Dex vs STR (belt)

ortzhy

We've picked all our companions, armor sets and jewels and we now want to pick our belt.

Many are saying that Dex is the pick, while others are for Str so what is the best for u?


Let's start with the base formulas, we'll simplify them in a bit:

Base damage :

Base Damage = C1* (1+(STAT-10)/100)* ((1+WD*0.00846)* (0.9+rank/10)* (1+power*0.00006))


From my tests i;ve noticed that Disciple of Strength gets applied twice to strengh and as an overall multiplier,i did test it (using Intimidation since it has a fix dmg) for various lvls of Disciple of Strength and STR and this seems to fit:

(1+[(STAT-10)/100)*(1+DoS)])*(1+DoS) (still waiting for confirmations, the guide used as ref is using only the global multiplier and so they did drop it in future graphs)*

Now since CA is always up for a GWF and since it behaves differently for crits and noncrits we have:

CA damage calculation for non crit hits:

Total damage when CA is granted = base damage * (1+ 0.15) * (1+ CHA bonus%) * (1+ CAbonus %) * (1+ blink dog %) * (1+ intellect devourer%)

CA damage calculation for critical hits:

Total damage with CA and CRIT = base damage * (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus) * (1+blink dog %) * (1+ intellect devourer %)


So now if we are only wanting to pick the belt our formulas will become:

Base Damage= C*(1+[(STAT-10)/100)*(1+DoS)]) where C =C1*(1+DoS)*((1+WD*0.00846)* (0.9+rank/10)* (1+power*0.00006)) is a constant since the items are picked, and the power granted by both belts is the same

Total damage when CA is granted = base damage * (1+ 0.15) * (1+ CHA bonus%) * (1+ CAbonus %)

Total damage with CA and CRIT = base damage * (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus)

Now lets get an example to work with:

GWF example:

Dex Belt:

crit rating: 61.5
Str: 24 with 1.06 bonus from feats
Crit severity: 167%
CHA: 12
CAbonus:8

for him a normal hit will have a multiplier of: C*(1+0.14*1.06)*(1+0.15)*(1+0.02)*(1+0.08)= C*1.454839

For a crit hit: C*(1+0.14*1.06)*(1+1.67+0.15+0.02+0.08)=C*3.353328

An average hit for him will have a multiplier: C*[(0.615*3.353328)+(0.385*1.454839)]=C*2.6224


STR Belt:

GWF will lose 4.6% crit chance and gain 4 STR

A normal hit will have a multiplier of: C*(1+0.18*1.06)*(1+0.15)*(1+0.02)*(1+0.08)= C*1.508553

A crit hit: C*(1+0.18*1.06)*(1+1.67+0.15+0.02+0.08)=C*3.477136

An average hit will have a multiplier: C*[(0.569*3.477136)+(0.431*1.508553)]=C*2.6286


For full buffs:

Wild storm Elixir +300 Crit strike, +10% crit severity for 3600 s, persists through death
Major Flask of Potency +225 Crit strike, recovery and power, +7.5% severity for 1800 s
Squash Soup +3% crit chance, +5% crit severity for 1800s
elixir of fate: +1 to all
potion of heroism: 1 to all
camp buff: 1 to all

Dex belt

crit rating: 68.4
crit severity: 189.5
str: 27
charisma: 15


A normal hit will have a multiplier of: C*(1+0.17*1.06)*(1+0.15)*(1+0.05)*(1+0.08)= C*1.539098


A crit hit: C*(1.1802)*(1+1.895+0.15+0.05+0.08)=C*3.747135


An average hit for him will have a multiplier: C*[(0.684*3.747135)+(0.316*1.539098)]=C*3.045

STR belt:

GWF will lose 4.5% crit chance and gain 4 STR

A normal hit will have a multiplier of: C*(1+0.21*1.06)*(1+0.15)*(1+0.05)*(1+0.08)= C*1.594392

A crit hit: C*(1.226)*(3.175)=C*3.881755

An average hit for him will have a multiplier: C*[(0.639*3.881755)+(0.361*1.59439)]=C*3.056


reference used:

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3dqpvhuavj
http://laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac%E2%80%99s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/


*for any errors pls let me know
*numbers used are only for example and any who is interested should replace them with their own
*did this only cause, unlike armor set, are very expensive to lvl...

b3llist0r

---

--- > Simple but it works: LINK (google drive) <---

---

I did the same math and calculated the DPS+ (percentual increase of the multiplier) for several steps. Big difference in point of view. Some guys (I had to discuss a lot) will not understand that an increase from 70% to 71% is a plus of 1,43% and 20% to 21% equals +5% when comparing ways to increase commutative multipliers. Highest effect is, no suprise, the crit severity. The higher the crit chance the less your return on investment. Even with high end severity (perf vorpal, feats, erinye, all boons) the DPS+ will go down rapid especialy because in a real situation you have several buffs increasing your crit chance. As shown in your example.

I created a table for DPS+ based on STR stat, one for Power increase (increment 100 points) and one for the DPS+ resulting from the crit_chance/crit_severity. Similar can be found in Kaelac's guide as graphs. When I did testing around the CA-thing (crit/non-crit) and the strange behaviour (commutative only on non-crit) ... I stopped... most players in my guild dont care about some percent DPS because you can run every PVE-content with any build and the CA behaviour looked like a bug to mee... that ruined my fun factor^^. The Disciple of Strength ... WTF... but ATM there a several threads here discussing GWF math so I'm becoming interessted again^^.

