I'm glad my points on how solo'ing undermines the economy fell on deaf ears. Moderators should just close this thread it's become trolling and non-constructive especially with Mod 6 greatly changing the ability to "solo" anyway.
I said this in a first place. Once you allow everyone to solo, a lot of things will change. Not only the economy, but many things. Module 6 will reduce the chance to solo and according to developers, they planning to construct a stronger party play. They going to nerf life steal and regeneration, buff monsters so that they will have nearly up to 90% armor pen resistance.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited February 2015
IMO, the issue with soloing vs teaming should be addressed by rewarding people for doing so, not by punishing them. For instance, having to compete for gear is a huge detriment toward making people want to team. If enemies dropped individualized gear for each player, (think of how drops work in CTAs), then things improve.
Don't get me wrong - I do like being able to run a few quests here or there, on my own terms, but the incentive to team just isn't as strong as it should be...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Well MMOs are all about how players are experiencing them and how different people find different ways to enjoy the game. Variety makes it fun. But by forcing us to enter a dungeon with a 5 player team isn't really doing this. Players should be free with their way of playing this game and how they are playing this game. We shouldn't be forced to play in a straight one way.
Well MMOs are all about how players are experiencing them and how different people find different ways to enjoy the game. Variety makes it fun. But by forcing us to enter a dungeon with a 5 player team isn't really doing this. Players should be free with their way of playing this game and how they are playing this game. We shouldn't be forced to play in a straight one way.
That is a very narrow minded view.
MMOs in general have large amounts of content which can be played either solo or in groups, that's very much players' choice. Such content falls under the post by Bioshrike just before yours, with the motivation governed by incentives and personal interest.
But, no MMO would be an MMO without content created specifically for groups. Content targeting group play is a characteristic and tool of an MMO which allows developers to create challenging content and gate desirable rewards.
If such group content fail to bring challenge or feel rewarding to group play, that is failure by design through the developers hands, and remains the developer's job to rectify. However, to want to solo such content due to the developer's design folly because one wants to have all the drops to himself is a selfish and narrow reason. Instead, it would be better to request developers to reconsider their design mistakes and improve rewards for these group content.
It hardly would hurt to implement this would it now? If people want to try and see how they can do solo, why shouldn't they? Furthermore maybe you have a group of 4 people and don't want or need a 5th. Maybe you want to split the loot between you without a risky 5th ninja. Not that loot is worth anything nowadays anyway, but still, nothing wrong with OPs suggestion.
As for those who stress the Multiplayer part of MMO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the game been progressively single player focused and less team based since mod 1? We have tonnes of campaign systems that anyone can easily solo themselves, dungeons that have loot you barely even want, open world stuff which although isn't single player, is still less social that grouped play, and a raid where you can't even play with friends or guildies.
I think the OP should be criticised less and understood more for actually trying to make the game interesting than it actually is considering that's the only way to get any challenge from it. Unless you play with people who don't know what they're doing or try to know what they're doing of course.
Whether his/her suggestion should be implemented is up for debate, but it's a valid suggestion nonetheless.
I think the OP should be criticised less and understood more for actually trying to make the game interesting than it actually is considering that's the only way to get any challenge from it. Unless you play with people who don't know what they're doing or try to know what they're doing of course.
Whether his/her suggestion should be implemented is up for debate, but it's a valid suggestion nonetheless.
Most of the views against him actually comes from understanding his reasons for requesting the feature.
He's too strong and doesn't want to pug dungeons because he needs to share loot rolls with weaker players. It is unfair to him that he does all the work and the most damage. He can't find himself on teams with equal or better gear.
The truth with every MMO is, that with constant character progression against content that have become stagnant, power creep is inevitable, since the original content was designed against a previous standard. To be blunt, better geared players move on, and you don't find them on your PUG teams because they are thinking the same thing about the OP, "Why should I team up with him in a pug if he's planning to ride on my coattails? I don't even know him."
