3) ALL piercing damage needs to be re-coded to INSTEAD of "ignoring all DR" it should "attack with 100% armor penetration" - What this does is allows mechanics like Tenacity to still come into play which is DESPERATELY needed. It also fixed coding errors for feats that make you immune to damage for a short time. This would affect: Shocking Execution, Shadowy Opportunity, Shadow of Demise as well as piercing blades (HR feat).
I think this won't work, i believe 'damage immunity' such as steel defense etc. is just 100% damage resistance. Since arpen is the anti- dmg resistance it would result in the same effect. A possible solution would be to, let the 'piercing damage' skills hit for 150-200% damage, instead. That way, the immunity skills would function properly, i.e. block (semi dmg immunity) steel defense, etc. and piercing damage would still hit hard, but could be mitigated.
When a 7k gearscore player queues up, NO MATCHMAKING would suffice that. In this case, you are facing a premade. I don't think solo queues should ever face premades.
And yes, its really funny to see how matchmaking is producing results. In a lot of matches could easily pin-point some team changes to make the matches even.
All the ELO problems you refer to come back to one major misconception: The system is too casual, because the devs wanted to avoid long queue times at all cost. If you'd only be matched up against even competition, you'd never lose rating on a win and you'd never meet a premade. The ranked queue should be a solo one anyway, but that's another topic.
Yes, the queue times would go up, but at least we'd have a competitive system in place. There have been hints here and there that the queue mechanics might change even before Mod 6, and I severly hope they do.
Fun stuff. I seem to recall PvP players whining and complaining for a leaver penalty to be implemented. So it was despite many correctly stating it would do more harm then good.
Now that it happened there is whining about having to wait imbalanced matches out? Excuse me while I lol. This was the pill that was wanted. Now swallow it and enjoy waiting at the campfires.
The leaver penalty has helped a bit. I notice people are more inclined to try instead of just leaving after the first team wipe.
It has done more good than harm. The complaints you eagelry want people to swallow are way less than the ones that flooded the forums before the leaver penalty.:)
What does suck is that if the entire other team leaves, the winning team can't leave w/o penalty and are stuck there unless 2 ppl on their team leave too.
The leaver penalty has helped a bit. I notice people are more inclined to try instead of just leaving after the first team wipe.
It has done more good than harm. The complaints you eagelry want people to swallow are way less than the ones that flooded the forums before the leaver penalty.:)
What does suck is that if the entire other team leaves, the winning team can't leave w/o penalty and are stuck there unless 2 ppl on their team leave too.
Yes. The leaver penalty certainly did more good than harm. There are still problems, but that doesn't mean the leaver penalty wasn't a step in the right direction.
I think this won't work, i believe 'damage immunity' such as steel defense etc. is just 100% damage resistance. Since arpen is the anti- dmg resistance it would result in the same effect. A possible solution would be to, let the 'piercing damage' skills hit for 150-200% damage, instead. That way, the immunity skills would function properly, i.e. block (semi dmg immunity) steel defense, etc. and piercing damage would still hit hard, but could be mitigated.
I dont think thats how its coded, even if it were coded that way, it would still be FAR better doing the 100% ARP than buffing damage further.
Why I dont think its 100% DR is because then ARP would already mitigate it down. So im pretty sure its adding an extra line of code there.
Tenacity is damage resistance, arpen is anti dmg resistance minus the critical severity defense, man...
At least we both agree that piercing damage as it currently is, is too game breaking.
Cheers.
Armor pen does not mitigate tenacity even if you have zero DR but 25% tenacity youll mitigate 25%.
Crush posted the formula before.
Current piercicng damage is bypassing the entire formula. Giving an attack 100% arp just brings your DR to 0% but that attack would still get mitigated by tenacity and tenacity's crit reduction multiplicatively.
That means if you crit someone for 10k and attavked with 100% armor pen (bringing DR to 0% - since it cant go negative) on someone with 25% tenacity. That attack would deal (1000*.75*.75)= 562 damage.
So JUST making it respect tenacity would reduce its damage about 44% on a crit.
Did you even watch the video? There were only two guys from the same guild.