For a perfect GWF build the DPS+ for each increase of any ressource (STR, DEX, CHA, power, crit, CA etc. ... and recovery which is impossible (assumptions needed) have to be balanced regarding DPS+ based on a proved formula. It is the only way to compare e.g. +300 power, +5% crit severity and STR+1.

What do I want to say? - I like it. Good work! :-)

EDIT: Have you verified your math with CAGI/DS Intimidation and do you exactly(!) get the numbers? I tried once and there were always a percent here and there I could not explain...

EDIT: Put the link up here...

//Bellistor

ortzhy

yeah it is pretty hard to take all variables into account. I do start with set data for all but one stat and work with that, if more stats would vary the result could be different tho i doubt for any build that DEX belt is superior, but that is a just a guess.

If we start talking about power vs crit/recovery rating things do get very interesting... cause for intimidation builds power does more than just the overall multiplier, in my logs intimidation does account for 54% overall dmg and encouters/daily for 80% and that could do better with more recovery for example. For destroyers is a bit easier.

Kaelac's guide is rly good but the crit chart is heavily influenced by CA and they didnt account for that so their findings are offset.

b3llist0r

Yes. The DPS+ for power in an Intimidation build has to be squared. ((old/new-1)*100%)^2 because it affects power bonus and base damage of the encounter and the increase in percent is identical for both.

The different calculations for crit/non-crit are a pain in the ***. It is very hard to evaluate any modification of DEX, crit, crit-severity and CA without a calculation most players will call "complex and not worth the s#%&/".

If the formulas are really proof, fail-save and tested someone could write a web-based tool where you enter your stats, mark the relevant modificators (which can not be represented by the values e.g. Devourer/Blink Dog/Disciple of Strength/Intimidation) very comfortable. The tool calculates the complete multiplier and any GWF player could check his setup and would see which incremental improvement will result in which DPS+. You increase your Power by 300, check the result then increase crit severity by 10% and after checking the result you chose to take the Erinye and not the Dragonborn Brawler..

The effect of recovery, several feats and boons make this a sisyphean task...

//Bellistor

ortzhy

b3llist0r wrote: »

EDIT: Have you verified your math with CAGI/DS Intimidation and do you exactly(!) get the numbers? I tried once and there were always a percent here and there I could not explain...

//Bellistor

yes the result are always in +- 10 dmg points (i get a result for example of 8215 instead of 8221) , but i;ve put that on the fact that i dont take the full number after decimal mark, there are many multipliers so such a small gap can be explain or that there are roundups of results but i dont know the exact calculation steps (the old formula is too far off the results to be complete). Anyway i did test for various power levels and different disciple of strength and that formula holds, but no dev confirmed it yet.

b3llist0r

Without exact calculation it is VERY difficult. Intuition fails.

Reduced:
Only CA -> Multiplier = (1+ 0.15) * (1+ CHA bonus%) * (1+ CAbonus %)
CA and CRIT -> Multiplier = (1+ 0.75 + sum of all crit severity bonuses + 0.15 + CHA bonus + CAbonus)

180% severity. No CA bonus. The difference of CHARISMA stat 11 and 10 in terms of DPS+ is:
for a non-crit: +1%
for a crit: +0,27%

So when you have 30% crit chance: 1%*0,7 + 0,27%*0,3 = 0,78% total DPS+
And with a crit chance of 60% we get: 1%*0,4 + 0,27%*0,6 = 0,56% total DPS+

This crazy "bugged" su%&§g behaviour is working "a bit" against a crit build.
The calculation in a simple/normal way (adding the crit and done) is a trap.

Who is willing to do this calculation all the time? No one. We can compare a setup to another but to evaluated a common decision like "power or crit" it is too much.

//Bellistor (having fun)

b3llist0r

ortzhy wrote: »

yes the result are always in +- 10 dmg points (i get a result for example of 8215 instead of 8221) , but i;ve put that on the fact that i dont take the full number after decimal mark, there are many multipliers so such a small gap can be explain (the old formula is too far off the results to be complete). Anyway i did test for various power levels and different disciple of strength and that formula holds, but no dev confirmed it yet.

That sounds good:p

ortzhy

well i have to admit i didnt do it till now, but i was curious about AoW vs DT and STR vs DEX belt so i had to take it out of my mind. I did discover tho that on my current build i do gain more from 220 crit than 220 power but it will no longer be the case for the next 1%crit.

Would i bother to change it for that small difference, i have to confess that i can live with how things are ) and i wont do that math for next increments unless i would have a tool that does it for me :P

b3llist0r

Simple but it works: LINK (google drive)

Everybody can use (or copy) it. The input fields are unprotected.

I will add the Recovery/At-will/Encounter/Intimidation stuff in the next days...

//Bellistor

ortzhy

b3llist0r wrote: »

Simple but it works: LINK (google drive)

Everybody can use (or copy) it. The input fields are unprotected.

I will add the Recovery/At-will/Encounter/Intimidation stuff in the next days...

//Bellistor

wow nice new toy, ty!!

edited: And i was wrong, pretty much all low crit rating builds can make a better use of dex belt.

ortzhy

for intimidation build we have to multiply (power*0.006) to our total. But Intimidation is only a part of our dmg, for me 54%.
So when i add power my dmg, my overall dmg, will increase by:

(NewTotal)/OldTotal)* [0.46+(Newpower/Oldpower)*0.54]

icyphish

I have tried both STR and DEX build, honestly speaking I can't tell too much difference between those two, but personally I feel at the current stat of PvP, its more of Maximum Burst Damage within a few second, and DEX build with more CRI seem to be more beneficial as it cris significantly more often, I have just swapped to Dex build a month ago and I gotta say I feel more comfortable with Dex.