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Auto Balance Feature in PVP
doriangreigh
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 707 Arc User
I have made mention of this in threads so i'm going to make my own thread specifically for this.
Has this ever been tried? Where even if a premade group queues and a pvp match pops ... if the premade pulls a group of low GS people then the auto balance feature kicks in and re-assigns some of the players so that each side has a roughly same average GS in it?
I know some premades might not like this idea but surely there are some that would and might even like the fact they face off against a fellow guild member or something.
Has this ever been tried? Where even if a premade group queues and a pvp match pops ... if the premade pulls a group of low GS people then the auto balance feature kicks in and re-assigns some of the players so that each side has a roughly same average GS in it?
I know some premades might not like this idea but surely there are some that would and might even like the fact they face off against a fellow guild member or something.
Post edited by doriangreigh on
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that would not be a premade "pre" "made"
Ive done this multiple times, forgot I logged out swapping gear around. Logged in, Qued and then mid game realized oh shoot, and swapped gear over to my real gear.
GS cannot be what determines the que. The only OTHER way they can accomplish this would be to have a "high water mark" at whatever is the MAXIMUM GS you have achieved. The problem there is buffs come into play and I have seen crazy high PVE GS numbers fully potted and with many buffs on that boost stats like Power. So you could get like 28-30k GS pretty easily. Which would skew PVP numbers.
The problem is now that any type of system them put in place WILL fail. Why? Because PVP is not balanced at all, which has killed the population.
So how do they fix it?
FIRST) Remove ELO matchmaking and bring us back to the PRE-ELO pvp gameplay.
SECOND) Just like with any game, they actually need to release PVP CONTENT to draw people back to PVP. The ideal here would be FOUNDRY pvp since players can make their own content.
THIRD) RE-introduce matchmaking but it needs to be changed. I think the best thing to do would be to base it on some sort of win % AND games played. This seems to be the only way to really make it fair. So here is how I think each player should be ranked:
All of this would be invisible, but change how players are ranked.
First it takes your WIN percentage. Lets take two players.
Player A:
63 Wins
6 Losses
69 TOTAL games
91.3% Win
Player B:
678 Wins
64 Losses
742 TOTAL games
91.3% Win as well.
So how do these players stack up? Well clearly there is a difference here in games played. Player A has MUCH less than Player B and as such, shouldnt be ranked higher than Player B. So we need some variable that accomplishes TWO objectives:
1) Ranks player B higher than A
2) Allows A to win more games to be ranked higher than B WITHOUT having to have as many games as B, that would just be a "who plays more" ranking.
For this, we would use a value of 1- (Player A Total / Player B total). This gives us a value of ".907" So we actually ADD this number to player Bs win %. So his win % compared to Player A is now 91.3+.90 = 92.2% (none of this shows on the boards, this would only be how each person is ranked)
So THIS value is what would be measured against player Bs win %.
So what does player A need to do to outrank player B?
- Increase total game count AND increase win %.
Lets say player A won his next 20 games.
Player A:
83 Wins
6 Losses
89 TOTAL games
93.2% Win
Player B:
678 Wins
64 Losses
742 TOTAL games
91.3% Win.
Now make the adjustment to Player B:
.88(differential in total games) + 91.3 = 92.18% so Player A would now outrank player B.
So player B gets a boost to his win % when COMPARED to player A.
Now why is this important? Well, now you can take players RANKS on the leaderboards and divide them into 3 tiers.
Tier 1: top 33%
Tier 2: Middle 33%
Tier 3: Bottom 34%.
Now when it searches for possible matches it ONLY stacks you with people in your own tier.
What this means is a player from tier 1 gets matched with another from tier 1, meaning someones win % is going up, and someones is going down, effecting the leaderboard rankings.
This is the ONLY way to make it fair and balanced without dramatically increasing que times.
Just make the highest bracket 20k+ and remove pots/elixirs which give flat stats from pvp
The only issue with this is then you end up with players who are like 17k that use pots in like PVE and are buffed over 20k. Or for instance things like 500 power from stamina being removed, or things like During Tiamat you get buffs to things or armor sets that buff stats.
All of this could easily bump a 17k GS player over 20k then he is mis-matched with a 23k GS player. There is a big difference between 17k and 23k.
Thats my only concern there but I guess overall it would be MUCH more balanced doing that system then what they have now.
Te match starts. System monitoring scores. Team A (score "A"), Team B (score "B"). The system teleports all players to spawn and scramble teams based on scoreboard of the specific match, if it detects a team score difference of 200+.
So let's say it's
A1
A2
B1
A3
B2
A4
A5
B3
B4
B5
It could move for example players B3 and B4 to team A, and players A1 and A2 to team B (just examples).
Then the match continues. Now team B is a bit stronger and can try to get back the 200 points of difference in a more even match. If the scores get even, then the system performs a last scramble, this time to perfectly balance the two teams using the match score of each player.
So you have games divided in 3 parts: first part, it's determined if the teams are balanced or not.
Second part, scrable to make second team fight back and even the score.
Third part is the final rush: teams get the "final balance" to be equally strong, and battle to win.
Now, this way it's more fair and you don't need to worry about quitters cause basically each players get the exact same chance to win the match.
Balance performed during the match, and not using gear score or leaderboard, is imho the way to go. You don't have a huge PvP population in this game so it should not create problems.
If the PvP population increases, then the ELO system wouls start to work fine and you can go with that.
Also separating 5v5 premades from pug matches.
If a team of 2-3 friends half-premade is winning and they get separated by scramble system the well, take it as a funny way to fight each others and hope for a balanced match next time.
[ sum( GS of players you killed ) / sum( GS of players that killed you ) ] X [ number of wins / (number of losses + number of quits) ]
It's fairer as it takes a "snapshot" of GS only at the point of death of either player or enemy. Players who swap gears and proceed to gain huge kill counts/wins will meet other players who are doing the same.
After a much heated discussion they decided to ban premade and you could only sign up solo and the increase in pvp population was enormous. Elite pvper is a very small population whith a HUGE impact on the total experiance of casual players enter a pvp domination.
First of all the casual players get destroyed and blown to bits worse is that most elite pvp guilds are to say the least made up by people that thrive on others missery for their own agenda of feeling mighty. This result in them rezz camping the other team(often with the exuse of finishing the match faster whish is pure b*s*) insulting them in chat and calling them down for 1-1 and then gank them and laugh at them.
They also makes alot of the casual players very hesistant to enter pvp again and rather do some other daily because if you play a game for fun who needs that shi*t.
After a while they added a special queu for premade vs premade where peeps could settle who was the best among the elitist.
There are several things that other games have to make pvp a better experiance and i cant see the how it would be so hard for NW to learn from that.
Different maps like capture the flagg dominaton with 12 on each side death matches (hard with current tr though) but veriation does make it more fun.
When it comes to gear I think that everybody that zones into a pvp game gets a minimum of stats so if their gs is to low it will raise it to a set value, many games has this and it makes the matches much more even.
Separate pvp armor much more then just tenacity with resist toward cc and damage compared to pve armor is also a solution I seen in same games whish seem to work just fine.
But as long as cryptic dont make a real effort to improve pvp I think we will continue to see this nerf-next class op-nerf trend. That they took 8 month to solve roar and that they made tr what it are today says they are more or less clueless about what they are doing and puts very little effort into making pvp a nice experiance for most players.
PS
Watch stream with the devs talking and play both pve and pvp - it actually scares me a bit to think that they are the ones deciding about game balance and game mechanics.....