Doesn't matter. There is a high end PVP community where the guilds mix and often form cross-guild parties. 5 20k+ toons on the same team is not coincidence.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
The reason the matchmaking doesn't work is because so few people are actually queuing for PvP. The system is working with what is has.
Matchmaking does not work because it is poorly designed. Being designed for a larger playerbase than what we have (or had when it was designed) is poor design. I am not buying this excuse anymore. They made this game, they need to do a competent job of designing a matchmaking system that actually DOES WORK with what it has.
Matchmaking does not work because it is poorly designed. Being designed for a larger playerbase than what we have (or had when it was designed) is poor design. I am not buying this excuse anymore. They made this game, they need to do a competent job of designing a matchmaking system that actually DOES WORK with what it has.
That's the problem. No system will work with the small number of players we have, without massive wait time that will cause that small number of players to riot. There is no solution, when there aren't enough people to place together for a competitive match there aren't enough people. No sorting system can make your computer chase you across the room to log in and queue for pvp. (at least not yet, queue terminator music)
That's the problem. No system will work with the small number of players we have, without massive wait time that will cause that small number of players to riot. There is no solution, when there aren't enough people to place together for a competitive match there aren't enough people. No sorting system can make your computer chase you across the room to log in and queue for pvp. (at least not yet, queue terminator music)
There are solutions and they should have been implemented during the early days of power creep.
PVP is a vicious circle.
You PVP through to 59, and enjoy it. Bam, then you hit 60 and your 8k toon is suddenly faced with a 14k GWF/GF Tenes freak. #rekt
You PVP through to 59, and start getting frustrated because a level 35 is using weapons that allow him to hit you with a Perfect Vorpal and rank 8 Azures/Radiants. Then you get to 60 and your 8k toon is turned into pulp by an 18k GWF that is roaring at you non-stop.
You no longer PVP through to 59 because you know you will be battered by a level 25 with purple jewellery, perfects and rank 10s. You apprehensively enter level 60 PVP and your 8k toon comes across a 22k+ Oros-man that one-shots you.
The past 5 Mods have driven people away from all levels of PVP because gaps get wider and wider and nothing has been done to stop this. The game has bled itself dry of PVPers. What are you thinking allowing Ancient Mulhorand weapons, a 3-piece jewellery set and epic enchants into low-level PVP? Bracketing at the first sign of significant power creep and putting level-limits on certain enchantments should've been introduced 2-3 mods ago.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
That's the problem. No system will work with the small number of players we have, without massive wait time that will cause that small number of players to riot. There is no solution, when there aren't enough people to place together for a competitive match there aren't enough people. No sorting system can make your computer chase you across the room to log in and queue for pvp. (at least not yet, queue terminator music)
Ok if this were not such a great game we would not take so much time talking about it. They made a great game with limited resources. They (the devs and cryptic in general) are educated, creative, and experienced artists and managers. They can create a good matchmaking system even given a small player base.
One way (off the top of my head, one of many ways) would be leveling the playing field. Make the most powerful characters in a match a little less powerful and make the least powerful players in a match a little more powerful. This can be done in many many ways and you can see that tenacity and healing depression were steps in this direction which ultimately just did not fully work.
Another way would be a different kind of pvp where the less powerful team has more players than the more powerful team. There needs to be a reliable and uniform scale of character power. So lets just say "character power as a generic placeholder name for whatever this scale would be called. Lets say it ranges from rank one to ten. You que as a rank 10 and if the system can't match you against other 10's it places you against two ranks 5's, three rank 3's, or five rank 2's.
That's the problem. No system will work with the small number of players we have, without massive wait time that will cause that small number of players to riot. There is no solution, when there aren't enough people to place together for a competitive match there aren't enough people. No sorting system can make your computer chase you across the room to log in and queue for pvp. (at least not yet, queue terminator music)
I don't understand this point.
Is it really better to join PvP after a minute and end up 9 times out of 10, either waiting 10 minutes in spawn cause it happens what you see in the video, or doing nothing cause the enemy team has no chance and just sits in spawn?
