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Shadow of Demise
fernandosb
Member Posts: 78 Arc User
Shadow of Demise is bugged again and proccing twice. Please take your time to take a look at this because it is causing severe imbalance in pvp.
Post edited by fernandosb on
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My report on 12-07-2014.
At this point Sabotuer is seriously the LEAST annoying tree.
One of the many Control Wizards that misses Shard Of The Endless Avalanche. RIP Shard (Beta-Mod3)
This effect can not stack.
There is nothing of intended there.
It s bug and quite gamebreaking
May be you have two enemy TR? I never seen my exe TR proc twice.
http://s7.postimg.org/pc48p6jmj/shadow_of_demise_bug.jpg
Except it deals 100% bonus piercing damage currently.
because it's double proccing on dot enchants, which is a bug. a gamebreaking one.
did you read "this effect can not stack" part?
I was able to stack it 5 times with GPF using Duelist's Flurry. I think it stacks when a few hits strike in the same time.
yea your right it is supposed to ignore damage resistance. though the fact remains it not supposed to double/triple proc nor stack. I should have remembered that from once having had it myself though I recently traded it in on my tr in favor of concussive.
http://s15.postimg.org/lgza7zy57/shadow_closeup.jpg
Original attack: 10000
Damage after mitigation: 8000
Shadow of Demise damage: 4000
Damage after mitigation if deflected on a non-TR with no elixirs: 4000
Shadow of Demise damage if original attack is deflected on a non-TR with no elixirs: 2000
...which is a 50% damage bonus, so there's nothing wrong with that apart from possibly too much of a damage bonus, in which case you could modify the 50% part. That number would be lower on classes with more DR, and if it is deflected. Let's say on a GF with 40% DR, 20% tenacity, and the TR has 24% arp (let's ignore Exposed Weakness for now):
Original damage: 10000
Damage after mitigation: 10000 * (1 - 0.4 + 0.24) * (1 - 0.2) = 6720
Shadow of Demise damage: 3360
Damage after mitigation if deflected with no elixirs: 3360
Shadow of Demise damage if deflected with no elixirs: 1680
The thing here is that if you make Shadow of Demise affected by DR, deflect and tenacity, you're making it be affected by those stats twice. The devs stated that piercing damage was created to avoid that issue. The problem with mod 4 HR's piercing damage was that the formula for PB's damage was taking the original damage instead of the damage after mitigation, which was resolved in the mod 5 patch. The only problematic skill synergy with Shadow of Demise (besides the multiprocs) is Shocking Execution, which doesn't respect DR, deflect or tenacity, and hence the SoD damage isn't affected by that either, but that's a problem with SE, not with SoD.
Shadow of Demise by itself, when it is WAI, is perfectly fine. It's when you put it together with the DOT bug (which occurs on several different mechanics, i.e. HR's Careful Attack etc.) and it procs multiple times, that it becomes an issue. The real issue here is the multiprocs, not the mechanic itself.
I honestly don't think the issue will get resolved any time soon tbh, because it's a complex issue with server timers and asynchronous event handling and clashes. It's also a bug shared by HR's Careful Attack, amongst other things. I hope I'm wrong though.
Also the main problematic piercing damage in the game is Shadowy Opportunity, because it's not a % damage boost, it's a flat amount of damage being added, which doesn't respect the damage of the attack that proc'd it. For example, if you get hit with a 200 damage deflected Cloud of Steel, Shadowy Opportunity will still do 2k damage. Same goes for hitting with a 20k Gloaming Cut; you only get a 2k damage bonus. Shadowy Opportunity's damage should be changed to a similar mechanic to HR's Piercing Blade/TR's Shadow of Demise, i.e. you do an additional 20% damage of your attacks during stealth as piercing damage.
One thing, though. It still blows my mind as to why they didn't just say "your attacks deal an extra x% of damage" instead of creating piercing damage...
You can deflect LB , take 8k dmg and still take 8k dmg from SoD, thats with only 1 stack of SoD.
Also Guardian Fighters can block the whole dmg befor SoD proccs and take maybe 3k dmg, SoD itself will still procc for 50% of the unblocked dmg.
So even when the GF blocks everything ( flurry, bb...)during those 6sec while SoD builds up, he will still take like 22k dmg from SoD if he DOESNT block the procc.
GF can block piercing damage.
The problem with this type of mechanic is with classes like GWF whose entire defensive tools were built so that AFTER taking damage they gain boosted DR.
What happens right now is a TR lashing blade crits you (100% crit chance) for 30k, then the GWF pops unstoppable with about 10k HP left. Well NOW he has increased DR but it makes no difference since as soon as SoD procs he dies.
Also you have other issues like "immunity" feats that piercing damage completely mitigates. When listening to the logic of "it is already affected by DR" it DOES make sense, but in all practicality when you REALLY break it all down, it doesnt - not in this game.
If the DEVs were superb at balance and coding, you COULD follow that train of thought, but then you wouldnt have 30k+ lashing crits, You wouldnt have 100% crit in stealth and you wouldnt have GPF type enchants proccing this 2x. Also you wouldnt make THIS feat basically completely nullify a class mechanic.
It would be NEARLY the same as saying "Whenever a GWF Sprints they can see a TR in stealth" - that doesnt QUITE fit but you know what I mean.
There also are classes that can get defensive buffs like running INTO a DC astral shield that wont help mitigate this, or barkshield, or the 4pc purified, or that thayan bastion(sp?) boon etc. ALL of those types of things become worthless now with SoD.
Also, things like SE and other forms of piercing damage make you able to ignore armor pen, with 100% crit in stealth you can ignore crit chance as well.....
Honestly the SIMPLE solution to balance ALL the classes at this current moment would be to simply take ALL the forms of damage that bypass DR, and just make that normal damage.