To request for solo entry into dungeons is not wrong, his reasons however may not have sat well with others.
If it's purely for challenge, this is about to become a non-issue pretty soon, disregarding other changes, a new level cap means the current dungeons will become under-leveled leveling content which should be replaced by new challenging end game content. Those should be the focus for players to request the developers get right in terms of challenge.
Queues unlocked for Cragmire Crypts, Gray Wolf Den and Temple of the Spider dungeons for both level 70 Epic versions and 3 man leveling versions.
MMOs should always have group content as I have mentioned in a previous post, it's a tool for developers to create increasing challenge and gate desirable rewards. Players wanting to try dungeons solo can easily be made a feature, but that should never eliminate group content as such a tool.
Solo entry can exist alongside group queues. One possible way to do it is have the dungeon scale to increasing difficulty (possibly to the average item level), and higher rewards against this difficulty such as gear with better quality or stats, but not a constant challenge/reward denominator to a single player and a group alike. That will be a failure of design.
Again, I restate, with mod 6 coming, making all this fuss because one can solo the current implementation of dungeons isn't going to be taken seriously. If the situation still warrants it in mod 6, make the request again then.
I'm just guessing here, but this is an MMO and dungeons are not meant to be soloed. It is part of the multiplayer content as it is in most other MMOs on this internet. If you want to solo big dungeons I recommend playing a single player RPG.
Lol. Here's a another opinion:
Neverwinter is unique because lots of us coming from d&d and single player rpgs like old Neverwinter, Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, Dragon Age etc and not from vanille MMOs like Wow, Lineage etc.
And we enjoyed the good levelling story and foundries with good story and would do appreciate single player part of the game.
Personally I'd go further I would appreciate some privacy hour, a single player dungeon mode and a full invisiblity mode (the horror!) because sometimes when I login people just jump me and it takes an hour till I can go around and invoke with my alts...
So this "mandatory" sociality is a bit too much for me sorry...
Again, I restate, with mod 6 coming, making all this fuss because one can solo the current implementation of dungeons isn't going to be taken seriously. If the situation still warrants it in mod 6, make the request again then.
And then he/she would be lucky for it to be even considered for mod 7. By the looks of things they're going to mess up the whole system and I'd bet the repeat the whole thing again if the game is still going. Obviously you shouldn't be able to solo grouped content, but I see no problem entering regardless. Especially when they currently have more gear than the existing content. It's similar to the way we can enter normal dungeons with a lower gs. But yes they are reworking a lot, which is a shame to remove the level 60 content that had any form of interest.
The content isn't here, but the OP is trying to make it here. He's trying to add more life than the devs have been who just force us into stuff we don't like to keep us playing.
I would've especially been interested in forming 4 man parties back in the day.
No, not REPLACED!
That would be fatally wrong.
There are many very casual players and new players seem to be a primary target group too.
Those will be terribly disappointed and frustrated when they can't finish any dungeon.
So there'll be a continuing demand for easy dungeons.
....so please just ADD the harder ones, don't replace the easier ones.
They are being replaced. For any looking for challenge, retaining current endgame is pointless. The endgame scene is being adjusted and replaced with versions suited for the new level cap. That's not to say mod 6 will not bring about new content. Balancing the new endgame is IMHO more important than adding a queue for the current epic dungeons and since that dynamic is about to get a drastic makeover, I'm not optimistic that request will become a priority. I'm not talking about the easy stuff, merely what should be content for endgame.
Especially when they currently have more gear than the existing content.
I'll just pick what I want to read, and say you agree that's the current situation. That situation however is about to change in the short term, for better or worse. I see no problem then, for now, and await to see what arises.
I don't know if the nobler intentions is yours, or the OP's. He expressly informed everyone he doesn't want to have to share the rewards when he can solo epic dungeons. I don't think he meant he wanted the solo queue purely for it's mechanic, surely not for any unrewarding content not worth farming. We'll see in mod 6 if one can no longer solo endgame group content or if endgame is still a piece of cake, if he'll make this request again.