As much as you may hate waiting, wouldn't you prefer to wait even 20 minutes but end up with a balanced and fun match, and do some PvE in the meanwhile? Like solo PvE or foundries, for example?
What about starting with forced solo queue in PvP? People want to premade? For? There is not enough people to have "casual" premade vs premade.
At least force players to solo queue for the time being, so that teams do not end up as in the video above. I have experienced what the video shows most of the time.
Give players forced solo queue, let them have balanced games and you'll see the PvP population growing up.
Then introduce a Premade vs premade queue.
People may want to join with 3 friends, or with a group of 2. Sorry, it's not possible now and i'd rather sacrifice for a while the chance to "premade with friends" to guarantee balanced matches. Also, what good is it if you go PvP with friends and you end up doing nothing the whole time cause all the games or almost all the games are greatly unbalanced?
I'd say to start with forced solo queue so that PvP system can really balance teams and make a mix of high GS and low GS instead of the premade vs low pug seen in the video (which actually happens quite often).
Guys I created this topic but I don't even think the Devs would want to improve PvP dynamics for this game. Topics like these created so many times and we traveled no distance. Community Mods trying to defend the devs on every topic instead of trying to understand the players and communicating with devs. I mean we are complaining about the current system because it has flaws, can't they see it? It is a good feedback for them for a chance of bettering the game. Look at the upcoming module. Higher level cap and more work to refine stuff. I mean the game is forcing the players to do grinding 24/7 why? Let me tell you why because the harder it is to grind the more money the devs make. There is a chance people would use Zen store meanwhile. PvP isn't making money so there isn't any change and improvements. I used to love this game. But this game started to improve like Knight Online mentality. Instead of focusing on bettering the game dynamics, main focus became getting better gear and better stuff and grinding them and this and that over and over. Well game is loosing it's fun and at this rate it won't be long till the players start quitting for other options. I mean there wasn't any pvp implementations since Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale pvp isn't really working either. The game does not offer people good variations of pvp or team pvp. No 1 on 1 duel system, no castle war (or variations), nothing good relating to PvP. I mean what good is it to have the best gear if the game has a sucky PvP system? Where will you put that better gear to test? Will you use to finish the dungeons faster that you allready done like million times. I really don't see a point now. Such a shame that the devs don't really see what players want here and focusing on more and more grinding.
Any adjustment in the matchmaking will result in queues being as long as the matches are -
so you want a 40 min balanced match? get a 40 min que.
Right now the matches like that last 10-20mins and the queue pops within about 70% of that time (on average; inb4 no one reads). Just because there's leniency in matching.
Meaningful adjustment will have a side-effects:
longer matches = smaller % of population to queue with you at any given point in time = longer que going from 70% of match time to 100% (remember longer match lenght?) -> yeah 40 min queue
Then, if all that happens smoothly, you'll have to live through the growing pains of the PvP population increasing for months (and who knows if that will happen - there's so many games with better PvP, why bother here?). Besides, there's whole issue of class/power balance that needs to be addressed before anyone new will want to PvP (why should I wait forever for a dumb PvP queue to pop where one class either: doesn't die, kills everyone, or both).
Yeah, you don't have the patience for that.
It's too much work for no return (PvPers complain no matter what).
Is it really better to join PvP after a minute and end up 9 times out of 10, either waiting 10 minutes in spawn cause it happens what you see in the video, or doing nothing cause the enemy team has no chance and just sits in spawn?
As much as you may hate waiting, wouldn't you prefer to wait even 20 minutes but end up with a balanced and fun match, and do some PvE in the meanwhile? Like solo PvE or foundries, for example?
What about starting with forced solo queue in PvP? People want to premade? For? There is not enough people to have "casual" premade vs premade.
At least force players to solo queue for the time being, so that teams do not end up as in the video above. I have experienced what the video shows most of the time.
Give players forced solo queue, let them have balanced games and you'll see the PvP population growing up.
Then introduce a Premade vs premade queue.
People may want to join with 3 friends, or with a group of 2. Sorry, it's not possible now and i'd rather sacrifice for a while the chance to "premade with friends" to guarantee balanced matches. Also, what good is it if you go PvP with friends and you end up doing nothing the whole time cause all the games or almost all the games are greatly unbalanced?
