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Tiamat raid needs to follow same AFK rules as PvP/GG matches

ogariousogarious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 740 Arc User
edited December 2014 in General Discussion (PC)
Hey folks. I thing something needs to be done about afk players in the new Tiamat raid. Talking to several friends doing the raid right now and their instance is doomed to fail because already 9 people out of the 25 have decided to go AFK after the first few minutes.

In a GG match if your afk for longer then 2 minutes you will get kicked and given a half hour or hour cooldown where you cannot do any skirmishes or PvP or dungeons. This needs to be done in the Tiamat raids as well.

There are Tiamat raids that are failing that could have gotten successes because people go afk if they dont like the way things are going within the first minute or two.

Also, changing instances should not be allowed in Tiamat, or if it is allowed, it should be a without a cooldown and only allowed during the pre stage of the Tiamat raid. After the raid begins, no changes should be allowed.

Now granted there are bugs in the Tiamat raid right now, like the problem with the black head not popping fully if someone attacks before it's fully risen to the top, or clerics just deciding to go on strike and not do anything. And then there's the bug where even if you kill all the heads when the timer is below 2 seconds it'll go to the next phase or fail you out anyways, or not getting any rewards on some wins....Lets just get the timers in there on afk people.....
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    katamaster81899katamaster81899 Member Posts: 1,157 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    +1 This needs to be a thing
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    kittykaboomboomkittykaboomboom Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    yes, I 've been hearing a lot of comments in zone and other channels about people staying in the hall.

    some people need to change instances because their group was split or their isn't enough people in theirs.

    clerics- these are the ones , people have been saying, don't use these particular spells?
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    namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    not sure if it will help. Lot of people go AFK when after the first the round the zerg did not come close to taking down two dragons to 20%. That instance is already a fail. And any other instance with open slot are probably in the same situation, or glitched. So might as well go afk and wait for the end, and hope you can still come away with a bag.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited December 2014
    First time I ever went to Tiamat (I haven't had the time to play) and literally 10-15 people stood in the base from the start...

    Not very happy doesn't begin to describe my feelings ATM. I actually just sent some feedback to Akromatik before I even saw this thread.
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    kittykaboomboomkittykaboomboom Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    not sure if it will help. Lot of people go AFK when after the first the round the zerg did not come close to taking down two dragons to 20%. That instance is already a fail. And any other instance with open slot are probably in the same situation, or glitched. So might as well go afk and wait for the end, and hope you can still come away with a bag.

    so if you're having problems, you give up and stop trying? Thereby guaranteeing failure. meanwhile, the other people keep trying
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    hexanna22hexanna22 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 204 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    people go afk even in successful runs, I have seen 2- 3 afk the whole fight before.
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    drinnthdrinnth Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Pretty rare to see an afk before phase 1, they do happen(bots, players trolling the event and hoping you win it for them). If after phase 1, and it looks like the encounter is a bust/fail, I have seen the few start afking at the campfire. It is even more likely when phase 2 is over and not all dragon heads are in the kill zone. After phase 3 and you are just waiting more Elminster to turn back time, almost everyone is sitting at the campfire.

    If you haven't left the campfire by the time the summoners die, you should be booted from instance unless you have a dragon soul. Give any new player to the instance after the summoners are dead and no soul can be obtain, a timer to leave the area. If they don't leave within the allowed time, kick from instance.

    If you left the campfire and obtained a dragon soul, you at least attempted the instance and deserve to stay to the end.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited December 2014
    drinnth wrote: »
    If you left the campfire and obtained a dragon soul, you at least attempted the instance and deserve to stay to the end.

    I can't say I truly agree with this after my experience.

    They went out there but didn't like how phase 2 went so they equivocally gave those still trying the middle finger. That's not acceptable behavior.

    I'm all for votes on giving up...but don't put your decision on other people. This is sort of the situation that comes up in League of Legends and other MOBAs. Some guy turns into a three year old with a hissy fit and decides to rage quit. This inherintly causes a loss for the rest of the people. It's disrespectful and is thus a punishable offense. If the team doesn't agree to surrender then you have no business surrendering unless you want to be put in the corner for a time out.

    Don't put your time as more valuable than others. You can't decide for the rest of the people that it's not worth it and expect to get rewarded.
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I can't say I truly agree with this after my experience.

    They went out there but didn't like how phase 2 went so they equivocally gave those still trying the middle finger. That's not acceptable behavior.