I have not disapproved of a solo queue, however, the OP's intentions are not valid enough reasons. I still do believe that even having a solo queue should not invalidate the purpose of group content in my previous post. Single queue instance need not have the same common challenge/reward denominator as a group queue instance.
I'll just pick what I want to read, and say you agree that's the current situation. That situation however is about to change in the short term, for better or worse. I see no problem then, for now, and await to see what arises.
I don't know if the nobler intentions is yours, or the OP's. He expressly informed everyone he doesn't want to have to share the rewards when he can solo epic dungeons. I don't think he meant he wanted the solo queue purely for it's mechanic, surely not for any unrewarding content not worth farming. We'll see in mod 6 if one can no longer solo endgame group content or if endgame is still a piece of cake, if he'll make this request again.
I have not disapproved of a solo queue, however, the OP's intentions are not valid enough reasons. I still do believe that even having a solo queue should not invalidate the purpose of group content in my previous post. Single queue instance need not have the same common challenge/reward denominator as a group queue instance.
Well yes, but I see no reason why not to allow people to enter even if they aren't able to solo it right away, and like I say, being able to enter with a custom group size rather than the set 5 would be nice. Whether they'd implement it or if it's worth it I'm not saying. Given the state of the game over a year ago, I would have said it'd be a very welcome feature to have custom group sizes. Now that they've destroyed loot rewards from any form of interesting play, it's a bit more niche. I for one have entered solo in CN for the challenge, one time people kept joining which was annoying when they were ruining the run when they really need a full group that would not enter this one then other times with the help of others to fill the queue permanently though still failing on draco :c. The time people came in I really didn't want people to roll on the loot that I did 100% of the work for just because they entered the right minute. It is a bummer having to get a full premade to d/c or not leave party in order to not hog the queue.
Anyway the point is that ideally you could enter with what you like, whether it's solo when eventually you out-level the content or with less members for a better chance of getting the loot if the team can handle it.
Personally I'm not too bothered about this with loot being so low in value and/or chance to drop and have felt better about having my playtime more limited for this game. I can see interest in this feature in a better implemented game though.
Well yes, but I see no reason why not to allow people to enter even if they aren't able to solo it right away, and like I say, being able to enter with a custom group size rather than the set 5 would be nice. Whether they'd implement it or if it's worth it I'm not saying. Given the state of the game over a year ago, I would have said it'd be a very welcome feature to have custom group sizes. Now that they've destroyed loot rewards from any form of interesting play, it's a bit more niche. I for one have entered solo in CN for the challenge, one time people kept joining which was annoying when they were ruining the run when they really need a full group that would not enter this one then other times with the help of others to fill the queue permanently though still failing on draco :c. The time people came in I really didn't want people to roll on the loot that I did 100% of the work for just because they entered the right minute. It is a bummer having to get a full premade to d/c or not leave party in order to not hog the queue.
Anyway the point is that ideally you could enter with what you like, whether it's solo when eventually you out-level the content or with less members for a better chance of getting the loot if the team can handle it.
Personally I'm not too bothered about this with loot being so low in value and/or chance to drop and have felt better about having my playtime more limited for this game. I can see interest in this feature in a better implemented game though.
Need solo queue be a necessity simply because one has out level endgame content? Let's say the queue is broadened to an adjustable size. Would not the scenario for such a mechanic like the one I described where difficulty scale with average item level and reward scale with group size on top of item level (eg. 3 or more a different tier) be better? Then any group size can be in for a challenge and rewards scale against said challenge.
What I don't get is when the reason is for challenge, if we are to make a suggestion, why would the ideal scenario be a solo queue due to increasing character progression against stagnant difficulty (and why would not having to share loot be of such importance)? That solves nothing in the long run as the content still would not increase against character progression and said content will only go from soloable to swatting flies eventually..