I'd say to start with forced solo queue so that PvP system can really balance teams and make a mix of high GS and low GS instead of the premade vs low pug seen in the video (which actually happens quite often).
I think a solution is scheduled tournaments. There would be x amount of teams, x amount of games and x amount of slots for players. You sign up the day before and if all the open slots are taken you sign up as an alt. There would be a light, medium and heavy weight tourney occurring at the same time (going by, say, gs). That would eliminate the gs disparity issue. Starting a tourney match with gs higher than the bracket you signed up for would result in your disqualification and a ban from tourneys for the week. An alt would take your place. The whole problem is not just a small pvp population but the fact it is so casual everyone comes on when they feel like it and it is scattered. A scheduled tourney, the entire pvp population would be on at the same time and there would be more than enough players to work with. There would be tournament winners and runners up that could be listed in place of the leaderboard. The leaderboard could be done away with as a result, eliminating all the tom-foolery that goes on with it.
And to be fair.. this isnt fun for the 5 guys on the other side with 23-24k gs. It isnt challenging and its not a good match.
Yap had a plenty on my HR earlier in mod 4. System matchers people by some ranking i assume plus it tries to make full rainbow team. result is that my team has 2 HRs 22k GS and 1 CW > 20 at least. against in best case 14k people
It won't matter. It'll be the same if the matchmaking(!) is still the same. GS or something else, without coming up with a solution to their so called "matchmaking" everything will be the same.
Artifacts have too much of an impact on Daily availability. There are a few Dailies from a certain class that benefit too much from it.
Healing pots dilute the potential of classes with healing capability as those classes had already sacrificed defense and dps for that ability to self-heal - self healing classes aren't designed with strong defense and dps generally. We do not want PvP to be a tournament to determine who has the most pots or who runs out of pots the fastest.
That was definitely a premade. Just because people aren't in the same guild doesn't mean they won't play together. It's not uncommon for me to run pre-formed groups without any repeating guild titles simply because so many of my friends are in different guilds.
However making it never happen is not exactly possible. As people said there's a low population and the system is working with what it has. Eventually that premade is going o need a match and if a balanced one can't be found in a reasonable length of time it's going to at least give them a match to play in.
Thing is dude... PvP runs are MOSTLY LIEK THIS: 9 out of 10 runs are premades VS noobs... Prove me wrong "ehh ehh LOL" if you can even... im a premade player too... ehh ehh LOL
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited February 2015
just today start to play arena after long time. and what i see? play about 6 matches and none of them was a bit easy, although i have 2 20k gs toons. i barely has equally geared player in my team. 2 matches we win tight match, others we were more or less roflstomped. were they really mostly premade what i was fighting together with pugs? i expect some match will be easy win for me, but none of them was .....
PVP is almost dead cause of over geared pre-made players stomping on solo Q, low geared players.
And developers can't do anything about it.
I would suggest
- disabling party join
- disable the free AD from daily pvp.
what makes me more sad is the veteran gamers who already know matchmaking is borken/doesn't exist and yet, they do a party join.
well these guys either want to make players rage or show to game developers how bad the matchmaking is.
Comments
I think this won't work, i believe 'damage immunity' such as steel defense etc. is just 100% damage resistance. Since arpen is the anti- dmg resistance it would result in the same effect. A possible solution would be to, let the 'piercing damage' skills hit for 150-200% damage, instead. That way, the immunity skills would function properly, i.e. block (semi dmg immunity) steel defense, etc. and piercing damage would still hit hard, but could be mitigated.
And yes, its really funny to see how matchmaking is producing results. In a lot of matches could easily pin-point some team changes to make the matches even.
All the ELO problems you refer to come back to one major misconception: The system is too casual, because the devs wanted to avoid long queue times at all cost. If you'd only be matched up against even competition, you'd never lose rating on a win and you'd never meet a premade. The ranked queue should be a solo one anyway, but that's another topic.
