latency issues, that is why crit might be acceptable(or better yet just remove it from game, we dont really need crits) we have combat advantage that can replace it.
attacks are aimed by player(at least they should be) so hitting target depends on player not RNG, but while it works(more or less) for melee, it wouldnt really work for ranged for same latency reasons, thus we are forced to have target lock
deflect should either be removed from game or made as active skill, like block
every heal full ? dafuq are u smoking

Latency affects melee also.

I can understand your points. RNG can be really "un-fun" , But its a basic part of neverwinter, and MMO's as a whole, Drops are RNG, Damage ranges are RNG , etc.

charononus

burkaanc wrote: »

are u a moron or just pretending ?

if u have played any modern fps you know how crit should work(you aim and do damage depending on hitbox), but for technical reasons its really hard to implement in mmorpg due to latency issues, that is why crit might be acceptable(or better yet just remove it from game, we dont really need crits) we have combat advantage that can replace it.
attacks are aimed by player(at least they should be) so hitting target depends on player not RNG, but while it works(more or less) for melee, it wouldnt really work for ranged for same latency reasons, thus we are forced to have target lock
deflect should either be removed from game or made as active skill, like block
every heal full ? dafuq are u smoking

This game is exceptionally easy, your skill example would mean I would crit 100% of the time. Since you want lifesteal to work with no rng, that means it would do the same, which means I would be healing to full with one encounter every encounter. That is why your idea is a complete and utter failure and that it's mind boggling to think that someone thinks it's a good idea.

burkaanc

charononus wrote: »

This game is exceptionally easy, your skill example would mean I would crit 100% of the time. Since you want lifesteal to work with no rng, that means it would do the same, which means I would be healing to full with one encounter every encounter. That is why your idea is a complete and utter failure and that it's mind boggling to think that someone thinks it's a good idea.

how much $ did u win in 2014 cs world championship mister 100% headshot ?

oh please do explain me how a f... % from damage dealt@100%chance life steal stat, capped at x% of max health/second, working over y seconds would be an insta heal or RNG ?

matthiasthehun76

Hi!

Gone for 3rd option, i hate the idea of life steal nerf.

A few examples, GF is kinda dead since long, if regen is out of game, then life steal should at least help.

What will be out of classes that depend on life steal or have just a bit of it, like a GWF, totally useless, but i fear for the SW too.

All together these changes with the coming new mod seem more negative, then positive to game play. The real game braking issues are still not in eye sight.

charononus

matthiasthehun76 wrote: »

The real game braking issues are still not in eye sight.

That's where some of us disagree. Current lifesteal is a gamebreaking problem because you can become an immortal god and never worry about dying currently.

fenrir4life

I honestly like this idea- it fully divorces lifesteal from other stat dependencies, which would fix the runaway lifesteal problem on high AoE classes.
As it is on live, there's a relatively low point where it becomes better for your survival to stack damage instead of lifesteal, since lifesteal absolute returns scale with damage. The version on the PTS, for all that it has thrown a hammer at a lot of existing builds, greatly raises the soft cap at which you want to stop stacking life steal and start stacking power.

Ok, this won't show up on the poll, but I'd amend the idea in the following way: proc chance goes away, but returns remain based on lifesteal rating alone, not a calculated proportion of damage, and are given over a few seconds. This would stack, but with a ~1 sec. internal cooldown. Depending on how hard they wanted to hit AoE lifesteal, AoEs might generate two stacks instead of one if they hit three or more targets.
Class features, feats, etc. that increase lifesteal by a percentage would have to be tweaked, certainly. To retain their current efficacy, most would have to confer significantly greater numbers, or reduce the ICD on gaining stacks or... I don't know. I don't have a solid answer there, but it's something that I'd be willing to see explored.

rversant

fenrir4life wrote: »

I honestly like this idea- it fully divorces lifesteal from other stat dependencies, which would fix the runaway lifesteal problem on high AoE classes.
As it is on live, there's a relatively low point where it becomes better for your survival to stack damage instead of lifesteal, since lifesteal absolute returns scale with damage. The version on the PTS, for all that it has thrown a hammer at a lot of existing builds, greatly raises the soft cap at which you want to stop stacking life steal and start stacking power.

Ok, this won't show up on the poll, but I'd amend the idea in the following way: proc chance goes away, but returns remain based on lifesteal rating alone, not a calculated proportion of damage, and are given over a few seconds. This would stack, but with a ~1 sec. internal cooldown. Depending on how hard they wanted to hit AoE lifesteal, AoEs might generate two stacks instead of one if they hit three or more targets.
Class features, feats, etc. that increase lifesteal by a percentage would have to be tweaked, certainly. To retain their current efficacy, most would have to confer significantly greater numbers, or reduce the ICD on gaining stacks or... I don't know. I don't have a solid answer there, but it's something that I'd be willing to see explored.