I can understand if the intention is to add the queue for fun, but if it's unrewarding (and underlevel from endgame), it's only fun so many times. (I don't expect many level 60s have gone back and soloed lower level leveling dungeons more than once.) However, if the intention is for challenge, then why not be far sighted and do it right, like suggest something else that can benefit an adjustable queue, and be challenging and rewarding at the same time. I'm just saying the perspectives can be many, we may see a better way when we set aside more personal or loot driven intentions.
Well any kind of scaling difficulty is something I wouldn't expect them to do well. Rewards being rewarding isn't something I see either since they've been in decline since mod 1 started and yet requirements for BiS have gone up. I don't see why an adjustable queue would take that much work, they already have it for normal dungeons pretty much.
Seeing balance in both PvE and PvP I'm just unconvinced they can do what you want right. I'm not against it though. It would just be convenient for custom groups no matter the content.
toxicwolfieMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 41Arc User
edited February 2015
Read half of this thread before getting to the point that I had to speak.Solo anything isn't ever going to happen.Neverwinter is well known for being based on D&D.And D&D in it's self is a table top MMO.Yes other games have the solo choice,but this is not those games.I myself see no need for solo runs,as an MMO is made to be a group thing.This is the same as the hardcore PvP'ers crying that no one PvP's anymore.They screwed that up them selves and adding solo epic runs would do the same.
Let me be clear here.My main point what other games do or do not have,dose not matter here.This is Neverwinter,made by D&D fans for D&D fans,based off D&D lore.Deal with what is or find a game that can make you happy.
Well, you better hope they do, because that's exactly what they are doing to the current dungeons now: scaling them up to 70, as well as scaling them to a 3-man group.
Other than that, I have to agree with Wimp here. Adding solo-queues to multi-user dungeons isn't the answer to the increasing power creep. More rewarding solo-content, like what the foundry should be for example, would do a much better job at keeping solo PvEers occupied.
I never said it was an answer to it, just that it could be an additional option. You're entitled to your opinion either way, it's not something I'd argue that heavily for.
As for the scaling, the old content wasn't really scaled that well tbh. Karrundax and CN had insane amount of adds, tos had a boss a lot harder than the rest of the dungeon with so much healing when there was no debuff boon, dread vault was much harder than what it was worth, some t1s were harder than t2s and a lot of people resorted to exploiting until they had the gear that allowed them to not worry so much when they eventually fixed some of the issues. Nonetheless it was still a better time than now and if they can recreate that along with the rewards, then it can only be a good thing. However it looks like they're changing so much that I think they're changing more than what they can actually handle. Designing a single difficulty would be easier than further scaling options and I anticipate people aren't going to be happy anyway, but we'll see.
Why dont you just run to the dungeon you want and enter?I dont know any mmorpg that i play with the option to enter solo from lf dungeon system.
The OP wants to run the epic versions solo... using the actual door is the non-epic version.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Comments
I said this in a first place. Once you allow everyone to solo, a lot of things will change. Not only the economy, but many things. Module 6 will reduce the chance to solo and according to developers, they planning to construct a stronger party play. They going to nerf life steal and regeneration, buff monsters so that they will have nearly up to 90% armor pen resistance.
Don't get me wrong - I do like being able to run a few quests here or there, on my own terms, but the incentive to team just isn't as strong as it should be...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
That is a very narrow minded view.
MMOs in general have large amounts of content which can be played either solo or in groups, that's very much players' choice. Such content falls under the post by Bioshrike just before yours, with the motivation governed by incentives and personal interest.
But, no MMO would be an MMO without content created specifically for groups. Content targeting group play is a characteristic and tool of an MMO which allows developers to create challenging content and gate desirable rewards.
If such group content fail to bring challenge or feel rewarding to group play, that is failure by design through the developers hands, and remains the developer's job to rectify. However, to want to solo such content due to the developer's design folly because one wants to have all the drops to himself is a selfish and narrow reason. Instead, it would be better to request developers to reconsider their design mistakes and improve rewards for these group content.