Yes, the queue times would go up, but at least we'd have a competitive system in place. There have been hints here and there that the queue mechanics might change even before Mod 6, and I severly hope they do.
The leaver penalty has helped a bit. I notice people are more inclined to try instead of just leaving after the first team wipe.
It has done more good than harm. The complaints you eagelry want people to swallow are way less than the ones that flooded the forums before the leaver penalty.:)
What does suck is that if the entire other team leaves, the winning team can't leave w/o penalty and are stuck there unless 2 ppl on their team leave too.
Yes. The leaver penalty certainly did more good than harm. There are still problems, but that doesn't mean the leaver penalty wasn't a step in the right direction.
I dont think thats how its coded, even if it were coded that way, it would still be FAR better doing the 100% ARP than buffing damage further.
Why I dont think its 100% DR is because then ARP would already mitigate it down. So im pretty sure its adding an extra line of code there.
Again, this makes tenacity/deflect factor in.
Tenacity is damage resistance, arpen is anti dmg resistance minus the critical severity defense, man...
At least we both agree that piercing damage as it currently is, is too game breaking.
Cheers.
Armor pen does not mitigate tenacity even if you have zero DR but 25% tenacity youll mitigate 25%.
Crush posted the formula before.
Current piercicng damage is bypassing the entire formula. Giving an attack 100% arp just brings your DR to 0% but that attack would still get mitigated by tenacity and tenacity's crit reduction multiplicatively.
That means if you crit someone for 10k and attavked with 100% armor pen (bringing DR to 0% - since it cant go negative) on someone with 25% tenacity. That attack would deal (1000*.75*.75)= 562 damage.
So JUST making it respect tenacity would reduce its damage about 44% on a crit.
Doesn't matter. There is a high end PVP community where the guilds mix and often form cross-guild parties. 5 20k+ toons on the same team is not coincidence.
Matchmaking does not work because it is poorly designed. Being designed for a larger playerbase than what we have (or had when it was designed) is poor design. I am not buying this excuse anymore. They made this game, they need to do a competent job of designing a matchmaking system that actually DOES WORK with what it has.
That's the problem. No system will work with the small number of players we have, without massive wait time that will cause that small number of players to riot. There is no solution, when there aren't enough people to place together for a competitive match there aren't enough people. No sorting system can make your computer chase you across the room to log in and queue for pvp. (at least not yet, queue terminator music)
There are solutions and they should have been implemented during the early days of power creep.
PVP is a vicious circle.
You PVP through to 59, and enjoy it. Bam, then you hit 60 and your 8k toon is suddenly faced with a 14k GWF/GF Tenes freak. #rekt
You PVP through to 59, and start getting frustrated because a level 35 is using weapons that allow him to hit you with a Perfect Vorpal and rank 8 Azures/Radiants. Then you get to 60 and your 8k toon is turned into pulp by an 18k GWF that is roaring at you non-stop.
You no longer PVP through to 59 because you know you will be battered by a level 25 with purple jewellery, perfects and rank 10s. You apprehensively enter level 60 PVP and your 8k toon comes across a 22k+ Oros-man that one-shots you.
The past 5 Mods have driven people away from all levels of PVP because gaps get wider and wider and nothing has been done to stop this. The game has bled itself dry of PVPers. What are you thinking allowing Ancient Mulhorand weapons, a 3-piece jewellery set and epic enchants into low-level PVP? Bracketing at the first sign of significant power creep and putting level-limits on certain enchantments should've been introduced 2-3 mods ago.
Ok if this were not such a great game we would not take so much time talking about it. They made a great game with limited resources. They (the devs and cryptic in general) are educated, creative, and experienced artists and managers. They can create a good matchmaking system even given a small player base.
One way (off the top of my head, one of many ways) would be leveling the playing field. Make the most powerful characters in a match a little less powerful and make the least powerful players in a match a little more powerful. This can be done in many many ways and you can see that tenacity and healing depression were steps in this direction which ultimately just did not fully work.
