We get it, you think that your time is more valuable than the rest of the group's.
If you want to lag back and take forever so you can pick up trash green drops, then it is you who are not caring about the rest of the people in your group.
You are not entitled to dictate the pace of the entire group simply because you want to fight mobs one at a time or grab every piece of loot.
I'm not going to argue with you on this anymore. Your only point here seems to be to create false equivalences in order to justify antisocial conduct.
Somehow it's everyone else's fault if they want to play group content AS A GROUP while you want to solo the dungeon yourself?
ONCE AGAIN - if you don't want to get stuck with "slowpokes" like me, then don't put yourself in a situation where you might get paired up with me.
But if you choose to pug, you have no right to complain if the rest of the group wants to run the group content differently than you wish to.
If your time is so precious and valuable, then you shouldn't be pugging in the first place.
Scroll up and read my first post where I said if you don't want to run with slow people who want to fight every mob and grab all the green trash then DON'T PUG!
Actually, I think I may well have an answer of why people run off in this game and not in most others. If everyone wants to pick up all of the loot, then no one runs ahead. If you run ahead without waiting for things to die, you miss the loot that was dropped. If you stay back with the group, you kill everything, then pick up your loot, then move on.
In just about every game out there, you want to pick up the loot. But here, a lot of people don't care. The good stuff that you want to buy at high levels requires astral diamonds, not gold--and you can't trade gold for astral diamonds. Unless you buy a lot of Zen, you do need gold for a while at lower levels, most notably to buy a mount, companions, and profession assets. But at some point, you're making gold faster than you have any use for it without really trying, so getting more no longer benefits you.
That's a very unusual way to manage a game economy. It's probably intentionally so, as Cryptic didn't want people to feel like they had to spend all of their time farming mobs for gold. Speed-running one dungeon hundreds of times in a row is at least more variety than some of the farming that goes on in a lot of other games.
Cryptic probably didn't anticipate that setting up the game economy this way would disrupt party combat tactics in dungeons. But it would sure seem that it has. I've long been against endgames that ruin lower level content, but this is a creative way to do it.
The first few times I ran dungeons were all pugs, and sure the first couple times I was aggroing every mob and picking up every drop.
Then on the 3rd or 4th dung i ran I had someone way more skilled, experienced, and geared tell me "Don't worry about all the trash drops and just try to keep up with the group, we will kill it all and you will get your drop."
And that is when I realized that by being the guy in the back I was the one HAMSTER up the flow of combat. I was holding up a good team with my inexperience, and causing the people who were trying to help me through the dungeon an extra heap of work to make it through.
If you want to pick up enchants and HAMSTER gear that is fine, and completely reasonable and easy to do in non dungeon setups.
But if you think that every pug group wants to stumble through dungeons as slowly as possible, then it is you who are dictating the pace for the entire team. And since the people who are ahead are probably more experienceed and will kill most of the dungeon before you even catch up I find it funny that you get so angry about it.
When i started back in beta, as a DC (when healing aggro was absurd, and the clerics were the tanks), i ran with more experienced folks a lot of times, it was easy to get good groups, because healers were very necessary.
I didnt aggro every mob for the lulz.
I just followed their lead. Its not hard to follow or copy someone.
However if the "new player" is in trouble i generally try to help, and point out its mistake so he can learn. Unless hes dying for the 7th time, or is rude, then i dont care anymore, im carrying him/her through the dungeon, thats enough for itself.
If you want to pick up enchants and HAMSTER gear that is fine, and completely reasonable and easy to do in non dungeon setups.
But if you think that every pug group wants to stumble through dungeons as slowly as possible, then it is you who are dictating the pace for the entire team. And since the people who are ahead are probably more experienceed and will kill most of the dungeon before you even catch up I find it funny that you get so angry about it.
I think there's a fundamental philosophical disconnect here. I'll demonstrate:
There is an awful lot here about speed runs. For the OP TL;DR. Speed runs will attempt to stop at strategic locations and fight there and then move to the next localiong. Because people online are generally rude and people interested in the fastest run possible usually will not stop to explain what they are doing the simplest answer usually is to follow the zerg. they will stop at the fight point. Kill everything there and then follow again. This is, overall, very annoying. Butit is the nature of the beast.