As for those who stress the Multiplayer part of MMO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the game been progressively single player focused and less team based since mod 1? We have tonnes of campaign systems that anyone can easily solo themselves, dungeons that have loot you barely even want, open world stuff which although isn't single player, is still less social that grouped play, and a raid where you can't even play with friends or guildies.
I think the OP should be criticised less and understood more for actually trying to make the game interesting than it actually is considering that's the only way to get any challenge from it. Unless you play with people who don't know what they're doing or try to know what they're doing of course.
Whether his/her suggestion should be implemented is up for debate, but it's a valid suggestion nonetheless.
That was just a product of their awful decisions on introducing too man powercreep items.
Most of the views against him actually comes from understanding his reasons for requesting the feature.
He's too strong and doesn't want to pug dungeons because he needs to share loot rolls with weaker players. It is unfair to him that he does all the work and the most damage. He can't find himself on teams with equal or better gear.
The truth with every MMO is, that with constant character progression against content that have become stagnant, power creep is inevitable, since the original content was designed against a previous standard. To be blunt, better geared players move on, and you don't find them on your PUG teams because they are thinking the same thing about the OP, "Why should I team up with him in a pug if he's planning to ride on my coattails? I don't even know him."
To request for solo entry into dungeons is not wrong, his reasons however may not have sat well with others.
If it's purely for challenge, this is about to become a non-issue pretty soon, disregarding other changes, a new level cap means the current dungeons will become under-leveled leveling content which should be replaced by new challenging end game content. Those should be the focus for players to request the developers get right in terms of challenge.
MMOs should always have group content as I have mentioned in a previous post, it's a tool for developers to create increasing challenge and gate desirable rewards. Players wanting to try dungeons solo can easily be made a feature, but that should never eliminate group content as such a tool.
Solo entry can exist alongside group queues. One possible way to do it is have the dungeon scale to increasing difficulty (possibly to the average item level), and higher rewards against this difficulty such as gear with better quality or stats, but not a constant challenge/reward denominator to a single player and a group alike. That will be a failure of design.
Again, I restate, with mod 6 coming, making all this fuss because one can solo the current implementation of dungeons isn't going to be taken seriously. If the situation still warrants it in mod 6, make the request again then.
Lol. Here's a another opinion:
Neverwinter is unique because lots of us coming from d&d and single player rpgs like old Neverwinter, Baldur's gate, Icewind Dale, Dragon Age etc and not from vanille MMOs like Wow, Lineage etc.
And we enjoyed the good levelling story and foundries with good story and would do appreciate single player part of the game.
Personally I'd go further I would appreciate some privacy hour, a single player dungeon mode and a full invisiblity mode (the horror!) because sometimes when I login people just jump me and it takes an hour till I can go around and invoke with my alts...
So this "mandatory" sociality is a bit too much for me sorry...
And then he/she would be lucky for it to be even considered for mod 7. By the looks of things they're going to mess up the whole system and I'd bet the repeat the whole thing again if the game is still going. Obviously you shouldn't be able to solo grouped content, but I see no problem entering regardless. Especially when they currently have more gear than the existing content. It's similar to the way we can enter normal dungeons with a lower gs. But yes they are reworking a lot, which is a shame to remove the level 60 content that had any form of interest.
The content isn't here, but the OP is trying to make it here. He's trying to add more life than the devs have been who just force us into stuff we don't like to keep us playing.
I would've especially been interested in forming 4 man parties back in the day.
I'll just pick what I want to read, and say you agree that's the current situation. That situation however is about to change in the short term, for better or worse. I see no problem then, for now, and await to see what arises.
I don't know if the nobler intentions is yours, or the OP's. He expressly informed everyone he doesn't want to have to share the rewards when he can solo epic dungeons. I don't think he meant he wanted the solo queue purely for it's mechanic, surely not for any unrewarding content not worth farming. We'll see in mod 6 if one can no longer solo endgame group content or if endgame is still a piece of cake, if he'll make this request again.
