Whisperknife VS Master Infiltrator

bakaslam

Hello guys,
I'd like to understand when and why to choose Whisperkinfe or Master Infiltrator Path.
I have just purchased a Respec Token and I'd like to know how to build my TR at its best.
I actually would like to go for an Hybrid/PVP TR.. Was thinking about being a Scoundrel or an Executioner.
What should I pick? WK or MI? And why?

xplmao2

The MI dickriders actually can't overhype ITC anymore lol. There's no more damage immunity when launched from stealth.

From my perspective, WhisperKnife is WAY harder to fight than an MI. Because:

1) Disheartening Strike is the most damaging at-will in the entire game with its bleeds

2) Vengeace's Pursuit = ITC arguably. (One has longer immunity, but the other also has a CC escape + Daze from distance when Scoundrel + damage + stun when launched from stealth)

3) MI has to get close with Gloaming cut, which gives you an opprotunity, while WK are more distant which is a pain in the ***.

bakaslam

Ok I made my decision.. I repec as a Whisperknife Scoundrel and I have to say that there is a big difference from before (Master Infiltrator Saboteur).. I don't know if it's the feat tree or the paragon path, but I do enjoy being a TR way more!
And I love the dynamic gamestyle of the Whisperknife!

wyndrarch

xplmao2 wrote: »

The MI dickriders actually can't overhype ITC anymore lol. There's no more damage immunity when launched from stealth.

From my perspective, WhisperKnife is WAY harder to fight than an MI. Because:

1) Disheartening Strike is the most damaging at-will in the entire game with its bleeds

2) Vengeace's Pursuit = ITC arguably. (One has longer immunity, but the other also has a CC escape + Daze from distance when Scoundrel + damage + stun when launched from stealth)

3) MI has to get close with Gloaming cut, which gives you an opprotunity, while WK are more distant which is a pain in the ***.

I don't disagree with you, however just to clarify ITC also has CC escape, not just immunity.

But yeah, since the changes to stealth mechanics and the fix to VP (and lets face it, the outright OP nature of DH), WK is definitely better.

mutantdemocracy

xplmao2 wrote: »

2) Vengeace's Pursuit = ITC arguably. (One has longer immunity, but the other also has a CC escape + Daze from distance when Scoundrel + damage + stun when launched from stealth)

Vengeance's Pursuit can be cast while moving(zero cast time), will reset as long as you kill your enemy before using the follow up teleport, and seems to temporarily boost at-will speed upon use of the follow up teleport. None of this is listed on the tool tip.

It's also cool that you can cast the knife throw from stealth(getting CA and crit) without using up your stealth.

ikapamk

Personally, I prefer MI to WK. I run MI scoundrel and, to my feel, it hits faster than WK. Also, I couldn't quite get a feel for WK anyways (rogues have always been melee for me, so I work around that basis).

There are pros and cons to both (DHS and VP for WK, ITC and Skilled Infiltrator for MI), but it all depends on the gameplay you like. I prefer MI, but that's just me.

twilightwatchman

ikapamk wrote: »

Personally, I prefer MI to WK. I run MI scoundrel and, to my feel, it hits faster than WK. Also, I couldn't quite get a feel for WK anyways (rogues have always been melee for me, so I work around that basis).

There are pros and cons to both (DHS and VP for WK, ITC and Skilled Infiltrator for MI), but it all depends on the gameplay you like. I prefer MI, but that's just me.

I play a largely melee WK Scoundrel. Attack speed is identical to MI. In fact there is not much to choose between MI and WK if you go Scoundrel. I like WK because the paragon-specific powers suit my playstyle better than the MI versions.

bakaslam

ITC? CC? CA?

Guys you need to talk my language (or at least my second one- english)..

By the way, if for the Scoundrel the paragon path it seems to be up to us.. How about the other feats path?

kweassa

Traditionally, WK has always been considered second-rate when compared to MI. Fortunately, with the current mod5 changes, I think it is (finally) safe to say that both Paragons are truly on par with each other.

There are some clear strengths and weaknesses to both, though.


Stengths

Master Infiltrator

ITC - although nerfed a little, it is still the most powerful CC escape/prevention/defense tool

being melee in nature, pound-for-pound, generally stronger hitting powers

significantly higher mobility while in stealth

new, redesigned Shoxecution has good tactical value

extreme survivalist

Whisperknife

the "Gun > Knife" logic: being ranged in nature, is a quality of its own

all three paths (Sab, Sco, Exec) synergize more efficiently with WKs

Disheartening Strike: superbly(almost overpoweringly) efficient Paragon at-will power

Hateful Knives - gap closer, CC immunity, good damage, prone... utilitarian daily

can manage many vs one scenarios efficiently

Weaknesses

Master Infiltrator

melee: need to risk getting close for attacks, always need to be close by target,

all major attacks are melee: efficiency may fall against mobile targets

ITC addiction: risks of melee warrant the use of ITC -- flexibility of encounter powers limited

Whisperknife

lack of CC protection: VP has vastly improved, but still not as powerful as ITC

generally weaker, or slower applying ranged damage may not be enough against tough opponents

lack of mobility limits flexibility of class feature use: use of Sneak Attack pretty much mandatory

In general terms, MI is more "well-rounded", WK is more "specialized" IMO. MI has extreme survival capabilities and can escape from the "Oh, HAMSTER..." moments, while it is almost impossible for the Wk to escape from such. Hence, WK relies on cold, calculating risk-reward management, while MI can indulge a little bit more into the moment.

In terms of efficiency and attack capabilities, WK is now superior, hands down. As the "Gun > Knife" logic states, unless you're caught totally off-guard, every fight begins with a mutual encounter, and recognization of hostilities from a distance. As long as you manage the distance, then the one with gun is extremely advantageous, while the one with the knife, is not.

However, in terms of hitting power and continued pressure MI is superior, hence MIs handle DCs better. WKs can handle upto GWFs and GFs -- since even though tough, these enemies don't simply heal up instantly -- but DCs need continuous pressure. If a WK wants to take out a DC then it can't resort to ranged tactics -- it must switch to melee powers like DF and Deft Strike and etc.. in which case it basically becomes a WK trying to imitate a MI melee tactic.

Being melee, MIs take inherent risks -- and against some enemies, this risk may be too much. Particularly HRs. MIs have the ability to kill HRs, but with some serious risks. Same with SW or CWs. Generally the MI TR has the advantage and initiative, but one mistake and a cascade of fatal failures may happen against these powerful classes. In case of WKs, they take out CW, SW and HRs from a safe distance, and almost never lose the initiative.


Last, but not the least, all things considered above, WK generally fights more efficiently and safely from range, but OTOH, MIs holds/takes nodes better. When 2~3 enemies are crowding up a node, only MIs can dance in and out and continuously disrupt node scoring, since they survive better and can take more risks. WK may be a more efficient fighter, but it needs to choose its ground carefully -- thus, compared to MIs it falls behind in pure node contesting. WKs CAN just simply kill the enemy on the node and then take it, but it feels uncomfortable to do it while actually ON the node. WKs would rather prefer using wider spaces -- WKs are after all, ranged in nature. MIs are not. This makes MIs better node contesters/holders.


So in terms of pure combat efficiency, I would now actually rate WKs over MIs. However, for domination purposes MIs still have a slight lead. MIs dance better on the node. WKs have two left feet.