This. thank you for the awesome feedback, and I personally love your modifications to it.

I wouldnt have it as a HoT though, and for AOE abilities I would scale the return based on targets hit (so aoe skills do give more than single target, but its scaled to match, perhaps 1 target 100% efficiency, 2-3 at 50% (so 100-150% total) 4 at 40% and 5+ at 33% efficiency , These obviously are rough numbers but overall it means that the most you're going to get is around 150-170% for multiple targets as most skills have a hit limit on targets. The ICD is a good idea though, This basically means multi hitting skills wont drain a huge amount over a short time, but because the amount drained is based on your lifesteal stat, and not your damage, it balances out.

ayroux

I guess I am lost as to what you guys are proposing.

Lifesteal Stat is now the amount you are healed by off every attack? So say I have 5000 Lifesteal (how would you propose the ToD boons as well as Lifedrinker BTW)

What would my self heal be based off of?

rversant

ayroux wrote: »

I guess I am lost as to what you guys are proposing.

Lifesteal Stat is now the amount you are healed by off every attack? So say I have 5000 Lifesteal (how would you propose the ToD boons as well as Lifedrinker BTW)

What would my self heal be based off of?

So purely as an example using actual numbers. you have 5000 lifesteal stat, Lets just say for this case that the scaling was 2:1 to make things simple. so 5000 Stat means 2500 heal from your hit (less in PVP due to HD? or would lifesteal be exempt from this??) , with the 1 second icd (maybe this should be longer) . boons could increase the actual overall stat by a %. and lifedrinker could do the same. That could be an example.


so adding to this my idea of scaling depending on targets hit. 33% for 5 targets (big aoe skill) = 165% return for 4125 heal off the aoe skill. which is a fair bit, but not crazy , and not RNG

ghoulz66

A fixed HoT based on % of health would be the easiest workaround for the DEVs so no AoE spammers win in this situation. Bulky fighters get more in return. CWs can't facetank anymore.

rversant

itd be really cool if they did a DEV AMA / Question time on a chat, or on reddit, it could be moderated so only one question could be asked at a time in order for them to not be overflowed, and the questions could be moderated for quality.
maybe even we could gather a list of questions and ideas on the forum and then they reply to that, however sadly the chances of that are slim.

ghoulz66

masterofmirage wrote: »

True but thats not what they want from us. They got resions why there adding rng to it. Your not wrong but .. ummm

tnx

Their next solution is to add more buggy script into the game to nerf the CWs use out of the RNG lifesteal. This is only going to cause more issues than it's worth. Not to mention this is hurting the hell out of GWFs already. It was an idea, they put it to the test, and it's not holding up well.

doctordarkspawn

I feel as if the stacking heal over time was exactly what Lifesteal should have been. The only thing I am concerned about, is will the warrior classes get punished because of chance modifiers. And it's looking that way.

Either keep the old lifesteal, which has worked as everyone's consensus, and allows high single target damage to survive, or go with the stacking HoT option. My guardian fighter or Great weapon fight should not be punished because we dont hit as many targets as the CW. And that's what the Random chance option will do. Enough with random chance. Enough with caster supremacy.

burkaanc

doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Either keep the old lifesteal, which has worked as everyone's consensus, and allows high single target damage to survive, or go with the stacking HoT option. My guardian fighter or Great weapon fight should not be punished because we dont hit as many targets as the CW. And that's what the Random chance option will do. Enough with random chance. Enough with caster supremacy.

this might explain some thing about why they made life steal as it is

panderus wrote: »

Aw man, as a Wizard as my main .....

probably nobody there even plays gwf/tr/gf

rversant

burkaanc wrote: »

this might explain some thing about why they made life steal as it is


probably nobody there even plays gwf/tr/gf

Idealy they would play all classes and not only do pve content together, but pit themselves against each other in PVP with the same level of gear. Then they'd be able to get a better idea of whats broken and not, or at least a basic one... (As player skill would come into this) Like with GWF, Continuously buffing our damage is cool and all, I mean I like seeing bigger hits, But if we die before landing anything, or every time we get close we get dodged. its not what we need, To be honest even if they buffed us back to mod 3, we'd still be outclassed by the new CW/TR

angrymanagement

rversant wrote: »

I To be honest even if they buffed us back to mod 3, we'd still be outclassed by the new CW/TR

LOL, I permanently retired my PVP GWF in mod 3, just because it was so boringly OP. Nothing could kill it short of a 3 man coordinated prone chain. The only thing it couldn't kill was a CW that gave up all damage for knockbacks & just ran away the entire match or a stealth build movement speed TR that just ran away. The only current thing that would have any chance at a mod 3 GWF would be a TR, & my money would be on the mod 3 GWF.

