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Stranges Things In New MMORPGs
karakla1
Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
Hi,
Lately i thought about all the strange things that occure in MMORPGs like NPCs that crying for a hero for help to get rid of some simple task but then i thought about some strange chances from old mmorpg's to new ones. Old like really old and like 10 year old games from around 2K/millennium.
For me it is the enemy'S and monsters. I remember an old asia grinder that in played nearly 5 years in which enemys had different skills for attack but somekind of own stats.
Like an Stone Golem that had an immunity to bleeding, immunity to fire and an resistance for piercing damage from weapons like daggers and moved really slow but if he caught up with he one or two short strikes was enough to kill you nut he also had weaknesses. Like blunt weapons dealt more damage and rooting him was more effective.
If i thought now of newly mmorpgs like Neverwinter it only categorize enemys/monsters with only a few specific stats and abilities.
For example: If i run Karrundax there we have magma golems which i can damage with fire. I mean... errr he is molten stone, the only reason he lifes is because he is hot like hell. Or Archon, they are literally animated fire... how can a flame hurt them. In my opinion it would be more likely if they get healed by it.
But maybe i am the only one that thinks this is strange... in my opionion such little difference make a good game to a great game...
But what are your expierences? Which strange things did you find in Neverwinter or other similar games (no calling names please) that where not there in older games but changed...
Lately i thought about all the strange things that occure in MMORPGs like NPCs that crying for a hero for help to get rid of some simple task but then i thought about some strange chances from old mmorpg's to new ones. Old like really old and like 10 year old games from around 2K/millennium.
For me it is the enemy'S and monsters. I remember an old asia grinder that in played nearly 5 years in which enemys had different skills for attack but somekind of own stats.
Like an Stone Golem that had an immunity to bleeding, immunity to fire and an resistance for piercing damage from weapons like daggers and moved really slow but if he caught up with he one or two short strikes was enough to kill you nut he also had weaknesses. Like blunt weapons dealt more damage and rooting him was more effective.
If i thought now of newly mmorpgs like Neverwinter it only categorize enemys/monsters with only a few specific stats and abilities.
For example: If i run Karrundax there we have magma golems which i can damage with fire. I mean... errr he is molten stone, the only reason he lifes is because he is hot like hell. Or Archon, they are literally animated fire... how can a flame hurt them. In my opinion it would be more likely if they get healed by it.
But maybe i am the only one that thinks this is strange... in my opionion such little difference make a good game to a great game...
But what are your expierences? Which strange things did you find in Neverwinter or other similar games (no calling names please) that where not there in older games but changed...
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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Simply ask yourself how much fun it would be, to be excluded from content simply because the class you are playing might be weak against mobs in that particular area. Things are just starting to get to a point where every class has a way to contribute to a PvE group. And even after a year and a half of changes and constant tuning, its still far from perfect. I see no reason to add in elements that only serve to undo that.
In Neverwinter we don't have such an open world. But we have enchants that transform or ADD damage of various sources. Like plague fire enchantment. You go in the abyss and fighting these abnormal strange creatures from another dimension or transformed human beings that are infected with the plague and using a plague fire enchantment against them...
I mean... they live in it. I mean... wouldn't it give them some kind of boost/buff to attack them with a plague fire enchantment?
Or undead creature. They are filled up with necrotic energy to animate them. Wouldn't necrotic damage heal/buff them and holy damage would deal extra damage?
I don't think that such a system would break Neverwinter or similar MMORPGs it would enhanced it and spice things up.
This. It's why a lot of games have moved away from system like this.
I remember raiding Molten Core in WoW. Oh, you're a fire mage...respec or don't play.
Or imagine being a rogue and going into a dungeon full of undead...which take minimal damage from piercing weapons.
Or watching a wizard steamroll everything because he has a wide access to different damage types, while your great weapon fighter only has a sword.
That's not fun for anyone.
Um...no. There's necrotic, fire, arcane, cold, divine, radiant, and so on. I'm sure I haven't gotten all the types but I think I've made my point.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Red dragon — 50% additional DR to fire, take 150% dmg from cold.
White dragon — 50% additional DR to cold, take 150% dmg from fire.
Blue dragon — 50% additional DR to lightning, take 150% dmg from divine.
Green dragon — 50% additional DR to acid, take 150% dmg from radiant.
and so on.
CW used Ice Knife!
Critical Hit!
