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Tiamat GS

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  • thehumancodexthehumancodex Member Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    (Post Removed)
  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    And just a reminder.

    The DO DC's two main buff/debuff utilities, Divine Glow and Forgemaster's Flame, debuff Tiamat and buff the team by the exact same percentage regardless of the DC's gear score.

    The reason not to take a low-GS DC into Tiamat is due to survivability, not team utility.
  • group5egroup5e Member Posts: 294 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    two30 wrote: »
    The factors that affect team DPS the most (4-piece set bonuses, weapon enchants, powers and feats) don't affect Gear Score at all.

    Blaming low team-DPS on the lowest Gear Score is like blaming a basketball team's loss on the shortest player's height.

    This statement is partially incorrect. You are generalizing this to the nth degree and I strongly suspect that you are using the DC's T1 set as your main example. Also certain buffs don't stack.
  • unstablevikingunstableviking Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    GS in and of itself isn't alpha and omega, but it IS an indicator of skill. Presumably someone with 17k GS has spent time and effort to really LEARN their class. Lower GS characters have no such implicit guarantee. 12k can either be a highly skilled alternate character or a brand new lvl 60.

    GS is important. It's an extremely inaccurate skill barometer, but the best we have.

    I agree.... GS is deceiving. There are many "GLASS CANNONS" out there. I have seen MANY 18k to 20k GS CW's who hold 9 to 11k in power, but only around 1k in Defense, NO Deflect, very low HP's and very little regen. I will take a well balanced 14k over a glass cannon any day.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    My main toon is a non-DPS DC. DCs are ALWAYS wanted. More so once devs fix Tiamat's horrendous lag/graphics issues.

    As for minimum GS? 16k

    16k is easy to achieve, and gives a sense of progression to campaigns. Logically you should defeat easier opponents (Malabog/Valindra/Kessel/Losmouth) before tackling a goddess. ATM, any fresh lvl 60 can challenge Tiamat.
    I've been playing for over a year and don't have a single 16k GS toon (highest is around the 15k mark). And 13k is plenty enough to beat those other dungeons you list.

    Just sayin'...
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    GS in and of itself isn't alpha and omega, but it IS an indicator of skill. Presumably someone with 17k GS has spent time and effort to really LEARN their class.
    Or they've just opened their wallet and bought BiS gear. Or been carried through dungeons by friends/guildies. Or any one of a number of other skill-free ways to accumulate GS. Granted these are likely in a minority, but they DO exist and you come across them regularly.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Or they've just opened their wallet and bought BiS gear. Or been carried through dungeons by friends/guildies. Or any one of a number of other skill-free ways to accumulate GS. Granted these are likely in a minority, but they DO exist and you come across them regularly.

    It's not perfect but it's all we got. BTW my opinion on the req is that it should be 13k.
  • yokanaanyokanaan Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 151 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    You needed 10k gearscore to visit Icewind Dale and get your class artifact quest. We are 2 mods further and you wonder why we expect more from some people.
    Let's just say that it's simply impossible to go through Dread Ring, Icewind Dale and Sharandar which is pretty long without getting at least your first two artifacts and taking some time to learn basics. Should I worry about people who skip some content and rush to Tiamat with their green and blue loot?

    I don't think so.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    If you're 14k+ gs, that's plenty ignore the haters. If you're 10-12k gs, then gear yourself up first, seriously. Mod 2 has higher requirements. People shouldn't get carried so much upon reaching level 60 when they can't contribute a requirement amount.
    I agree.... GS is deceiving. There are many "GLASS CANNONS" out there. I have seen MANY 18k to 20k GS CW's who hold 9 to 11k in power, but only around 1k in Defense, NO Deflect, very low HP's and very little regen. I will take a well balanced 14k over a glass cannon any day.

    It's rare for CWs to have deflect, and someone posted that defence is easily less important than hp. 1k is on the low side, if they use hv, then it does mitigate that. If they have 30k+ hp that should be good enough. I'd take those glass cannons if I were you, they're doing most of the dps work.
  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    DPS is zero on the floor.
  • arbitrarityarbitrarity Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Tbh, given sufficient group debuffs and buffs, a party of 10ks could probably do Tiamat. If you assume the difference between the 10ks and 18ks is about 8k power, that's a 50% dps difference. Maybe another 11% for PVorpal. That's a fraction of what a single cleric can put out (HP+DG+Bear Your Sins + Condemning Gaze = 65% armor debuff, and HG+Divine DG+Empowered FF+Empowered BtS (I guess you need 2 clerics to keep both up) = 90% bonus DPS.