I'm not sure what I think of the current life steal on test. You can stack it well over 20% at lvl 70, which leaves it very unreliable still, but when it hits, it hits big.

Right now, I'm not sure why regen would be cosidered valuable to anyone other than a perma TR, and even then is it worth getting a single point.

rversant

angrymanagement wrote: »

LOL, I permanently retired my PVP GWF in mod 3, just because it was so boringly OP. Nothing could kill it short of a 3 man coordinated prone chain. The only thing it couldn't kill was a CW that gave up all damage for knockbacks & just ran away the entire match or a stealth build movement speed TR that just ran away. The only current thing that would have any chance at a mod 3 GWF would be a TR, & my money would be on the mod 3 GWF.

I'm not sure what I think of the current life steal on test. You can stack it well over 20% at lvl 70, which leaves it very unreliable still, but when it hits, it hits big.

Right now, I'm not sure why regen would be cosidered valuable to anyone other than a perma TR, and even then is it worth getting a single point.

Yeah I see regen as extremely useless for PVP now, so they're gonna want to look at reworking PVP artifacts/ gear with it.. I mean adding drow is good and all, But please dont just forget about black ice / other pvp sets. Some of us spent painstaking months farming their black ice pieces / dailies. hey they should totally make it so Black ice can be added to any gear and just empowers its stats / Adds tenacity and overload slots :P (I'm picturing an Empowered AoW set with big pauldrons)


And with lifesteal you can stack it to 20%... But at what cost of other stats I think the suggestion that was on page 3 was pretty good though. making it 100% lifesteal, Adding a ICD, and making the amount stolen based on the lifesteal stat (with % scaling for AOE)

And We were mindblowingly op in Mod 3 , But seriously some of the damage I've seen put out by CW / TR lately, they'd one shot the GWF before he had a chance to lock them down.

burkaanc

angrymanagement wrote: »

LOL, I permanently retired my PVP GWF in mod 3, just because it was so boringly OP. Nothing could kill it short of a 3 man coordinated prone chain. The only thing it couldn't kill was a CW that gave up all damage for knockbacks & just ran away the entire match or a stealth build movement speed TR that just ran away. The only current thing that would have any chance at a mod 3 GWF would be a TR, & my money would be on the mod 3 GWF.

I'm not sure what I think of the current life steal on test. You can stack it well over 20% at lvl 70, which leaves it very unreliable still, but when it hits, it hits big.

Right now, I'm not sure why regen would be cosidered valuable to anyone other than a perma TR, and even then is it worth getting a single point.

mod3 gwf had DR, TR ignores DR, simple as that, ofc bugged roar would give more chances to catch them but dont count on it

talan010

Get rid of lifesteal completely. Instead use second wind which was in 4th edition.

Second wind was a heal that everyone had that was an encounter. It was a heal for 25% of your total HP but could be increases to 50% by feat or class abilities in 4th edition. It also provided a short buff to defense.

So bind a key like the "z" for an encounter power ever character can use. It would function as another encounter power that every character always had available

The this game stat could either reduce the coldown time or increase the% healed. I would prefer stat increasing heal. Start at 25% and as the stat increases the heal % would go up till it capped at 50%.

rversant

talan010 wrote: »

Get rid of lifesteal completely. Instead use second wind which was in 4th edition.

Second wind was a heal that everyone had that was an encounter. It was a heal for 25% of your total HP but could be increases to 50% by feat or class abilities in 4th edition. It also provided a short buff to defense.

So bind a key like the "z" for an encounter power ever character can use. It would function as another encounter power that every character always had available

The this game stat could either reduce the coldown time or increase the% healed. I would prefer stat increasing heal. Start at 25% and as the stat increases the heal % would go up till it capped at 50%.

Would require a total rework for warlocks, which they probably wont do for a mod or 2.

talan010

Yes so either rework the lock now or make lifesteal a class feature for the lock with present lifesteal mechanic and a base percent for the class modified only by feats. Besides changing lifesteal to a proc already risks making the Temptation tree either worthless or overpowered all bases on how high the proc chance can be increases.

The other way the healing a temptation can be calculated and balanced. Healing class that can't heal when required will not be wanted so that build will alread be in trouble with the proposed change.