It's Super Effective!
Enemy Red Dragon Head Fainted!
CW gained 51 EXP points!
CW gained 1 Linu's Favor for winning
Also radiant and divine damage are the same thing and it's classified as positive damage, necrotic is basically negative damage so divine/necrotic are positive/negative for our purposes. (maybe radiant exists as a damage type only because of that one enchant for hero of the north, dunno)
For example, my passive, Combustive Action:
Neverwinter Nights was based on 3.5e dnd and had exactly that kind of set up. There were about a dozen damage types and the same number of resistances. Yes, things like fire elementals would be 100% resistant to fire but considering that fire from a magical weapon or from a spell did (x) fire damage and (y) magic damage, the elemental would still take (y) damage in full. There were tiers of damage types: physical, elemental, exotic, and esoteric. Lower level characters and pve enemies would do and have resistance to, the more basic damage types (those covered by physical), and as a character gained levels and better gear he and his pve enemies would likewise have an increased range of damage types and resistances. Best in Slot gear depended entirely on what exactly you were facing, and good dungeon design meant a variety of monsters who had a variety of damage types and resistances, to keep things interesting. So there was no true BiS, but instead the fun of collecting as many different powerful armors and weapons as possible to increase your range of damage and resistance.
Beyond damage types were special powers, cc, rooting, death magic. These were covered by saving throws which were based in character class, ability score, and skills taken.
A very very eloquent, complex, yet also concise system.
Resistance should not be based in class but in gear, with class as a secondary basis as best.
Same goes for attacks. In the same old MMORPG, each foe has few attacks but you cannot know which one is coming. It can be three time in a row the same one, it's random. Here in NWO once you get the foe's cycle the fight stops being a fight b/c you know what is coming next.
It works great in PnP and in single player games like Baldur's Gate. However it could be pretty problematic in NWN to content with (especially as a content developer) and is a large portion of the reason I didn't care for DDO.
Is it for the better? That's debatable. But it was definitely something done on purpose because it does cause massive favoritism problems. Nothing is worse for an MMO community than being told you are not welcome to do content because your class is less effective. It's bad enough as it is here without worrying about damage types.
There is one example with the Scourge Warlock of damage type mattering. One of the feats or powers does additional damage if you use necrotic damage and the damage caused from terror enchantments do proc the power or feat. Sadly I can't recall the specifics of the build off the top of my head but it does work.
This is how martial classes work. However with magic it's dependent on the magic. So having a frost based wizard makes you SOL with cold based monsters. And even if you could switch to alternatives if you are specialized to do cold then you're not going to be as good as somebody else with a different spec.
If you were to do Frozen Heart you would want to bring a fire specced wizard. Not a frost specced wizard pretending to be a fire wizard.
Even with martial classes though, you would spec into specific weapons and when you weren't using that weapon you would not be an ideal performer. If you specialized in scimitars but switched to a mace in order to fight skeletons you would still perform worse than a character who specced into maces.
And in an MMO that's exactly what people do...they find people who are best suited for the task when in co-op games and in PnP you just make due with the members you have available.
they did add a few different damage types that actually mean smth
ice from IWD
piercing
necrotic for SW capstone
maybe rimefire, though i view it more as a debuff
I gave an example with fire damage already, ambisinisterr gave example with necrotic damage, I will to add 2 more examples:
Cold
Arcane Presence Golden Dragon Talisman
Black Ice
Some gear can reduce Black Ice damage.
There is even Skirmish than requires players to have at least 20% Black Ice Resistance to queue.
Example: Purified Black Ice Armor (TR)
There are 4 examples, but role of damage types if much more, imo still too few.
I think the blunt versus sharp weapon issue needs to be dropped, though. That would requires creation of a new set of blunt weapons for every melee class as well as annoying weapon swapping in combat (which might end in death while in the inventory screen).
Overall, it would be cool of this could be implemented in the future - would probably be quite a while as this would require a pretty serious game engine redesign.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Actually, even then it wouldn't help. Our master of flame path is not typical fire, its RimeFire, meaning all the fire spells are still cold based. We have no option for a fire based caster in the game.
And that illustrates the problem with all this. There simply arn't enough damage types for each class to fall back to, for this request to be viable. Wizards are actually the lucky ones with two main forms of damage, cold and lightning. Most others only have one. Clerics are limited to only radiant damage with Warlocks limited to Necrotic.