    I'm all for votes on giving up...but don't put your decision on other people. This is sort of the situation that comes up in League of Legends and other MOBAs. Some guy turns into a three year old with a hissy fit and decides to rage quit. This inherintly causes a loss for the rest of the people. It's disrespectful and is thus a punishable offense. If the team doesn't agree to surrender then you have no business surrendering unless you want to be put in the corner for a time out.

    Don't put your time as more valuable than others. You can't decide for the rest of the people that it's not worth it and expect to get rewarded.
    To be fair it's why we need to be able to queue as a group of 25. Anytime you combine forced pugging and raiding you get this behavior. Either people giving up and hurting everyone or actual trolling to try to make the group fail.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited December 2014
    Whether your claim is true or not it really doesn't much matter in the end.

    The pug experience needs to be decent because I am NOT organising 25 friends to do raids...ever.

    Organizing raids has never been fun and I would rather see Tiamat nuked and removed from the game than have the only acceptable experience required organizing it with 25 people you know. Organising raids is a horrible experience in every MMO and you should remember I didn't want them in the game for this exact reason.


    As such I told Akromatik that the direct cause of this was the disagreement on whether to Zerg or not. Half wanted to. Half didn't. The end result was the half that didn't decided to sit in the base.

    The fix is to stop one or the other from being an option.

    The issue with zerging one head at a time was brought up last week but compared to fixing the bugs and performance issues it's obviously not very high on the priority list. However that might change if people can't pug due to people deciding to stick tongues out at each other instead of working together.
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Whether your claim is true or not it really doesn't much matter in the end.

    The pug experience needs to be decent because I am NOT organising 25 friends to do raids...ever.

    Organizing raids has never been fun and I would rather see Tiamat nuked and removed from the game than have the only acceptable experience required organizing it with 25 people you know. Raids were horrible in every MMO and you should remember I didn't want them in the game for this exact reason.


    As such I told Akromatik that the direct cause of this was the disagreement on whether to Zerg or not. Half wanted to. Half didn't. The end result was the half that didn't decided to sit in the base.

    The issue with zerging one head was brought up last week but compared to fixing the bugs and performance issues it's obviously not very high on the priority list. However that might change if people can't pug due to people deciding to stick tongues out at each other instead of working together.

    Yeah I'm just thinking of another mmo I know that has people queue in seperate parties that get joined together into a large raid. It made the content dead because more times than not you got trolls in one of the groupings. Oddly the raids I've seen in other games that can be pugged or pre-made, don't have this issue. It's kind of odd but my experience has been that when you force it to be pugged you create more trolls and that they're pretty rare when you can pug or pre-made it. I don't have any idea why this is but.....
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited December 2014
    I suspect that the mechanics are the main factor not the grouping method in other MMO's. Any decently designed raid has a set mechanic in order to succeed.

    The issue here is that 25 people have two viable tactic options available to use and unless everybody is on the same page neither will work.

    For people to successfully zerg one head at a time they need to have 25 people attacking that head.
    For people to successfully fight heads individually they need to have a group of 5 on their head.

    Successful raid mechanics don't have two diverse options like that. As long as there remains two different tactics that can be used the pug experience will remain horrible and believe it or not the average player hates organising 25 people to do anything. That's a luxury request and NEVER a requirement.
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    drinnthdrinnth Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I found it very odd that you were not auto-placed into a team upon entry into that instance, like you would in a skirmish or dungeon. Dropping 25 ppl into a instance and basically saying "you guys figure it out" was probably not the best implementation.

    Players will always tend to figure out the "path of least resistance".

    In this case, the zerg method appeared because the so called 5v5 team method did not always work due to unbalanced teams.

    Having all 25 players attack each head in turn, lets you bring all the dps/buffs/debuffs/tanking in the PUG to bear and helps make up for the "weak" team members.

    It does not always work, if you do not have enough DPS, you are just not going to win. The same goes for 5v5. If your 5 man team is not balanced enough to beat 1 head in 3 tries, meaning if you can't do 33.4% damage per phase. You are going to lose. You only have 5 mins upon entry to figure all this out and no one has a list of who all is available and what they can do.

    In a normal raid situation, the leader would know the make-up and skills of the group and know who needs to go where to make the best of the situation.

    But in reality, you have a bunch of solo players who never really meet each other having to try to figure all that out in 5mins, and if you don't or you are wrong, you lose.
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    archsinner81archsinner81 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 44
    edited December 2014
    Which is why, i feel we should be doing a full 25 man grouping instead of the 5, as what dev are thinking.
    If i want to carry a 10k gs scrub, it will a scrub that i know. Not a hi/bye pug that maybe be watching youtube while we spend 20min killing tiamat.
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    vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    silly enough. if game is free to play, then you need strong restrict rules, otherwise game will be always a mess. game is one and half year old and dont looks like devs understand this, still

    will resticts harm casuals? no. casuals want to spend their time by fighting and not afk at campfire, so whats up?
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I try to time out for a real tactical run. But 1//2 the time you land in yet another zerg-fail. Personaly I am going to fight it out eaither way but empathically I sympathize with the campfire sitters. Your personal ability does not matter best to play it safe, turn on netflix, and grab your bag of Linu's failure wyhen it is all over. There aere a few days when the mod came out that you could timed-entry grab a group of people who had a plan. I made around 40 Linu then because I was off of work. Now? Zergfail over and over again. This is the new content and it is unplayable because it is dominated by unorginized mobs.
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Gonna be honest, I've given up when it's clear we won't win it. Say if we're zerging and don't take 2 or close to 2 drake heads, it's just going to be a loss. If it could improve (since green is the toughest one to kill) then I'll see how it pans out the next round. I don't afk at the campfire, that's a wasted slot. Not going to mention what I do do, some of you can probably guess. It will be better when we can party up. I hate the ones that afk when we can or may win though. Some people give up too easy or just grief others.
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    d4rthd00fusd4rthd00fus Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    The sad part of all this is that this Raid could have been special, but you know that bean counters told the suits at PWE that in order to make the game pop surge again, they needed to be fully inclusive with this new end game content. The problem with bean counters and suits telling the devs what is required is that they have no insight as to how to make this actually work, so the devs are left to sort it themselves and obviously were a bit overwhelmed by it.

    The solution is actually quite simple with the mechanics in place already to support it. The GG PVP Queue can be modified to have a 25 player limit. It can then be tier split, with 10-14K GS players moved into a version of the fight appropriate to their gearing level and the 15KGS and up players fighting the current version of the fight. Reward levels would be appropriate to gearing the class you are in with T1 rewards and minor RP/enchant drops going to the lower level players, and T2 gear and higher level RP items going to the higher level group.

    The bugs of course are another experience crushing problem that needs to be addressed. One suggestion I have there for the cowardly dragon heads is to make the area around the dragon heads a fast death zone similar to the poison dragon AOE strike until the heads are all the way up to prevent overly excited players from attacking them early and bugging them. I've got more but as I'm not paid by cryptic, I'll have to let them sort some of their own issues.
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    query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    You say thins like GS is the problem, which it is not. The biggest sourse of failure is poor planning. Lets say that we are all 15K+ and we ques based on GS and the composition is about the same as we got inthe forum poll about fighting Tiamat. 11 go zerg, 9 go Tactics, and 6 go split-zerg. What is the likely outcome?

    If the 6 who split split evenly we have 3 on white and 14 on black. Not a good sign for white. Tactics players will try to group but there are only enough for 2 groups. and since most go to color to group odds are only one signifigant party comes out of this. So one dragon head is spoken for. Black as wellis certainly down likely green too (unless tactics took green and now the zerg has to skip to red). My math says 3 at 10% come phase three not to mention the odds that people working different plans are more likely to accidentally kill in phase 2. Odds are grouping by GS is going to fail badly. And I say this with 18-20K toons running Tiamat at this time. REal solutions are based on changing the instance to account for planning.

    1. Simply add plan to que. If 25 people with the same plan are in the instance (OK, trolls, 23) odds of an enjoyable run are pretty high.
    2. Lock instance and add time. As it stands right now Tiamat is worse (selection wise)than a random PUG que. At least in a PUG you can stand outside the boss's gate for 10 minutes and develop a plan. So when you enter a Tiamat instance rather than having that 5 minute timer have it be a locked instance like a regular delve. Give us from entry till the next herald spawn to open the second gate and start the fight. I honestly don't imagine this would involve much coding work. Write it like delve hour only treat Tiamat as a dungeon that always starts on the boss (TIamat) gate. So if it takes 15 minutes for everyone to get on the same plan that time is there.
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    djoffer1djoffer1 Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Agree just finished a tiamat run(succesfully i might add) and we had 3 people afking the Whole time at camp fire, not sure if they actually get a reward, but i suspect they do, and well that kind of sucks...
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    gerult#2209 gerult Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    And there are a lot of instance changers
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    namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I did five runs today, all failed. At the beginning of each run, I saw maybe one or two AFK. After the first phase, when it was apparent the run is a fail, more AFKs showed up. So the AFKs is not the main cause of failed runs. Its the result of people realizing a futile effort.
    No matter which strategy is used, there needs to be enough DPS. If you are zerging, at least two heads need to go down in each phase. If you are doing the heads at the same time, you need to knock them down 1/3 HP each phase. After the first phase, its easy to tell what the outcome will be. The biggest problem is the number of low GS players.
    And instance changers, there is no where to go. No one leaves a winning instance. Any instance with open slots are failed or glitched.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited December 2014
    kalindra wrote: »
    This my be true for you personally, but other players on other MMOs may like to do it and take the incentive to do it to NWO.
    Maybe it shouldn't be mandatory to play an event / raid, bu it should be an option for success.

    You completely missed the point.

    Organizing raids is a luxury. The only thing the devs need to care about is making the pug experience acceptable. The premade groups of 25 need to be completely optional and cared about after they fix the raid to be a decent pug experience.

    Never is organizing 25 people a solution. It's a band-aid.
    No different than the incessant PMvPM argument the PvPers keep whining about.

    Making content require organizing complete groups is NEVER a solution.
    query523 wrote: »
    You say thins like GS is the problem, which it is not. The biggest sourse of failure is poor planning. Lets say that we are all 15K+ and we ques based on GS and the composition is about the same as we got inthe forum poll about fighting Tiamat. 11 go zerg, 9 go Tactics, and 6 go split-zerg. What is the likely outcome?

    This is 100% correct. I ended up grabbing friends and doing Tiamat yesterday. When 20/25 works for the same goal we did fine. The only problem was when people split their desired strategy and more importantly sat their sorry behinds in the base because people were 'too dumb' to use their strategy.

    I mean one success yesterday was ridden with a bunch of zergers who were so deadset and stupid they blamed people not working together for not being able to defeat 4 nearly dead heads and one head from 35% health in one go.
    Meanwhile anybody who wasn't so stuck into zerging would have known it was the travel time which caused the lack of success. Either the party could have split up more or we could have waited a round...but no. Instead they blame the opposite of the cause of the problem just because 'zerging works.'

    If people planned better and didn't constantly bicker whether over running together as a giant mob of idiots or separately as smaller tactful groups the matches would be successful every time.
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    ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    No different than the incessant PMvPM argument the PvPers keep whining about.

    Pve and Pvp are different things. A good experience for pugs in pvp is to make a true solo queue and to get that you need to give a pm vs pm as well. "whining" = asking for
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    kobayashikumihokobayashikumiho Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I'm a bean counter. I love Excel and Spreadsheets. I also like to be efficient with my time because we all have the same 24 hours in a day. Bottom line: Tiamat is just not worth your time. Or MY time anyhow.

    My main character has 16.9k GS. Considering how much time, money, and energy that has gone into getting that GS I can tell you that getting a GS like that takes a lot of effort. Many people just don't have that much virtual skin invested into the game. Most people I inspect in the first 5m of the raid are below me. The best I've seen is 18.8k and the lowest is 10.9k. The average is about 14k. I actually did not crunch the numbers on this. I'm just making a generality based off observations. Everything else I crunched the numbers on.

    I think the Devs overestimated the population's ability to pull this off. Look at the Horde Reclamation for example. Rarely does it break past 10%. I dumped 22,500 points into the system one evening and saw no appreciable rise. 66,000 points gets me everything I want for my character because the gloves come off the AH for next to nothing so the only thing favor is needed for is the armor, head, and off-hand (the boons are too expensive IMHO). Once my two mains have those things I'm done with Tiamat. I don't foresee Reclamation ever breaking into the 3rd and 4th tier frequently, if ever again. People are trying to schedule donation drives by zone chat but I don't see it working (Fri 4 pm PST / 7 pm EST for example) any better than non-scheduled donations.

    There was a lot of complaints that Tiamat was too easy and to make it harder. I think those people got what they wanted.