I have not disapproved of a solo queue, however, the OP's intentions are not valid enough reasons. I still do believe that even having a solo queue should not invalidate the purpose of group content in my previous post. Single queue instance need not have the same common challenge/reward denominator as a group queue instance.
Well yes, but I see no reason why not to allow people to enter even if they aren't able to solo it right away, and like I say, being able to enter with a custom group size rather than the set 5 would be nice. Whether they'd implement it or if it's worth it I'm not saying. Given the state of the game over a year ago, I would have said it'd be a very welcome feature to have custom group sizes. Now that they've destroyed loot rewards from any form of interesting play, it's a bit more niche. I for one have entered solo in CN for the challenge, one time people kept joining which was annoying when they were ruining the run when they really need a full group that would not enter this one then other times with the help of others to fill the queue permanently though still failing on draco :c. The time people came in I really didn't want people to roll on the loot that I did 100% of the work for just because they entered the right minute. It is a bummer having to get a full premade to d/c or not leave party in order to not hog the queue.
Anyway the point is that ideally you could enter with what you like, whether it's solo when eventually you out-level the content or with less members for a better chance of getting the loot if the team can handle it.
Personally I'm not too bothered about this with loot being so low in value and/or chance to drop and have felt better about having my playtime more limited for this game. I can see interest in this feature in a better implemented game though.
Need solo queue be a necessity simply because one has out level endgame content? Let's say the queue is broadened to an adjustable size. Would not the scenario for such a mechanic like the one I described where difficulty scale with average item level and reward scale with group size on top of item level (eg. 3 or more a different tier) be better? Then any group size can be in for a challenge and rewards scale against said challenge.
What I don't get is when the reason is for challenge, if we are to make a suggestion, why would the ideal scenario be a solo queue due to increasing character progression against stagnant difficulty (and why would not having to share loot be of such importance)? That solves nothing in the long run as the content still would not increase against character progression and said content will only go from soloable to swatting flies eventually..
I can understand if the intention is to add the queue for fun, but if it's unrewarding (and underlevel from endgame), it's only fun so many times. (I don't expect many level 60s have gone back and soloed lower level leveling dungeons more than once.) However, if the intention is for challenge, then why not be far sighted and do it right, like suggest something else that can benefit an adjustable queue, and be challenging and rewarding at the same time. I'm just saying the perspectives can be many, we may see a better way when we set aside more personal or loot driven intentions.
Well any kind of scaling difficulty is something I wouldn't expect them to do well. Rewards being rewarding isn't something I see either since they've been in decline since mod 1 started and yet requirements for BiS have gone up. I don't see why an adjustable queue would take that much work, they already have it for normal dungeons pretty much.
Seeing balance in both PvE and PvP I'm just unconvinced they can do what you want right. I'm not against it though. It would just be convenient for custom groups no matter the content.
Let me be clear here.My main point what other games do or do not have,dose not matter here.This is Neverwinter,made by D&D fans for D&D fans,based off D&D lore.Deal with what is or find a game that can make you happy.
I never said it was an answer to it, just that it could be an additional option. You're entitled to your opinion either way, it's not something I'd argue that heavily for.
As for the scaling, the old content wasn't really scaled that well tbh. Karrundax and CN had insane amount of adds, tos had a boss a lot harder than the rest of the dungeon with so much healing when there was no debuff boon, dread vault was much harder than what it was worth, some t1s were harder than t2s and a lot of people resorted to exploiting until they had the gear that allowed them to not worry so much when they eventually fixed some of the issues. Nonetheless it was still a better time than now and if they can recreate that along with the rewards, then it can only be a good thing. However it looks like they're changing so much that I think they're changing more than what they can actually handle. Designing a single difficulty would be easier than further scaling options and I anticipate people aren't going to be happy anyway, but we'll see.
The OP wants to run the epic versions solo... using the actual door is the non-epic version.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums