4% crit is pretty much 4% damage with storm spell factored.
Look, I will post a real encounter, where it really matters, when you have buffs/debuffs, etc. This is a normal Tiamat encounter, entering alone, with pugs.
I run with 30 INT, 21 CHA, 11,7K power, 2,5k crit, 2,5k ArmP
As you see the average damage of Storm Spell is 20,9K. There are huge spikes but lets face average.
If you have -4 INT and +4 CHA, you lose 4% dmg and 0,2 from learned spellcaster. Total 4,2% dmg lost.
You earn 4% crit and Storm Spell procs on 30% of crits so you have 0,04*0,3 = 0,012 more Storm Spells from non-crit hits
0,012*20,9K dmg each SS =250 more average dmg from non-crit-hits (because they can proc new storm spells)
I did 2557 hits (-426 that are storm spell hits) - 676 (things like nexus, fury, wild hunt etc.) = 1455 efective non-crit-hits
I had 41% average crit chance so 41% of those hits were already crits and doesnt increase the chance to proc new SS.
So 858 (59% of 1455) no-crit-hits * 250 more dmg per hit = 214500 more overall dmg (from 21352880 total) = 1% more dmg from SS.
Look, I will post a real encounter, where it really matters, when you have buffs/debuffs, etc. This is a normal Tiamat encounter, entering alone, with pugs.
I run with 30 INT, 21 CHA, 11,7K power, 2,5k crit, 2,5k ArmP
As you see the average damage of Storm Spell is 20,9K. There are huge spikes but lets face average.
If you have -4 INT and +4 CHA, you lose 4% dmg and 0,2 from learned spellcaster. Total 4,2% dmg lost.
You earn 4% crit and Storm Spell procs on 30% of crits so you have 0,04*0,3 = 0,012 more Storm Spells from non-crit hits
0,012*20,9K dmg each SS =250 more average dmg from non-crit-hits (because they can proc new storm spells)
I did 2557 hits (-426 that are storm spell hits) - 676 (things like nexus, fury, wild hunt etc.) = 1455 efective non-crit-hits
I had 41% average crit chance so 41% of those hits were already crits and doesnt increase the chance to proc new SS.
So 858 (59% of 1455) no-crit-hits * 250 more dmg per hit = 214500 more overall dmg (from 21352880 total) = 1% more dmg from SS.
Give him another cigar! I think it is safe to say that I should keep my owlbear belt.
And how much dmg do you think you'll get from that 4% crit on everything else? You didn't even factor that or the CA bonus.
Yes now put all the ingredients at the table and make all the calcs. I just answered to your phrase "4% crit is pretty much 4% damage with storm spell factored." Wich is false.
As I said I already did that test, taking all: CA bonus, Crit bonus, and storm spell procs. And Int wins but not by much.
Yes now put all the ingredients at the table and make all the calcs. I just answered to your phrase "4% crit is pretty much 4% damage with storm spell factored." Wich is false.
As I said I already did that test, taking all: CA bonus, Crit bonus, and storm spell procs. And Int wins but not by much.
Except that you didn't understand what I meant. I didn't say that the proc chance increase from storm spell alone was a 4% dps increase. I said that the 4% crit was about a 4% dps boost when adding the SS increased proc rate TO the damage increase from the crit itself.
And there's just no way that int wins compared to CHA for a renegade. Cha is something like 50% stronger than int for renegade.
0
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
edited December 2014
In my tests keeping all factors INT wins, but not by much as I said. I have 142% crit severity and 1090 CA bonus (+8,7%) and epic blink dog and epic intelect devourer.
If you say something like "CHA is 50% stronger than INT" you must put proofs to support it. Data from a real run like Tiamat. And then make the calcs
In my tests keeping all factors INT wins, but not by much as I said. I have 142% crit severity and 1090 CA bonus (+8,7%) and epic blink dog and epic intelect devourer.
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In my tests keeping all factors INT wins, but not by much as I said. I have 142% crit severity and 1090 CA bonus (+8,7%) and epic blink dog and epic intelect devourer.
If you say something like "CHA is 50% stronger than INT" you must put proofs to support it. Data from a real run like Tiamat. And then make the calcs
"Where it really matters"...
To have strong single target spells for a CW and Repel demons into the oblivion? :rolleyes: Heal a lot and still be in the gold bracket?
Besides, how can anyone tell that you've really made the effort of building a high CHA build primarily? Also, what Feats have you been using with the build? And what rotation(s). Makes no sense to offer this without more scrutiny, I'm afraid.
Edit : AH, nvm, I saw Rimefire Smolder there giving "you" 400K DPS
Talking strictly from a renegade's point of view - It's a rather simple math afaik, no offense to anyone. A relatively high Critical chance will make Storm Spell to proc more often, and constantly frozen enemies will make things that much easier. In which case the Chilling Cloud takes a great deal of advantage over the MM when it comes around for the Chill effect.
I was able to do so much more DPS with a simple 4% crit boost since not just storm spell, but all spells had a higher crit boost, resulting in constant crits most of the time. Which really matters greatly when you collect around 20-30 mobs and unleash the fury, which, for an example, is happening in VT runs.
In VT you have high HP mobs with a high enough numbers of them and no debuffs and other aspects like Bonus buffs from the encounter etc
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
0
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
Interesting items I noticed on the testing dummies yesterday.
With Blink Dog (5% CA bonus) in an active slot I could DPS on the target dummies for a bit before they broke (push the target dummy to 0 health & it stops taking ground based damage - IT & SS).
When I pulled out Blink Dog for Sellsword (300 power), I couldn't seem to get through more than a few seconds of dps before the dummies broke.
Really curious if any of the CA bonus pets are better than straight power at higher crit rates....hard to really test basic numbers with gear on without target dummies that stay alive long enough for a parse.
Also, I would be inclined to think Char could be far better than Int in some cases...like pushing crit above the 33% mark or pushing it above the 50% mark regardless of CA bonuses.
I'm using the owlbear belt, but if I ever ended up with rediculous amounts of RP to spare, I would probably switch to Black Ice (2int/2char).
In other words, if you can constantly hit Critical Strikes and have well above 50% of Critical Chance, invest furthermore in the Inteligence.
But, if you don't have it, invest in Charisma. Or if you want to have both flavours and you are seeing the obvious potential, invest in the CHA/INT builds, and make tweaks.
If you're playing PvP as a CW, you don't need any of these and you should seek more regen/hp/control/arpen in the general sense.
INT builds will be better without using the HV set, however.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
If you want to utilize the build completely to be viable in all cases you will go to get the pure INT bonus, especially when it comes around for the Single Target spells.
CHA is used mostly to get a viable damage via increasing the Critical Chance ratio and in the case of MOD5 CW who does DPS only after a certain amount of conditions are primarily met, meaning that it will increase the orange numbers for each hit.
If you use Eye of the Storm in combination with whatever or whichever, investment in CHA build makes no sense unless you run a very high CA ratio, which isn't the case unless you're a very unique player.
Since the Thaum build is mostly pure rotation sequence which is based on proper timing, it makes no sense to invest in the CHA build if you're going to play as a Thaumaturge. Thaums should stick close to the INT build and G.Plaguefire, especially in the case where no HV is present.
Utilizing HV set bonuses for high number damage will always result in the INT>Power Ratio, since 1 INT can and will increase your DPS significantly, let alone 4 INT. Why not HV with INT? Simply because you can't start a rotation with Steal Time, which is the Strongest AOE Magic Spell for a CW which you actively use and the rest of the DPS will come from ticks, mostly.
HV is a different story since it increases the DPS so much that you can rarely tell the difference between the full CHA or full INT builds, and the real differencw come out dependant upon your
a) Average damage of the Weapon.
b) Power ratio.
c) Feats.
But if you're not using the HV set, you want to go and use the Owl INT one since most of the other options for the Critical Chance and a Wizard can be fairly easy to obtain. And on top of that INT you want to go G.Pfire
It's a matter of choice, if you're getting the DPS by Single Target spells, invest in INT. If you're getting DPS by AOE spells, invest in the CHA/INT.
In most cases you will be using both Single and AOE spells so a CHA/INT build is highly recommended in any case because we don't know what the future holds after a while and whether something's going to be changed drastically like before.
In any case, if things remained as they were in MOD4, I would go for the OWL belt. Since I'm a Renegade SS CW, I go for INT/CHA build.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Comments
Look, I will post a real encounter, where it really matters, when you have buffs/debuffs, etc. This is a normal Tiamat encounter, entering alone, with pugs.
I run with 30 INT, 21 CHA, 11,7K power, 2,5k crit, 2,5k ArmP
As you see the average damage of Storm Spell is 20,9K. There are huge spikes but lets face average.
If you have -4 INT and +4 CHA, you lose 4% dmg and 0,2 from learned spellcaster. Total 4,2% dmg lost.
You earn 4% crit and Storm Spell procs on 30% of crits so you have 0,04*0,3 = 0,012 more Storm Spells from non-crit hits
0,012*20,9K dmg each SS =250 more average dmg from non-crit-hits (because they can proc new storm spells)
I did 2557 hits (-426 that are storm spell hits) - 676 (things like nexus, fury, wild hunt etc.) = 1455 efective non-crit-hits
I had 41% average crit chance so 41% of those hits were already crits and doesnt increase the chance to proc new SS.
So 858 (59% of 1455) no-crit-hits * 250 more dmg per hit = 214500 more overall dmg (from 21352880 total) = 1% more dmg from SS.
Caturday Survivor
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Give him another cigar! I think it is safe to say that I should keep my owlbear belt.
Yes now put all the ingredients at the table and make all the calcs. I just answered to your phrase "4% crit is pretty much 4% damage with storm spell factored." Wich is false.
As I said I already did that test, taking all: CA bonus, Crit bonus, and storm spell procs. And Int wins but not by much.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Except that you didn't understand what I meant. I didn't say that the proc chance increase from storm spell alone was a 4% dps increase. I said that the 4% crit was about a 4% dps boost when adding the SS increased proc rate TO the damage increase from the crit itself.
And there's just no way that int wins compared to CHA for a renegade. Cha is something like 50% stronger than int for renegade.
If you say something like "CHA is 50% stronger than INT" you must put proofs to support it. Data from a real run like Tiamat. And then make the calcs
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Do you factor in storm spell procs?
"Where it really matters"...
To have strong single target spells for a CW and Repel demons into the oblivion? :rolleyes: Heal a lot and still be in the gold bracket?
Besides, how can anyone tell that you've really made the effort of building a high CHA build primarily? Also, what Feats have you been using with the build? And what rotation(s). Makes no sense to offer this without more scrutiny, I'm afraid.
Edit : AH, nvm, I saw Rimefire Smolder there giving "you" 400K DPS
Talking strictly from a renegade's point of view - It's a rather simple math afaik, no offense to anyone. A relatively high Critical chance will make Storm Spell to proc more often, and constantly frozen enemies will make things that much easier. In which case the Chilling Cloud takes a great deal of advantage over the MM when it comes around for the Chill effect.
I was able to do so much more DPS with a simple 4% crit boost since not just storm spell, but all spells had a higher crit boost, resulting in constant crits most of the time. Which really matters greatly when you collect around 20-30 mobs and unleash the fury, which, for an example, is happening in VT runs.
In VT you have high HP mobs with a high enough numbers of them and no debuffs and other aspects like Bonus buffs from the encounter etc
Yes with storm spell procs. In a very low power build, cha should be better because of this.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
With Blink Dog (5% CA bonus) in an active slot I could DPS on the target dummies for a bit before they broke (push the target dummy to 0 health & it stops taking ground based damage - IT & SS).
When I pulled out Blink Dog for Sellsword (300 power), I couldn't seem to get through more than a few seconds of dps before the dummies broke.
Really curious if any of the CA bonus pets are better than straight power at higher crit rates....hard to really test basic numbers with gear on without target dummies that stay alive long enough for a parse.
Also, I would be inclined to think Char could be far better than Int in some cases...like pushing crit above the 33% mark or pushing it above the 50% mark regardless of CA bonuses.
I'm using the owlbear belt, but if I ever ended up with rediculous amounts of RP to spare, I would probably switch to Black Ice (2int/2char).
But, if you don't have it, invest in Charisma. Or if you want to have both flavours and you are seeing the obvious potential, invest in the CHA/INT builds, and make tweaks.
If you're playing PvP as a CW, you don't need any of these and you should seek more regen/hp/control/arpen in the general sense.
INT builds will be better without using the HV set, however.
How do you come to this conclusion?
CHA is used mostly to get a viable damage via increasing the Critical Chance ratio and in the case of MOD5 CW who does DPS only after a certain amount of conditions are primarily met, meaning that it will increase the orange numbers for each hit.
If you use Eye of the Storm in combination with whatever or whichever, investment in CHA build makes no sense unless you run a very high CA ratio, which isn't the case unless you're a very unique player.
Since the Thaum build is mostly pure rotation sequence which is based on proper timing, it makes no sense to invest in the CHA build if you're going to play as a Thaumaturge. Thaums should stick close to the INT build and G.Plaguefire, especially in the case where no HV is present.
Utilizing HV set bonuses for high number damage will always result in the INT>Power Ratio, since 1 INT can and will increase your DPS significantly, let alone 4 INT. Why not HV with INT? Simply because you can't start a rotation with Steal Time, which is the Strongest AOE Magic Spell for a CW which you actively use and the rest of the DPS will come from ticks, mostly.
HV is a different story since it increases the DPS so much that you can rarely tell the difference between the full CHA or full INT builds, and the real differencw come out dependant upon your
a) Average damage of the Weapon.
b) Power ratio.
c) Feats.
But if you're not using the HV set, you want to go and use the Owl INT one since most of the other options for the Critical Chance and a Wizard can be fairly easy to obtain. And on top of that INT you want to go G.Pfire
It's a matter of choice, if you're getting the DPS by Single Target spells, invest in INT. If you're getting DPS by AOE spells, invest in the CHA/INT.
In most cases you will be using both Single and AOE spells so a CHA/INT build is highly recommended in any case because we don't know what the future holds after a while and whether something's going to be changed drastically like before.
In any case, if things remained as they were in MOD4, I would go for the OWL belt. Since I'm a Renegade SS CW, I go for INT/CHA build.