Hello ayroux,
i tryed to think of many system to make PVP much more balanced. But none realy accurate unless you stop some things.
here the first problem, with your system( i proposed something near around 6 month ago but i get back from it). the first problem is you stack your classment by doing many match. mean you get a better classment by doing match and not by beeing better. it especially problematic when the lvl player change for exemple due to a nerf or buff.
the second point there, is it the actual cheat system with kick or leave won't goes wit it.
the third point is pre made and classment. classment is individual but it's a team play. AN awesome team with average player but real good coordination will face practicaly most case.
the first thing to do is to work on how the classment is made
the second thing to do is stop pre made team enter or having a special classment of team in an other classment (here is the team that is ranked and not individual player)
How to make the classment it have to be an exchange point. And you win or lose an amount of point dépending of your rank inside the team and the available point in the fight depend of the average lvl + a bonus or malus depending of your team result and the team value difference. Also once it start your point are on balance and are counted when ever you leave in the middle of the match or not
What is "classment" is that "ranking" or "skill". That word does not translate well.
Yes I initially thought a "PVP level" system would work best in this game. The problem with that is there is not enough population now to do that.
This is why they need to attract players to PVP first, then they can implement something better.
This wouldn't be an issue if they introduced that multi-queue ranked/unranked system we've been asking for.
That's not the idea of a premade. The idea of a premade is to be five 25k+ all-orange guys and roflstomp PUG after PUG. When you premade, it's not to refine your pvp skill, it's to farm. Farm the glory, farm the leaderboard. Where did you ever see a post by a premader asking for balanced sessions?
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
I think that is the major reason to why pvp became so much more popular in aoc once the banned premade from entering exept in special queue.
Premade in this game is done for the sole reason to win and crush pugs not to face other premades.
First, Mod 6 comes out and the leaderboards reset.
Second, ALL players are now "ranked" with an "ELO" of 0-100. Anytime you win a game, you get +1 to your rank, anytime you lose a game you get -1 to you rank with a minimum of 0.
So a player wins 10 games, he is "ELO" or "Rank" 10. The leaderboard FIRST matches everyone's "rank" and puts them in order. If there is a tie, the player with the better win % gets ranked higher.
This way players who are new, will obviously be low ranked and it will take a while to get higher ranked.
Now for matchmaking, ALL it needs to do is find players who have the closest "rank" to you. This means that whenever someone whose "rank" or "ELO" is valued at 80, will NEVER see someone who is say 40.
Well what about players who win then lose then win then lose? They wont move on their ELO at all.
This not only solves matchmaking, it solves the "de-rank" by losing and also solves the issue of the leaderboards being explotied and all the other HAMSTER. Just keep it VERY simple. Win = +1 Lose = -1
You will ONLY ever see players who are similar in ELO anyways so it wont matter about the "accuracy" of that ELO.
Also the fact that the "tiebreaker" compares WIN % also is a huge factor.
This would be the MOST ideal.
classment is ranking, your classment by a point system will end like that to be your average lvl. mean it include your good and bad days, and also include your equipment lvl and skill but also the class your are playing if somehow one class is weaker or stronger.
Let me explain how it work in table tennis (edit you don't need to have a big pvp population to do that. In canada it done with 3k player).
The 5 first match you don't have a quote. player's that play against you won't get any malus point if they loose to you. Once you've done your five match, you receive your point depending of your result.
After that your quote change with any match and your point win or loose depend of the difference between your quote and your opponent quote.
How to implement it in a five vs five player match. dépending of your quote you are expeted to end in a rank in the match so dépending of your result inside the match if you get a better rank than supposed you get more point. if it the opposite you can eventually loose some point. (a formula here is the only thing require).
Where it is top, well simply because 1 you only need to take quote in case to measure and balance team. Also it take in consideration much more the player lvl than is rank (ex: between being rank 1000 and 3000 you may end with the same gap of lvl as a rank 500 and rank 1000). Also the good thing with that is player that leave a match will be bad ranked in the match and loose more point than those who stay and they will end with point loose.
With that matchmatching will be way easer and quicker to do
And of course no premade their to not false classment
And for those who would end at top and stop match to not loose point, it simple you need a t least to do match around a period time (exemple 2 week) else you are considered as inactive and no more in the board appear in the board but if you replay match you restard at same quote lvl