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New regeneration mechanics
nitron0va
Member Posts: 18 Arc User
In game, when a player is entering a new map, the loading screen would sometimes show some game tips that are supposed to be helpful for the player. One of the game tips that came into mind is this:
"WANT TO REGENERATE YOUR HP? USE POTIONS! THEY ARE THE BEST WAY TO REGENERATE HP WHEN OUT OF COMBAT.
Now with the new regeneration mechanics (which will only function during out of combat situations), i honestly do not think that regeneration would serve any purpose, outside PVP scenarios - even then its a bit iffy because 95% of the time pvp players are always in combat (this new mechanic will only force players to hide while slowly regenerating HP - reducing the dynamic features of PVP which is constant combat). In PVE, as soon as the player is out of combat, he or she will just use HP pots to quickly regenerate health. See the problem i posed?
Can someone please enlighten me on why the decision was made to change the regeneration mechanics? What was the thought behind this?
Alot of players has been maintaining at least a 10% regeneration tick on their equipment. (Equipment that they had invested on). This change will affect alot of builds and will eventually catapult a new era of gear building (im not against this notion and i think that keeping the player base guessing on every mod is fun and will keep the players on their toes) however, some careful planning should be applied and some consideration on the investment of the players on the gears that they had acquired in their time of playing in Neverwinter.
If the new regeneration mechanic is 100% going to be implemented on Mod 6. Then a friendly explanation on why would be greatly appreciated.
"WANT TO REGENERATE YOUR HP? USE POTIONS! THEY ARE THE BEST WAY TO REGENERATE HP WHEN OUT OF COMBAT.
Now with the new regeneration mechanics (which will only function during out of combat situations), i honestly do not think that regeneration would serve any purpose, outside PVP scenarios - even then its a bit iffy because 95% of the time pvp players are always in combat (this new mechanic will only force players to hide while slowly regenerating HP - reducing the dynamic features of PVP which is constant combat). In PVE, as soon as the player is out of combat, he or she will just use HP pots to quickly regenerate health. See the problem i posed?
Can someone please enlighten me on why the decision was made to change the regeneration mechanics? What was the thought behind this?
Alot of players has been maintaining at least a 10% regeneration tick on their equipment. (Equipment that they had invested on). This change will affect alot of builds and will eventually catapult a new era of gear building (im not against this notion and i think that keeping the player base guessing on every mod is fun and will keep the players on their toes) however, some careful planning should be applied and some consideration on the investment of the players on the gears that they had acquired in their time of playing in Neverwinter.
If the new regeneration mechanic is 100% going to be implemented on Mod 6. Then a friendly explanation on why would be greatly appreciated.
Post edited by nitron0va on
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Now, granted, I am not in favor of the complete removal of any combat functionality for regen, though - I think that they could simply take the current value, have it provide 1/3 of that while in-combat, and have it provide 3x that when out of combat...
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So, first they decided to nerf the life steal (which is very understandable) and then make regeneration as optional. Yes, you no longer get that tick while in the combat anymore, but it's something that you "might" want to have between combats? maybe they wanted this regeneration to be "the last thing I get"?.. if you know what I mean. But anyways! I see they making some huge changes to the game, I can kinda see where they going with this, and can't wait to test it in mod 6.
I honestly think that's completely useless. It should be 50-100% at 2000 or new softcap of level 70. A tank with double the life of others only gets 15% more when a cleric heals them?
Currently you dont need a healer for any of the content and they want to change the gameplay to a more traditional style. Tank, healer, CC and dps.
Its a major course correction for the game and IMO way overboard.
Regen is useless and LS is so small a chance its completely unreliable. You will NEED a healer now to do anything really. Even running your dailies youll be sucking down potions if you dont have some type of heal.
At 60 1400LS is about 10% as soon as you ding 61 it drops to about 3% and by 70 its 1.something%. Quick math says you will need about 11k LS to have a 10% chance to LS at 70. In other words cryptic is effectively removing LS from the end game.
if this is what they want i will fully suport them
but i would like some sort of heal for grinding dailys and geniral quests
I dunno where the Devs are steering this "Dungeon and Dragons" inspired game. But, hey, they call the shots so, I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
Cryptic is obviously stuck on killing LS/regen to make healers an integral part of the game. They could have left LS exactly the way it was and with how severe the cuts are it would have been just fine. Even stacking 6k LS at lvl70 (which is crazy high) would only give you about a 5% chance to LS.
They could solve the SW situation by giving them a flat base chance to LS like 10%.
IMO, regen and LS works fine right now. I dunno why change it. Was there a massive burst of QQ against regen and LS?
The ironic thing, is that currently most GWFs get murdered by the eSoT boss, but there are some DCs that can tank him. Guess who's the one getting the nerfs to survivability....
... I guess I'm going to need to find a new game to play.
Yeah i second that sadly. v.v i havent had a chance to test preview all that much.
but dailies are so easy...
The reason why is that a character with enough ls and regen is completely 100% immortal right now except to something that can one shot them. So the only way at the moment to make content difficult is things like the eSoT bosses attack that can one shot most players if they don't avoid that. Since most players don't like one shots, this is bad for their ability to build new content. At level 60 the changes made no difference, now the stat curves feel off to me still like they went a bit overboard, so assuming that is adjusted a little bit so that an endgame player can get somewhere around 5-10% ls, I think things will be in a good place.
You have a nice idea there. Giving a regen cap and LS cap would be better than totally thrashing the whole mechanic.
Agree completely. A *much* more elegant solution would be to take the current lifesteal and regen mechanic and apply multipliers to them based on whether you are in combat or out-of-combat: < 1 for in-combat, > 1 for out-of-combat.
Regarding lifesteal: the original argument that it shouldn't be reliable because magic items aren't reliable is bogus. You can apply that argument to *any* stat boost that comes from equipment; either do it for all or do it for none. Anything else makes it arbitrary by definition.
Regarding regen: as has been stated ad nauseam, we don't need out-of-combat regen anywhere near as much as we need it in-combat. Healing potions drop like candy: we never want for them and since there is no ICD on potions out-of-combat, chugging them is a non-issue. Turning regen into an incoming healing boost simply makes it *not* regen anymore, and makes the already existing incoming healing bonus redundant.
The answer is not to destroy LS and regen, but merely to adjust the amount of benefit they give you. Further, the present course of action on mod 6 for these two stats drastically shifts the game away from being solo-friendly (not to mention breaks a ton of mechanics, including companions, feats, and equipment). In that vein, the devs and designers, are, I predict, going to have to make a hard choice: should the game be solo-friendly or not? D&D, that is, PnP D&D, is *not* solo-friendly. It never has. Making NWO solo-friendly necessarily deviates from the D&D paradigm to some degree.
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What the devs have done is attempted to make both kinds of classes (or builds if you desire) more dependent upon healing. It is true that with the power creep of artifacts, artifact gear, armor reinforcement kits, jewels, and such that maximumly statted dps classes do not need healers in the present version of Neverwinter. They can select just life steal and complete almost any dungeon solo. I know this by fact because I have watched a player do CN, eLoL and eSoT without any help from the party.
What is not true is that the class that utilizes regeneration with maximum stats is 100% immune to damage and can survive without the need of a healer. How many guardian fighters do you know that will solo the whole of CN, eLoL, and eSoT because they have 15% regen and 15% lifesteal. The damage mitigation, regardless of the build, is not sufficient to sustain the player with or without regeneration, and the damage output by the class is not sufficient to provide self-healing through life steal. There is no case where a GF can stand in the red of attacks without having to move and kite and counter, or use class features and dailies that provide immunity. In some cases (eSoT), a healer will not help with the one-shot effect of the boss. GFs are already reliant upon healing sources for survivability within Neverwinter. Is it the case that with lots of regen and life steal that a GF can be in a party with 4 other dps players and survive long enough for mobs and bosses so that the dpsers burn down the enemies and the GF can regenerate both in and out of combat without a DC (or OP)? Yes, it can. But this means the GF is reliant upon the dps of the other 4 members. I believe it is this scenario that the devs are attempting to undo and require a tank, healing source, and 3 dpsers in every party. I am for this in parties. However, I will be significantly weaker as a tank in solo PvE. But, even though my regen is getting nerfed to oblivion (yes, I am losing 15% incombat regen), I did not find the mobs in the new content so difficult as to prevent me from completing quests in solo PvE if I desired. Now of course, I would love for my incombat self-healing to remain. But, I at least understand that the devs are tipping their hat at attempting to prop up the three legs of the MMO Trinity. Both dps and tank must be weakened for the healer to be necessary. But, as an already weak class (the GF), and with a replacement class that can do both (OP), I fear more for the possibility that my role as tank is lost. Moreover, it could be that the GF is too weak with the nerfed regen to be wanted at high end level 70 dungeons, because his party buffs/mob debuffs and weakened survivability make him fall from usage. The community will naturally drift to this play style if warranted. I know the results of this, as a GF, when, with mod 2, I could not get into any party except FH to run in a circle at final boss.
So, I am all for making each kind of role inextricably linked (even if I have to sacrifice some solo PvE ability). But, I fear the changes will push out the GF in the role of tank completely, and parties of 4 dpsers and 1 healer will return.
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And I don't think you'll need healers to do solo content. At least that's not my impression on preview right now.
If they are effectively removing these two stats from the game, and making it less solo-friendly, I see that as crippling their financial viability for this game. People will be FAR less inclined to casually try the game out, buy Packs and whatnot, if they make a character and cannot complete basic content on their own to get a feel for the game. The game's community is already PUG-averse as it stands. Introducing mechanics to enforce grouping will not make that aversion to joining PUGs any better, and will result in players growing frustrated and leaving for other games rather quickly.