Another way would be a different kind of pvp where the less powerful team has more players than the more powerful team. There needs to be a reliable and uniform scale of character power. So lets just say "character power as a generic placeholder name for whatever this scale would be called. Lets say it ranges from rank one to ten. You que as a rank 10 and if the system can't match you against other 10's it places you against two ranks 5's, three rank 3's, or five rank 2's.
There are lots of ways to do this.
I don't understand this point.
Is it really better to join PvP after a minute and end up 9 times out of 10, either waiting 10 minutes in spawn cause it happens what you see in the video, or doing nothing cause the enemy team has no chance and just sits in spawn?
As much as you may hate waiting, wouldn't you prefer to wait even 20 minutes but end up with a balanced and fun match, and do some PvE in the meanwhile? Like solo PvE or foundries, for example?
What about starting with forced solo queue in PvP? People want to premade? For? There is not enough people to have "casual" premade vs premade.
At least force players to solo queue for the time being, so that teams do not end up as in the video above. I have experienced what the video shows most of the time.
Give players forced solo queue, let them have balanced games and you'll see the PvP population growing up.
Then introduce a Premade vs premade queue.
People may want to join with 3 friends, or with a group of 2. Sorry, it's not possible now and i'd rather sacrifice for a while the chance to "premade with friends" to guarantee balanced matches. Also, what good is it if you go PvP with friends and you end up doing nothing the whole time cause all the games or almost all the games are greatly unbalanced?
I'd say to start with forced solo queue so that PvP system can really balance teams and make a mix of high GS and low GS instead of the premade vs low pug seen in the video (which actually happens quite often).
so you want a 40 min balanced match? get a 40 min que.
Right now the matches like that last 10-20mins and the queue pops within about 70% of that time (on average; inb4 no one reads). Just because there's leniency in matching.
Meaningful adjustment will have a side-effects:
longer matches = smaller % of population to queue with you at any given point in time = longer que going from 70% of match time to 100% (remember longer match lenght?) -> yeah 40 min queue
Then, if all that happens smoothly, you'll have to live through the growing pains of the PvP population increasing for months (and who knows if that will happen - there's so many games with better PvP, why bother here?). Besides, there's whole issue of class/power balance that needs to be addressed before anyone new will want to PvP (why should I wait forever for a dumb PvP queue to pop where one class either: doesn't die, kills everyone, or both).
Yeah, you don't have the patience for that.
It's too much work for no return (PvPers complain no matter what).
I think a solution is scheduled tournaments. There would be x amount of teams, x amount of games and x amount of slots for players. You sign up the day before and if all the open slots are taken you sign up as an alt. There would be a light, medium and heavy weight tourney occurring at the same time (going by, say, gs). That would eliminate the gs disparity issue. Starting a tourney match with gs higher than the bracket you signed up for would result in your disqualification and a ban from tourneys for the week. An alt would take your place. The whole problem is not just a small pvp population but the fact it is so casual everyone comes on when they feel like it and it is scattered. A scheduled tourney, the entire pvp population would be on at the same time and there would be more than enough players to work with. There would be tournament winners and runners up that could be listed in place of the leaderboard. The leaderboard could be done away with as a result, eliminating all the tom-foolery that goes on with it.
Yap had a plenty on my HR earlier in mod 4. System matchers people by some ranking i assume plus it tries to make full rainbow team. result is that my team has 2 HRs 22k GS and 1 CW > 20 at least. against in best case 14k people
Artifacts should be allowed. Battle potions should be allowed.
Healing pots dilute the potential of classes with healing capability as those classes had already sacrificed defense and dps for that ability to self-heal - self healing classes aren't designed with strong defense and dps generally. We do not want PvP to be a tournament to determine who has the most pots or who runs out of pots the fastest.
Thing is dude... PvP runs are MOSTLY LIEK THIS: 9 out of 10 runs are premades VS noobs... Prove me wrong "ehh ehh LOL" if you can even... im a premade player too... ehh ehh LOL
And developers can't do anything about it.
I would suggest
- disabling party join
- disable the free AD from daily pvp.
what makes me more sad is the veteran gamers who already know matchmaking is borken/doesn't exist and yet, they do a party join.
well these guys either want to make players rage or show to game developers how bad the matchmaking is.