The only way to get around this would be to either change many of the powers and spells to offer a wider array of damage options. Or to make weapon enchantments override the attacks damage type. This would be an expensive option, pretty much forcing everyone to carry a array of different type of weapon enchantments. This would also be horribly newbie unfriendly, as for most new players, they dont normally even get the ability to socket an enchantment until level 60.
MAGIC!
/waves hands
In Skyrim, fire atronachs are immune to fire. And not only they're immune, but the other foes know it as well, and when your fire atronach meets a fire atronach summoned by some evil wizard, they don't even try to attack each other.
So yes, here ideally speaking if your companion delivers Necrotic damage and some foe has Necrotic immunitythen your companion should target another foe instead, or at least try a different attack on the immuned foe. But before reaching the level of immunity management of the other games, NWO should at least implement the first step and give some chill immunity to ice creatures, some fire immunity to fire archons/golems, terror immunity to golems/undeads.
Tired of Dailies/Tyranny of Dailies/Timers of Doom/Tricked Or Duped/Tremendously Obnoxious Dailies/Try Otherwise, Devs
RimeFire is not a spell, but aspect of MoF only mechanic, Smolder, gained and refreshed by chill. Without chill, its simple Smolder, making fire damage aswell.
Every MoF specific spell makes fire damage, it means trorth of the following:
with this sentence you can justify every inconistence and plot hole.
I think another way is to arrange enemies in dungeons so all classes are equally effective or ineffective. Such as having mobs be weak and stong to certain damage types on a room by room basis and not entire dungeons.
Another way would be to have better "secondary" powers that make classes useful:
Ok, the rogue is not so good vs skeletons in this room, but we need himn to pick that locked chest!
Ok, the fire mage is not so good with these fire archoins, but we need her to dispell that illusion and gain access to that secret room!
Ok, the fighter is not so good vs these ghosts, but we need him to smash that door down!
That kind of stuff
Acid: Afflicts the target with -x% Physical Damage resistance for 10 seconds.
They have been adding more dmg mechanics in every module, perhaps we will see some minor reworks or even new mechanics, that would be very nice.
The problem that would arise is that in a game with many different types of damage, you need to be able to change your gear and build fairly often. Since neverwinter charges in game currency and zen to switch enchants/build/feats it would never work here.
The UI just isn't friendly enough to be switching back and forth every time you switched zones or dungeons and even if you didn't have to respec for different types of damage every time, it would still be a pain in the *** to switch enchants and slot different encounters, dailies and at wills every time you wanted to play different zone.
In what universe, other than the real one, does that make sense?
In this universe you can drown a fish
This makes sense and is a well thought out point, though I played a high population nwn pw for about 8 years (higher grounds path of ascension), it made use of the full range of damages types and it was never a problem. This was a mod that had an extensive 'prime material' campaign as well as full inner plane (elemental) zones, feywild, nine hells, abyss, elysium, aboleths ect.
The solution was simply diverse mobs, spells, so on, and for the player to not over-specialize his character. Granted in that game you could customize your character a whole lot more, and a huge point was not to make it a full on "cold damage" spell caster because you would be limiting yourself and your use to your party.
As far as melee type characters, even if you specialize in a weapon whos non-magical version does only blunt damage (say mace), once you get past level 1 you find weapons of the same type (mace) which are magical and do other damage types in addition to blunt.
The point is having multiple weapons which each do multiple types of damage. Instead of a sword that does 100 damage, you would have a sword that does 20 piercing, 20 severing, 20 magical, 20 fire, 20 sonic damage. In terms of damage categories it would be 40 physical/20 elemental/40 exotic. That is going to do at least some damage to any mob it hits. The idea is to be using the weapon that is optimized for the mob you are fighting. That gives a huge incentive to run dungeons and makes them more rewarding because as you run dungeons you are acquiring gear that makes your character more useful rather than just acquiring gear to sell or trade or salvage.
No one is left out unless they over specialize. Neverwinter is not so well thought out as character builds are far less diverse, especially as you said, where magic users are concerned. The only real specialized magic users in nwn (the mod I played anyways) were those who buffed and those who specialized in death magic. Death magic doesn't exist in neverwinter due to the lack of saving throws.
The system wouldnt work in neverwinter, though I think it is a better system. It is what it is. This game lacks in many areas but has its positives also, like awesome combat button clicking. Which is actually pretty fun lol.