    GF brings ITF (37% bonus DPS for party), Tide of Iron (20% armor debuff), and Mark (8% armor debuff).

    Together, those more than triple DPS. Proper power selection and debuffing armors are substantially more important than any amount of power, and my suspicion is that groups that fail are lacking in buffs/debuffs much more than they lack in raw DPS.

    While we're at it, WR is another 21%, Sly Flourish is 5%, Greater Plague is 9%, P.Terror is 4%, HV is 30%, Swath of Destruction is 15%, RoE is... I forget off the top of my head, probably 15%, Bitter Cold is 5%, Controlled Momentum is 5%, Chaotic Fury is a massive 30%, Chaotic Nexus maximizes arpen and gives 30% crit chance, Commanding Shot is 15%, Crushing Pin is 10%, Inspiring Leader is another 5% (albeit only to party members), Dreadtheft on cursed target is 20%. There are a lot of buffs and debuffs available, and missing just a few can leave a party of 20k's hitting like 10k's.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Tbh, given sufficient group debuffs and buffs, a party of 10ks could probably do Tiamat. If you assume the difference between the 10ks and 18ks is about 8k power, that's a 50% dps difference Maybe another 11% for PVorpal. That's a fraction of what a single cleric can put out (HP+DG+Bear Your Sins + Condemning Gaze = 65% armor debuff, and HG+Divine DG+Empowered FF+Empowered BtS (I guess you need 2 clerics to keep both up) = 90% bonus DPS.

    GF brings ITF (37% bonus DPS for party), Tide of Iron (20% armor debuff), and Mark (8% armor debuff).

    Together, those more than triple DPS. Proper power selection and debuffing armors are substantially more important than any amount of power, and my suspicion is that groups that fail are lacking in buffs/debuffs much more than they lack in raw DPS.

    While we're at it, WR is another 21%, Sly Flourish is 5%, Greater Plague is 9%, P.Terror is 4%, HV is 30%, Swath of Destruction is 15%, RoE is... I forget off the top of my head, probably 15%, Bitter Cold is 5%, Controlled Momentum is 5%, Chaotic Fury is a massive 30%, Chaotic Nexus maximizes arpen and gives 30% crit chance, Commanding Shot is 15%, Crushing Pin is 10%, Inspiring Leader is another 5% (albeit only to party members), Dreadtheft on cursed target is 20%. There are a lot of buffs and debuffs available, and missing just a few can leave a party of 20k's hitting like 10k's.

    You pretty much are required to have debuffs ontop of decent gear. A 10k gs will have less weapon damage too which also makes a big difference. But really. Can you expect a 10k gs to debuff for the rest? The ones that know their class already have better than the very basic gear.
  • myowmyowmyowmyow Member Posts: 1,923 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I don't even run the Tiamat raid, mostly due to the garbage that is now known as this thread . . . :P
    SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! (repeat indefinitely)


    myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
    pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
    looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    HR can give Combat Advantage to a whole group and debuff via Thorn Ward
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • vallivvalliv Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    hmm.. basicly if I stripp all items of my character I should still be able to enter Tiamat, or pretty close to it at least...
    so all in all, I just don't see 10k being a reasonable GS.. so far I see most ppl agreeing on 13k being a reasonable ammount, not too low, and not too hard to achieve.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    I agree.... GS is deceiving.

    Argument does not hold. We (or at least most of us) are not talking about an 18k GS requirement. If you have 10k GS, it really doesn't matter if you are glasscannon or not.
  • lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Know what I wish I would see? I really think the tide of AFKing hurts as much, if not more, than low GS.

    Granted, a queue system might fix this matter, or a normal/epic version. But we're talking something that might require more work than the devs are able to put into it right now.

    But the AFKing and constant vitriol in zone/say....Complaining and moaning does 0 DPS, and Tiamat isn't just going to return to the Nine Hells pushed before a wave of untold groaning and griping. "Why should I...."

    ....because when you hit F to enter the temple, you signed up as part of a team, and there is no I in team. If you're going to sit there and complain the entire fight, you're not doing any better than the people are complaining about. And if those people are in the fight at least giving the best they can, then they are contributing more to the fight than the complainer. They might have to get back up several times, but as long as they're fighting, they're doing.
    ROLL TIDE ROLL

    Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?

    PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
  • forcemajureforcemajure Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I posted this somewhere nobody is ever going to look again. With apologies, posting it again because, well, I needed to vent....