I have to admit I am curious what they plan to do with companion and gear stats that will have LS or Regen on them. As it stands, those stats are effectively being removed from the game completely.
heres a few posts about regen i made a month ago, and since im lazy ill just repost the posts i made http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?818361-PvP-Regeneration-Did-devs-made-a-mistake-designing-it-%28Piercing-vs-Regen%29
the stat changes and more hp should help against piercing damage
Though I'm quoting this comment, my response is directed generally:
If I understand things correctly these changes affect levels 61-70. Therefore Companions, etc. are fine through the "leveling process" up to level 60 at least. As for revenue generation: statistical fact is that more new players will buy stuff than long-time players - things are shiny and new and the vanity/convenience/speed-things-up process affect new players more than older players. Hence Zen Market items and other 'cash-based' items are geared toward newer players.
This meaning to say that levels 61-70 is designed for advanced or "hard-core" type players. Those players will spend the money anyway if they were ever going to in the beginning. People who tend to presume these kind of late-game changes are a detriment revenue-wise are often going with a hunch and hardly fact.
The thing is this: if by end-game levels you haven't spent any money on the game then chances are you wouldn't spend any now, no matter what they do.
And in either case, I do believe these changes to Regeneration and Life Steal occur at level 61, which is when the new power curve kicks in. If I am mistaken in this then someone who has tested it at lower-than-level-60 please do chime in.
I completely agree. Anyone at or near level cap has already spent what they are going to. My concern is for new players to the game. New players who join, and find that the game has been re-tuned to a throwback to the Bad Old Days of Everquest, with enforced grouping for normal content, unless you are playing one or two specific classes. People sitting in Neverdeath, spamming the LFG channel just so they can complete regular content. Those people will get frustrated and leave. No money coming in, player numbers steadily dropping. Free-to-Play games cater to the casual crowd by and large. The gamer with a few hours to kill and a low budget to kill some time on the weekends or at night after work. Forcing those players to have to take a fair portion of that time spamming the LFG channel just to play the game will be time not well spent for them, and they will leave. The gamers that do have the time for sitting around waiting for a group will grow frustrated with the inability to log in and go play the content. They will drift away as well.
In short, the removal of stats that make the game more casual-friendly, and enforce a group dynamic as the default, will result in frustration and a loss of players, which results in loss of revenue. If the content in question were also being rebalanced to take the stat removal into account (which it does not appear that is the case), that would be different. That would simply be a matter of adjusting play style. Requiring a tank *and* a healer for the majority of PvE content is not.
Start depending on healers and tanks.
We'll have 2 dedicated tanks(3 if you include sent GWF) and 2 dedicated healers(3 if we include temp SW), its high time these classes and specs stop being neglected, if players mindset is too stuck on the current 5 DPS groups, then devs need to give tanks and healers some help to make them desirable and what better way it would be then making DPS not being all-in-one classes that can tank, damage and self heal in the same build?
These two changes alone are going to FUNDAMENTALLY change the way the game works and is played as a whole. Meaning the game you play BEFORE module 6 is NOT going to be the game you play AFTER module 6. It is a HUGE gamble (financially) on the part of cryptic and PWE. One that I, personally, feel they are going to loose on. Badly.
Basically this takes soloing away from SOME classes, and lets other classes still do it. Also, this is a HUGE step in the direction of "cookie cutter" MMOs; i.e. they are trying to make Neverwinter be like every other fantasy MMO out there.
Frankly, I LIKED the fact that Neverwinter was different from other MMOs. I LIKED the fact that ALL of the classes were viable in a multitude of situations. I LIKED the fact that the game could be enjoyed heavily while soloing. ALL of that is going to be taken away in one swoop with these changes.
This is going to FORCE grouping in many if not all situations, especially at end game. Personally, I like having a CHOICE whether or not I group. I.E. If I am in the mood to kick around with other people, I do so. If not, I don't have to but I can still make progress in the game by myself (even if it does take me longer and is more challenging). All of that is about to be taken away.
Why? Have there been MASSIVE complaints about the way these two mechanics work now?
All I can say to the devs about this change is please, PLEASE, don't do this. This change alone could cause massive account loss and potentially bankrupt the game. Why? Because people don't like it when the game they have been playing, paying, and working on for over a year is suddenly NOT that game anymore. That is what this change is: a complete game changer; and not a good one.
Again devs, please do NOT do this. Leave Regen and LS alone; or if you absolutely MUST, slightly reduce their effectiveness. DO NOT effectively remove them from play.
Thank you for your attention.
Utopia much?
Neverwinter is so far from that. Even with statchanges. Did you even test the new stuff comprehensively? You hear about people running the new T2 with live stats in 15 minutes?
put in your ideas and thought right here, the Manager for devellopement wil collect it afterwards, address your name and email account so we can discuss later on.
i am not angry about nerfing lifesteal or regeneration, especially when i think about some TR builds based on deflection and regeneration, 3 ppl shoot at and can´t do nothing but dieing in a row
these builds are more than anoying in pvp, its cheap since you don´t get lifesteal from a target that is invisible and reflects everything nor it is very funny seeing these player heal up in 5 seconds by regenerating, just waste of time for other players
so what will happen?
lots of paladins and clerics will rule the matches in pvp until we get more healing depression to stop making them undefeatable like faithful DC atm? thats my forecast for PV
PVE i don´t know and don´t mind until we get hard encounters who really force me to decide about respeccing my char for PVE