The people that farm dungeons during dungeon delves only care about the end result. The loot from bosses. They either salvage that into raw AD or sell it on the AH. Do that multiple times (such as pirate king dungeon) and it becomes a money (AD) grab. It may not seem like people are doing any type of strategy but they really are, as described above by query523.
AD and Zen is what makes the game go round. Not the actual, copper, silver and gold coins. People get enough of it through their own farming and doing dailies. With the AD, you can convert it to zen and buy those shiny things that would normally cost you real world money. Or you use it to fund your alts to buy you shiny leveling gear that lets them zerg through leveling dungeons. It's a round and round endless, vicious cycle.
If you want to take your time through a dungeon, I would recommend finding a guild that suites your play style, make your own group and let people know you want to take it slow, or adapt.
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited November 2014
I think you take it to extremes, I've done both speedy and tour runs, and speed run doesn't mean kicking anyone or leaving anyone or what not. when i used to do pk i have opened every one of the 7 chests and spiders, but it doesn't mean i slowed the
group, only that i wont be high on pain giver....
But a clear all, tour run doesn't mean someone should lag behind and set the pace for the entire group, if a person sees he is behind he should catch up (usually happens when people pm/chat during runs), and not the whole group stand near him/her and wait. (just an example)
If someone want a tour, with a full dungeons clear, then that should be the purpose of the run, and it is really nice to explore the 'secret' areas like court yard in mc, basement/prison in ToS or whole CN with the caves. But it's fun for the few first times and mostly for new players but when you run it for hundreds of times, it rather to be quick and less boring. And yes, the big pulls add a risk factor and make the dungeon a bit harder, what the PvE content totally lacks
There is a middle ground where the slowest keeps up and not trying to solo clear rooms (just grab the aggro and bring it to the group, the group is there to kill, use it), and the fastest wait and check he/she wont die and return/wait if needed.
-- i brought the slowest runs as an example for the opposite of a speed run, but the more runs people do the more they tend to skip if possible. Taking it slow is nice for the first 1-5 for many, after that... you don't want to fight the same mimic all the time for no reason, unless of course on purpose and for added joke/fun.
I think there's a fundamental philosophical disconnect here. I'll demonstrate:
Why do you do dungeons at all?
A good example will be if you have a friend / guildied that need the gear, you will preffer to run 6+ dungeons in a DD time to get more chance on the DD chest. There is no reason to drag it.
Another is if everyone more interested in the boss drop, at older times when a stack of r4 cost nothing but a t2 boss drop will sell for 800k AD, you don't want to waste time on picking every node and go straight for the big moneys.. specially on split runs.
I think there's a fundamental philosophical disconnect here. I'll demonstrate:
Why do you do dungeons at all?
Why do I do dungeons? To gear up.
What do I not do dungeons for? I don't do dungeons to waste 4 other people's time picking up junk drops that I could just as easily get if I ran around in circles in Dread Ring.
Why do I do dungeons? To gear up.
What do I not do dungeons for? I don't do dungeons to waste 4 other people's time picking up junk drops that I could just as easily get if I ran around in circles in Dread Ring.
That's about what I expected someone to say--and a view that I strongly disagree with.
You know why I do dungeons? For fun. It's the same reason I play the game in the first place. If I didn't like doing dungeons, I wouldn't do them. At all. I've got better things to do than spending a bunch of time grinding something stupid in a game I don't even like.
Now, I can understand why someone would think it's boring to rush through the same dungeon a dozen times using the same tactics in the same manner without varying anything. And I can understand why you wouldn't want to take longer than necessary doing that.
But I've got a solution for that, too. You know what's faster than doing a speed run through a dungeon a dozen times? Not doing that dungeon at all. Or perhaps only doing it once or twice, then stopping after you're satisfied that you've seen what there is to see.
Now, you might protest that if you don't grind through something a zillion times, you don't get the best loot. To that I say, so what? What are you going to do with that better gear? Grind through the next dungeon that you also dislike? Why?