    So, I see this "Show me the group of 10K GS that won Tiamat" argument a lot. Impossible to make that group, so it is an excellent rhetorical argument. What I don't get, though, is how this leads to arguments for a GS in the range I consider to require paying to play. I guess, maybe, there are some AD-wealthy people just because they have played this game forever. I consider that paying with your life and not your wallet. Time is money so same difference. For my playing budget, I've managed to get an SW into about the 14K GS range. That may not be the affordability wall, but it is getting close.

    Here's an odd thing I've noticed in Tiamat runs, though. This SW never finishes below #5 on the scoreboard. Now, I know that doesn't mean anything because nobody knows what the scoreboard means. Lots of high-GS players seem to dismiss it because they don't get a high score. So, it must be meaningless, right? Cause we all know GS is what matters, right?

    Here's the interestingly odd thing, though. Pretty consistently, I see that failed Tiamat runs are where my SW ends up on her personal low end (#5) while wins she is always #1 or #2. I am absolutely NOT suggesting this is because my character makes the difference between a win and a loss. Her score is about 100K points higher in a win - doing the exact same things! The point is that, in a win, the group is leveraging EVERYBODY!

    That is what has convinced me that the real challenge of Tiamat is one this community is losing. Every time I see talk about separating from "the scrubs" or about how a fail must be because there was some low GS in the instance, I read that as people making assumptions that are getting in the way of winning this challenge. The challenge is to be social and, on short notice, make something out of a hodge-podge collection. Perhaps forcing people not to switch instances will help, but somehow I doubt it.

    Yes, I would like to be able to play only with people I can count on. For me, that means people who are not going to go AFK or who are not going to declare the instance a fail and leave when the second phase will be at all challenging (but usually still winnable). Cryptic is not giving us that choice, though. So, now we have to continue trying to solve a social problem in a social game. We don't get the God Mode of social problems - excluding everyone not exactly like us - can we try to solve the challenge we do have, please?
  • arbitrarityarbitrarity Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 96 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Oh yeah, Thorn Ward is another 20%. CA is worth between 15-40%, depending on charisma and active bonuses.
  • rarefactionrarefaction Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    Clerics contribute to team DPS through buffing/debuffing. GF's also provide excellent team buffs and can do a great job of protecting clerics by drawing adds away. No one is saying non-DPS classes are not welcome.

    What you see as "snobbery" other people see as common sense. I have a 21k CW whom I nuke Tiamat with on a regular basis. I also have a 13k TR whom I have yet to take in to fight Tiamat because I KNOW that he can't carry his own weight yet. I'd be contributing to group failure not group success with him and I don't walk him in there with the expectation that everyone else should have to pick up my slack. There is some backlash because some folks do have an attitude of "ok, I showed up...now everyone else do the heavy lifting because I can't." It's more than a little obnoxious to see people in the "say" channel screaming out orders and then cursing out the group after a failed run when the person doing the screaming and cursing is a 12k GWF who finished 22nd.

    When I'm on my CW I don't leave instances and I don't demean others who have low GS. But I also know that if there are several 10k folks running around then odds of failure go up significantly.

    In the Tiamat fight you get three (sometimes four) two-minute windows to inflict around 16.4 million damage on five different heads (total of 82 million). If your group of 25 can't dish out significantly more than 13 million damage per minute the run will fail. It's that simple.

    You could actually bring your TR in unless you don't know that TR's dish out a ton of damage even at 9k gs. Yeah the gear score snobs do exist and I have a 14k dps cleric. I was told nobody has the right to be there unless they've completed Sharandar, Icewind Dale and Dread Ring.

    That person just came across as ignorant so I put the person on ignore. My cleric can out dps many in dungeons with over 16k gs. Your TR can too.

    People that claim someone's skill is based off of their gear score is an ignorant pay to win person. I am called pay to win on some of my character but I grinded to win. I have a HR with over 18k gs.

    PVE is more toxic than PVP.
  • forcemajureforcemajure Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    You are a new player so you don't know how much we earned farming Castle Never a year ago. Therefore every BIS player you see, you have to automatically assume it came from their credit card because you look at the PVE situation today and you scratch your head at how someone can get tens of millions of AD today to gear their toon up.

    You mis-read that and made my point. You say you are wealthy because you put a lot of time into the game and act like that is different from cash. There is a technology for changing time into cash - actually, the want ads are full of such technologies. It makes no difference to me how you can afford the ridiculous costs of refining gear up into the range where most of this game is 0 challenge. What I'm asking is why having done that is interfering with your facing a new kind of challenge.