This would only really affect TRs/HRs.
TRs would have their piercing damage reduced which would help higher DR classes a little more. This (in turn) makes it harder for a TR to kill an HR if they HR kept their piercing damage, but since that would be gone TOO, it would actually balance everything out fairly well.
There are MANY other things wrong with PVP - even double SoD proc, but I think changing all piercing damage to just regular damage would actually do a VERY good job towards balance.
Yes they can block piercing dmg but SoD ignores the fact that you blocked all the dmg while it was building up, so in the end SoD should only procc for 50% of the BLOCKED dmg and it proccs for 50% of the dmg that you would have done if the GF wouldnt have blocked during those 6sec.
Example:
SoD should work like this:
Gf blocks 15k dmg -> he takes 3k dmg (guard is 80% i guess)-> SoD proccs for 1500dmg
How SoD is working atm:
Gf blocks 15k dmg -> he takes 3kdmg -> SoD proccs for 7500dmg(50% from 15k)
Aye, that be true. Even the Grim Reaper is an Executioner nowadays.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
That's a problem with Lashing Blade not with Shadow of Demise.
Look, you can either have SOD be piercing damage, and be calculated off the damage after mitigation, or you can have SOD as normal damage, and be calculated off the damage before mitigation. Which would you prefer? The latter is the potentially more damage as it means you're not taking dodged attacks into account, i.e. if you dodged a 30k LB, you still get 15k SOD damage (before mitigation).
You can't make SOD affected by DR/deflect/tenacity as it is right now without changing the base calculations, because otherwise you make it affected x2 by DR/deflect/tenacity. While the solution where SOD is normal damage and calculated off pre-mitigation damage might be better for GWFs, for nearly every other class they're screwed if they don't dodge SOD, and it can be quite difficult in the heat of the battle, especially when you have so many other things to watch for.
Let me put it this way for you. With a 30k LB, Shadow of Demise will do 50% more damage for the TR. My point is, it's the same as taking 30k + 15k damage immediately, hence 45k in one hit, or taking 30k damage immediately, then 15k after 6 seconds. They're both the same thing realistically.
The problem is not with the mechanic, it's with the base damage of skills such as LB and SE, and if you really want to go this far, you can say that the 50% damage increase is too much. The solution to that would be to halve the damage increase for SOD in PvP, not change the mechanic.
Also again, the issue with LB + SOD is the original damage coming from LB, not SOD itself.
(this is all assuming SOD isn't multiprocing - which is an issue atm)
Well that deflect issue is a bug then, same with the GF guard one, probably similar to HR piercing blade in mod 4. I haven't done any real extensive testing with SOD atm, just a few basic tests. I'll probably go do that tonight.
Yes and I agree to this. Like I said, IF the DEVs were superb at balance AND coding then the mechanic would work just fine. The REAL issue with SoD is they are not good at either.
As you mentioned "must be a bug then" for GF guard, also the multiproc issue clearly not WAI. Those are TWO obvious issues.
Then when you look at the damage LB+SOD does, as you said its the "same" well that means you have a guaranteed 45k+ Crit with LB. Thats more than enough to 1 shot most classes.
Its not uncommon to have LB hit my GWF - who has about 55% DR unbuffed out of unstoppable AND 25% tenacity. The "Base" LB will show a crit for somewhere in the 60k+ range with about 30kish AFTER DR. Its WAY too high.
So MY solution, instead of having to recode all these broken issues, instead of having to find the sweet spot with balance, if ALL they did was change all piercing damage (or attacks that ignore DR) the game would actually BE balanced and you wouldnt have to worry about re-coding anything.
As you simplified this so will I: THIS solution is the SAME as them 'nerfing' the damage of SoD down to ~ 35% instead of 50% AND fixing the coding issues.
My solution tho, takes MUCH less involvement from DEVs (since we ALL know they arent going to fix double procs or coding anytime soon) I mean they took a YEAR to fix ARP not working on CWs.
So rather than asking for a "balance" and them to fix coding issues, I am merely saying the values would work out alright removing it as piercing.
Same goes for SE which can crit for 30k+ on a full HP target. Thats FAR too much. Same goes for Shadowy Opporunity - this HITS targets for 2.5k PLUS your normal hit.
Want to deal 10k? Throw
If you fixed ALL these issues:
1) LB would still crit for 30k+ But then SoD would try and proc for 15k, but then get mitigated down to like 7k. Thats much more reasonable.
2) Shadowy Opp - hits for 2.5k on its proc. DR that down and it would be like 1700 dmg. Much more reasonable.
3) SE - Normally crits for 30k+ would be netted down to about 15-20k.
4) Combat HRs would then wreck TRs so nerfing their Piercing blade to respect DR would need to be added as well.
This still wont fix the double proc issue on SoD however THIS would bring things MUCH closer to balance - instead of them nerfing base values.
The other issue I would like addressed as well is the fact that TRs can ignore ARP and crit.
So I think the change for Crit should be that Stealth DOUBLES your crit chance. Meaning if you only have 30% crit, stealthing gives you 60%. This means it really benefits TRs that stack crit more.
50% = 100% crit chance (so same as it is today).
I also think something like "Exposed Weakness" would do something like:
- Whenever entering stealth you attack with an additional 50% OF your armor penetration.
So that means if you have 25% ARP, you gain an additional 12.5%. If you have 30% you gain an extra 15%. it would be a small nerf there as well that would help bring damage values back down to proper ragne.
So just a follow-up here is this is different, but not. Shadow is still double procing it seems, but looking at the combat log it's resistable now whereas the other day when I posted the above it wasn't. I'm trying to wrap my head around this, but not getting it. Any ideas?
http://s2.postimg.org/7n87azwux/different_but_not.jpg