Once you get far enough into the endgame that it becomes grindy to the point of being boring, if you keep grinding, it's only going to get worse, not better. Once you don't like it anymore, the sensible thing to do is to stop. Stop playing that character and pick up an alt. Or perhaps quit the game entirely and find another.
One of the coolest things about this game is that there are a lot of little things to find tucked all over the place. Treasure chests, "skill check" boxes, and so forth. You don't have to just mindlessly carry on, killing ten rats because some NPC said to do so. You can look around as you play, and find little bonuses if you keep your eyes peeled. They're not terribly important, of course; maybe you pick up a rank 2 enchantment or a few crafting materials. But it's cool to be able to say, hey, I just found something.
I did Throne of Idris again today with a different group. Toward the bottom right area of the map, we took the alternate path that goes by the brewmaster's keg and has some lore there. It was cool to find that it was there--and that there is an alternate path.
Unfortunately, "we" didn't mean my entire group. Only four members went. The fifth tried to follow the marked path. Alone. Trying to solo the mobs. He took a long time, then died and ran back. Then died again. Once we were ready for the final boss, he was still trying to press through along the marked path. Finally, he gave up and left the group. It's sad that he didn't seem to realize that you don't have to just follow the marked path.
If you're focused on rushing to the finish as fast as you can, you miss out on that. Maybe you do get better loot faster that way. But you miss the point of playing the entire game in the first place: to have fun.
Now, there are a relative handful of people who find speed runs fun for their own sake, and not for the sake of loot. That people do speed runs of games like Super Mario World, where there is no loot to accumulate, is ample proof of this. I wouldn't want to deny such people the opportunity to do speed runs here. But that's a small niche, and not something that most gamers are interested in.
So personally, I lean toward an approach of, let's kill everything and see what there is to see. Or maybe not everything, but lets at least go off the marked path some. Not everyone shares that enthusiasm, and if it's clear that a group just wants to get to the finish, I won't go pull unnecessary mobs off to the sides.
But I draw the line at doing dungeons solely for loot. The point of doing dungeons, like playing the game in the first place, should be for fun. If you don't think it's fun, then you're playing the wrong game.
But I draw the line at doing dungeons solely for loot. The point of doing dungeons, like playing the game in the first place, should be for fun. If you don't think it's fun, then you're playing the wrong game.
That is fine that you play dungeons for fun. Please refrain from telling other people how to play the game.
Most people also find PROGRESSION fun, as it is what all RPG games are based on. Getting better gear is what this genre is about.
It isn't my fault that to get better gear I can't just run through a dungeon one time. Instead it is RNG gated and you have to run several runs. Sometimes you have to run the same content over and over, and if it is alright with you , I would like to go through the dungeon as fast as I can on the tenth or twentieth or thirtieth run.
If you think that playing the same content 30 times or more is fun you are welcome to it, but don't tell me to go play another game because I like to have some gear progression. I already said not to pug. I don't pug. You are welcome to it though. But I draw the line at doing dungeons slowly and searching every node and crevice after I've run the dungeon a few times.
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Dear OP.
I'm sorry you had a bad run.
Most people are stupid, you should expect them to act stupidly.
There is no reason for people to act the way your described except gross incompetence.
Sometimes this happens. Just go zerker mode and kill everything.
Comments
If you want to lag back and take forever so you can pick up trash green drops, then it is you who are not caring about the rest of the people in your group.
You are not entitled to dictate the pace of the entire group simply because you want to fight mobs one at a time or grab every piece of loot.
Somehow it's everyone else's fault if they want to play group content AS A GROUP while you want to solo the dungeon yourself?
ONCE AGAIN - if you don't want to get stuck with "slowpokes" like me, then don't put yourself in a situation where you might get paired up with me.
But if you choose to pug, you have no right to complain if the rest of the group wants to run the group content differently than you wish to.
If your time is so precious and valuable, then you shouldn't be pugging in the first place.
Scroll up and read my first post where I said if you don't want to run with slow people who want to fight every mob and grab all the green trash then DON'T PUG!
In just about every game out there, you want to pick up the loot. But here, a lot of people don't care. The good stuff that you want to buy at high levels requires astral diamonds, not gold--and you can't trade gold for astral diamonds. Unless you buy a lot of Zen, you do need gold for a while at lower levels, most notably to buy a mount, companions, and profession assets. But at some point, you're making gold faster than you have any use for it without really trying, so getting more no longer benefits you.
That's a very unusual way to manage a game economy. It's probably intentionally so, as Cryptic didn't want people to feel like they had to spend all of their time farming mobs for gold. Speed-running one dungeon hundreds of times in a row is at least more variety than some of the farming that goes on in a lot of other games.
Cryptic probably didn't anticipate that setting up the game economy this way would disrupt party combat tactics in dungeons. But it would sure seem that it has. I've long been against endgames that ruin lower level content, but this is a creative way to do it.
Quaternion from the previous forum
Then on the 3rd or 4th dung i ran I had someone way more skilled, experienced, and geared tell me "Don't worry about all the trash drops and just try to keep up with the group, we will kill it all and you will get your drop."
And that is when I realized that by being the guy in the back I was the one HAMSTER up the flow of combat. I was holding up a good team with my inexperience, and causing the people who were trying to help me through the dungeon an extra heap of work to make it through.
If you want to pick up enchants and HAMSTER gear that is fine, and completely reasonable and easy to do in non dungeon setups.
But if you think that every pug group wants to stumble through dungeons as slowly as possible, then it is you who are dictating the pace for the entire team. And since the people who are ahead are probably more experienceed and will kill most of the dungeon before you even catch up I find it funny that you get so angry about it.
I didnt aggro every mob for the lulz.
I just followed their lead. Its not hard to follow or copy someone.
However if the "new player" is in trouble i generally try to help, and point out its mistake so he can learn. Unless hes dying for the 7th time, or is rude, then i dont care anymore, im carrying him/her through the dungeon, thats enough for itself.
I think there's a fundamental philosophical disconnect here. I'll demonstrate:
Why do you do dungeons at all?
Quaternion from the previous forum
AD and Zen is what makes the game go round. Not the actual, copper, silver and gold coins. People get enough of it through their own farming and doing dailies. With the AD, you can convert it to zen and buy those shiny things that would normally cost you real world money. Or you use it to fund your alts to buy you shiny leveling gear that lets them zerg through leveling dungeons. It's a round and round endless, vicious cycle.
If you want to take your time through a dungeon, I would recommend finding a guild that suites your play style, make your own group and let people know you want to take it slow, or adapt.
group, only that i wont be high on pain giver....
But a clear all, tour run doesn't mean someone should lag behind and set the pace for the entire group, if a person sees he is behind he should catch up (usually happens when people pm/chat during runs), and not the whole group stand near him/her and wait. (just an example)
If someone want a tour, with a full dungeons clear, then that should be the purpose of the run, and it is really nice to explore the 'secret' areas like court yard in mc, basement/prison in ToS or whole CN with the caves. But it's fun for the few first times and mostly for new players but when you run it for hundreds of times, it rather to be quick and less boring. And yes, the big pulls add a risk factor and make the dungeon a bit harder, what the PvE content totally lacks
There is a middle ground where the slowest keeps up and not trying to solo clear rooms (just grab the aggro and bring it to the group, the group is there to kill, use it), and the fastest wait and check he/she wont die and return/wait if needed.
-- i brought the slowest runs as an example for the opposite of a speed run, but the more runs people do the more they tend to skip if possible. Taking it slow is nice for the first 1-5 for many, after that... you don't want to fight the same mimic all the time for no reason, unless of course on purpose and for added joke/fun.
A good example will be if you have a friend / guildied that need the gear, you will preffer to run 6+ dungeons in a DD time to get more chance on the DD chest. There is no reason to drag it.
Another is if everyone more interested in the boss drop, at older times when a stack of r4 cost nothing but a t2 boss drop will sell for 800k AD, you don't want to waste time on picking every node and go straight for the big moneys.. specially on split runs.
What do I not do dungeons for? I don't do dungeons to waste 4 other people's time picking up junk drops that I could just as easily get if I ran around in circles in Dread Ring.
That's about what I expected someone to say--and a view that I strongly disagree with.
You know why I do dungeons? For fun. It's the same reason I play the game in the first place. If I didn't like doing dungeons, I wouldn't do them. At all. I've got better things to do than spending a bunch of time grinding something stupid in a game I don't even like.
Now, I can understand why someone would think it's boring to rush through the same dungeon a dozen times using the same tactics in the same manner without varying anything. And I can understand why you wouldn't want to take longer than necessary doing that.
But I've got a solution for that, too. You know what's faster than doing a speed run through a dungeon a dozen times? Not doing that dungeon at all. Or perhaps only doing it once or twice, then stopping after you're satisfied that you've seen what there is to see.
Now, you might protest that if you don't grind through something a zillion times, you don't get the best loot. To that I say, so what? What are you going to do with that better gear? Grind through the next dungeon that you also dislike? Why?
Once you get far enough into the endgame that it becomes grindy to the point of being boring, if you keep grinding, it's only going to get worse, not better. Once you don't like it anymore, the sensible thing to do is to stop. Stop playing that character and pick up an alt. Or perhaps quit the game entirely and find another.
One of the coolest things about this game is that there are a lot of little things to find tucked all over the place. Treasure chests, "skill check" boxes, and so forth. You don't have to just mindlessly carry on, killing ten rats because some NPC said to do so. You can look around as you play, and find little bonuses if you keep your eyes peeled. They're not terribly important, of course; maybe you pick up a rank 2 enchantment or a few crafting materials. But it's cool to be able to say, hey, I just found something.
I did Throne of Idris again today with a different group. Toward the bottom right area of the map, we took the alternate path that goes by the brewmaster's keg and has some lore there. It was cool to find that it was there--and that there is an alternate path.
Unfortunately, "we" didn't mean my entire group. Only four members went. The fifth tried to follow the marked path. Alone. Trying to solo the mobs. He took a long time, then died and ran back. Then died again. Once we were ready for the final boss, he was still trying to press through along the marked path. Finally, he gave up and left the group. It's sad that he didn't seem to realize that you don't have to just follow the marked path.
If you're focused on rushing to the finish as fast as you can, you miss out on that. Maybe you do get better loot faster that way. But you miss the point of playing the entire game in the first place: to have fun.
Now, there are a relative handful of people who find speed runs fun for their own sake, and not for the sake of loot. That people do speed runs of games like Super Mario World, where there is no loot to accumulate, is ample proof of this. I wouldn't want to deny such people the opportunity to do speed runs here. But that's a small niche, and not something that most gamers are interested in.
So personally, I lean toward an approach of, let's kill everything and see what there is to see. Or maybe not everything, but lets at least go off the marked path some. Not everyone shares that enthusiasm, and if it's clear that a group just wants to get to the finish, I won't go pull unnecessary mobs off to the sides.
But I draw the line at doing dungeons solely for loot. The point of doing dungeons, like playing the game in the first place, should be for fun. If you don't think it's fun, then you're playing the wrong game.
Quaternion from the previous forum
That is fine that you play dungeons for fun. Please refrain from telling other people how to play the game.
Most people also find PROGRESSION fun, as it is what all RPG games are based on. Getting better gear is what this genre is about.
It isn't my fault that to get better gear I can't just run through a dungeon one time. Instead it is RNG gated and you have to run several runs. Sometimes you have to run the same content over and over, and if it is alright with you , I would like to go through the dungeon as fast as I can on the tenth or twentieth or thirtieth run.
If you think that playing the same content 30 times or more is fun you are welcome to it, but don't tell me to go play another game because I like to have some gear progression. I already said not to pug. I don't pug. You are welcome to it though. But I draw the line at doing dungeons slowly and searching every node and crevice after I've run the dungeon a few times.
I'm sorry you had a bad run.
Most people are stupid, you should expect them to act stupidly.
There is no reason for people to act the way your described except gross incompetence.
Sometimes this happens. Just go zerker mode and kill everything.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know