    EDIT: I should not have used "you" in that response as I do not mean you personally. Rather, I mean to refer to a hypothetical person who is at 18-24K GS and thinks they won the game and is now being "cheated" of their reward. Sorry for that confusion.
  • rarefactionrarefaction Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    You are a new player so you don't know how much we earned farming Castle Never a year ago. Therefore every BIS player you see, you have to automatically assume it came from their credit card because you look at the PVE situation today and you scratch your head at how someone can get tens of millions of AD today to gear their toon up.

    I've seen reverse snobbery where someone will put you down for having good stuff like I bought my mount a year ago off the zen market so I am now pay to win and the person was being a jerk about that. After doing this tiamat stuff and trying to pug for dungeons again and being kicked out..it reminded me of why I started getting into pvp.

    PVE is even more toxic than pvp.
  • hefisdohefisdo Member Posts: 709 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    I'll ignore the GS conversation.

    If you take a build of a class that you know it's not wanted that much because that build focuses in an unneeded feature on PvE, that's you choosing and accepting that behavior of the other players. That's not preconception, that's just their opinion of what they need.

    I'm a Cleric and I know the healing trees aren't as effective as the damaging one in a high-end PvE where everyone has Lifesteal, but I won't just leave my class; I love Clerics, but I cannot enjoy the game knowing that I'm not having the best performance that I could have. If you want players that accept your choice of taking the healing trees for PvE, then you should go for the Tiamat fight with people that prioritize the fun gameplay, and not min-max results.

    Unfortunately you won't be able to do so until the devs implement a queue system to Tiamat, just like the min-maxing players won't be able to group themselves too, and that's not someone's fault.
    (´・ ω ・`)
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    You mis-read that and made my point. You say you are wealthy because you put a lot of time into the game and act like that is different from cash. There is a technology for changing time into cash - actually, the want ads are full of such technologies. It makes no difference to me how you can afford the ridiculous costs of refining gear up into the range where most of this game is 0 challenge. What I'm asking is why having done that is interfering with your facing a new kind of challenge.

    I was not referring to your argument. I was merely referring to the general stereotype that if you have BIS gear, you automatically used your credit card when I can safely say that there are also a lot of old players who have legit gotten dozens of millions of AD and have BIS toons.

    You alluded to that in your post and that is what I wanted to clarify on.
    I've seen reverse snobbery where someone will put you down for having good stuff like I bought my mount a year ago off the zen market so I am now pay to win and the person was being a jerk about that. After doing this tiamat stuff and trying to pug for dungeons again and being kicked out..it reminded me of why I started getting into pvp.

    PVE is even more toxic than pvp.

    Like I said, due to the current state of PVE being unfarmable, a lot of PVE players CANNOT imagine how some players get full legendaries and BIS. They do not know of Castle Never a year ago where you could farm it endlessly and get drops that sell for over a million AD consistently.

    Therefore, every BIS player they see, they always cry credit card.
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    You could actually bring your TR in unless you don't know that TR's dish out a ton of damage even at 9k gs. Yeah the gear score snobs do exist and I have a 14k dps cleric. I was told nobody has the right to be there unless they've completed Sharandar, Icewind Dale and Dread Ring.

    That person just came across as ignorant so I put the person on ignore. My cleric can out dps many in dungeons with over 16k gs. Your TR can too.

    People that claim someone's skill is based off of their gear score is an ignorant pay to win person. I am called pay to win on some of my character but I grinded to win. I have a HR with over 18k gs.

    PVE is more toxic than PVP.

    I probably could bring him in and do ok-ish. The problem is I haven't really gotten to know how to play him well since the Mod 5 changes. I'm not familiar enough with the build I have to use it well. There are TR's who can kick butt and take names, but I'm not one of them. And until I'm confident that I can contribute and won't be a burden I'm not going to venture into Tiamat's lair. That's just being respectful of other people's time. Failed runs are a big waste of people's time and efforts. They don't want to carry me, and I'd rather not be carried. I don't find that fun.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    charononus wrote: »
    It's not perfect but it's all we got. BTW my opinion on the req is that it should be 13k.
    13k makes sense. It's reasonably easily achievable nowadays and is the required amount for eLoL so has internal logic. I certainly wouldn't take a 10k GS toon in there - in fact I have an ~11k GS Faithful DC that I won't be running through there any time soon.

    The current limit is too low IMO.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • bellumomniumbellumomnium Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I think it should be at least a 13k requirement, I am willing to work with lower GS as long as they have a good attitude and try to do their part.
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