    I've done six attempts so far and none have been successful. The last attempt was the best of the six but still not anywhere close. Each attempt costs realistically about 30 minutes of time. I noticed a number of people either idling or having no clue what was going on and soloing a head. Six lost attempts is 3 lost hours of time and all you have to show for that is 6 minor resonance stones (~1000 AD each) plus an enchantment shard or a hoard coin pouch. The pouch is worth 6,000 AD on the AH so for each failure you get approximately 7,000 AD in a best case. Assuming 500 AD per Zen, you receive about 14 cents for your half hour. Or about 28 cents an hour. I can get more than 28 cents an hour doing online surveys. Consequently I am better off doing the online surveys, using the Paypal option reward, and just buying the Zen.

    I crunched the numbers. A Dragon Hoard Coffer is worth 15 points and costs 2,000 AD on the AH. So one point is 134 AD. It takes 1,500 points to get a Favor. So a successful Tiamat run that yields 1 Favor is worth 201,000 AD. Assuming that 1 in 7 runs is successful, a run is worth 30,000 AD. Assuming the 500:1 exchange rate an average run is worth 60 cents or $1.20 USD per hour.

    Meanwhile, if you just slay heralds, the average slay circle is 90 points. Best case you can get 150, worst is 50. You also may get coffers as well but let's just look the coins only. A slay run takes 10 minutes. So you can do 6 runs in an hour of time or 540 points in coins. This works out to 72,360 AD or $1.44 USD per hour. PLUS you get coffers, blue 60s for refinement, occasional purples for salvaging, and rarely belts. There's no comparison. I'm better of slaying heralds.

    So really it makes no sense to do Tiamat which is a complete gamble if you will be successful, plus you have to wonder if there are going to be no rewards because of bug issues.

    Tiamat offers great equipment rewards which amazingly don't require any actual raid participation because you can get them all from the vendor. I think this is great because I want to get something for my time rather than gambling my time on something that may bug out or I have to support socialist players keeping warm by the fire while everyone else fights the good fight. I like playing solo and this rewards just that. Slaying heralds is the way to go. Or if you really are strapped for time you can just buy everything with the swipe of a credit card since there are unlimited points available in the AH though coffers and coin pouches. That shiny offhand is worth $61.70 USD by the way. Based on the 1 in 7 Tiamat success rate that will only take you 52.5 hours of play time. :P That's $1.17 USD/hr.

    Count me out of Tiamat. I'm running herald slaying circles a few times a day and buying the rest of the necessary points off the AH when coffers are at 2000 AD. It was a really good idea though and fun for a couple of attempts. I love the new equipment and how it can be completely soloed and credit card opted out for those who value their time at more than $1 USD hour but still want to have the top GS.

    For those crying pay-to-win, those people paying and buying coffers off the AH are keeping the servers running for those who don't drop a dime. Since I am subscription fee adverse, this pay-as-you-go or 100%-free-to-play work just fine for me. Lots of options on how to do the new content, and get the new stuff, but doing the raid is really the worst way to go rewards wise.
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    We actually got to 40% earlier and it only went to t2. It makes me wonder if there's another since on patch day I also noticed it took some time for the % to update on the chart.
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    synslaughtersynslaughter Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    To start, I do like the new Tiamat content. It's certainly more challenging, and an entirely unique experience when compared to other dungeons and content. It also holds an additional spark of newness for those like me, for whom this is the first "raid" experience in an MMORPG.

    That said, I'm in agreement that something - I'm not certain what, exactly - might need to be implemented to help with the chaos and some of the frequent imbalance. I've had two successful runs thus far, but over 10 failures. Two were "bug outs," four were simply so disorganized there was no hope of completion ("Zerg! Teams! No teams, ZERG!" and so forth), and the remainder were simply flat in the DPS department, despite the fact that nobody in that particular instance was afk or just meandering about and taking in the scenery.

    I'm at a loss for other ideas, less perhaps a regular/epic dual variation in the Tiamat event, one with a lower GS requirement and one higher? The epic could sport a potential reward of two Linu's Favor, the normal just one, something like that. I'm not certain how else to even begin addressing the instances with insufficient damage capability to complete it. With other dungeons and team content, if the team isn't exactly overwhelming in the DPS department, there's still the option of fulfilling the team roles more traditionally and being successful (even if a little more time-consuming.) Not so here: it's very much a geared-to-the-teeth striker/damager class's game.

    Don't get me wrong; I like the event. I really do. It just seems that a few tweaks somewhere might make it less of a struggle to succeed.
    I have the ability to heal you. A shield to protect you. Blades to slay your foes. Magic! So I'm a tiefling, so what? We have a common enemy, and a common goal. Here, you can put ornaments on my horns if it'll put you at ease.
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