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This "TR Shock"...
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
The first side, would be that people are not used to seeing TRs kill their adversaries so quickly and deterministically. At least, those that were not playing since before mod2, only remembers the TRs as pesky, hard to kill, permanently invisible and low-damage foes that would wither them down to death, but not kill so fast and decisively.
After the continued nerfs to damage, a TR would have trouble wittling down opponents even with quite a superiority in gear level -- particularly opponents with strong defense, large HP pool, or very strong attack would give the TRs some trouble. Domination is not 1vs1, and in Domination environment, a TR's attack options are limited since he needs to "save" some of his options for quick exits/escapes. Hence, even when relatively undergeared a class like the HR would usually give the TR a lot of trouble, and a class like the CW would plain wreck havoc on the very existence of the TR as even superior geared TRs would just melt in seconds.
Hence, like said, people aren't used to seeing TRs kill enemies with such decisive force. So they think there's a problem with it. But I implore you -- think about it. Think about as if it was any other class.
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared GWF easily slaughtering undergeared PuG players?
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared CW permafreeze a PuG target to death within seconds?
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared HR just suck every drop of life from the average PuG?
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared GF two~three shot a PuG level enemy?
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared DC standing unbreakeable despite being attacked by hordes of PuGs?
So then, why is it so surprising for some people to see TRs with over 17~18k GS dropping a PuG CW or HR within seconds? During the few days after release, I've been racking up kills like crazy, sure. But then again I've been playing this a long time, and upgraded my gear throughout the many months, so I'm probably much better geared than your average 22~25k HP PuG level player with 9~11k GS maybe.
Besides, I've also made excellent use of the preview server, and got me a headstart in studying and discovering new builds and tactics. So I outgear and outskill as well as outexperience them. So, when your 23k CW with 10k GS meets me, yes, he will drop in seconds. Before, I used to have to do that lame perma-shi* -- out of necessity, mind you -- and then fling fling fling daggers and little by little they would start dying.
Oh sure, I'd win of course, in maybe 2~3 minutes spent against that one guy. Any other class with as much superiority in gear level or skill level would simply destroy his opponent within seconds. Not the old TRs, no. We couldn't do that. Now we can -- and that upsets some people. But are those people upset by the fact that a GWF or a GF or a CW or a HR with superior gear, skill, experience can do the same? For some reason, they are not.
That is the truth of this whole "TR Shock" uproar we're seeing. Like said, people are used to seeing the flick flick hit effects of CoS from stealth tickling them for small bits of HP, and the woosh~ woosh~ sound of DF attempts as they dance round and round around the node.
They are NOT used to seeing those seemingly "weak damaged TRs" now hitting hard and fast. They expect the long, winded fight where the TR tries run away and away and hit a few times during this merry-go-round in the node. They don't expect the TR would now be able to hurt them as much as they can hurt the TR.
...
Now granted, some powers still need fixing. But after the SoD patch I've been observing how the other, low-level PuG TRs were doing against their own, same level players... and it turns out, I don't see anything special. Lowbies are still lowbies.
The only difference I do see, is that TRs that have higher base skill level or gear level, will now make as much kills as any GWF or CW player in the team. The relativel power difference between "higher level" and "lower level" is now very distinctly pronounced even for TRs.
(ps) If some people think TRs are "OP" -- lol, just see what happens when someone brings in a 2-man duo premade of a DPS DC and a healtank DC.
(ps2) the above is actually a direct-counter to TR-heavy temas... except currently as it is, the multi-DC teams are simply counter to everything.
After the continued nerfs to damage, a TR would have trouble wittling down opponents even with quite a superiority in gear level -- particularly opponents with strong defense, large HP pool, or very strong attack would give the TRs some trouble. Domination is not 1vs1, and in Domination environment, a TR's attack options are limited since he needs to "save" some of his options for quick exits/escapes. Hence, even when relatively undergeared a class like the HR would usually give the TR a lot of trouble, and a class like the CW would plain wreck havoc on the very existence of the TR as even superior geared TRs would just melt in seconds.
Hence, like said, people aren't used to seeing TRs kill enemies with such decisive force. So they think there's a problem with it. But I implore you -- think about it. Think about as if it was any other class.
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared GWF easily slaughtering undergeared PuG players?
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared CW permafreeze a PuG target to death within seconds?
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared HR just suck every drop of life from the average PuG?
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared GF two~three shot a PuG level enemy?
■ Is it really surprising to see a superior geared DC standing unbreakeable despite being attacked by hordes of PuGs?
So then, why is it so surprising for some people to see TRs with over 17~18k GS dropping a PuG CW or HR within seconds? During the few days after release, I've been racking up kills like crazy, sure. But then again I've been playing this a long time, and upgraded my gear throughout the many months, so I'm probably much better geared than your average 22~25k HP PuG level player with 9~11k GS maybe.
Besides, I've also made excellent use of the preview server, and got me a headstart in studying and discovering new builds and tactics. So I outgear and outskill as well as outexperience them. So, when your 23k CW with 10k GS meets me, yes, he will drop in seconds. Before, I used to have to do that lame perma-shi* -- out of necessity, mind you -- and then fling fling fling daggers and little by little they would start dying.
Oh sure, I'd win of course, in maybe 2~3 minutes spent against that one guy. Any other class with as much superiority in gear level or skill level would simply destroy his opponent within seconds. Not the old TRs, no. We couldn't do that. Now we can -- and that upsets some people. But are those people upset by the fact that a GWF or a GF or a CW or a HR with superior gear, skill, experience can do the same? For some reason, they are not.
That is the truth of this whole "TR Shock" uproar we're seeing. Like said, people are used to seeing the flick flick hit effects of CoS from stealth tickling them for small bits of HP, and the woosh~ woosh~ sound of DF attempts as they dance round and round around the node.
They are NOT used to seeing those seemingly "weak damaged TRs" now hitting hard and fast. They expect the long, winded fight where the TR tries run away and away and hit a few times during this merry-go-round in the node. They don't expect the TR would now be able to hurt them as much as they can hurt the TR.
...
Now granted, some powers still need fixing. But after the SoD patch I've been observing how the other, low-level PuG TRs were doing against their own, same level players... and it turns out, I don't see anything special. Lowbies are still lowbies.
The only difference I do see, is that TRs that have higher base skill level or gear level, will now make as much kills as any GWF or CW player in the team. The relativel power difference between "higher level" and "lower level" is now very distinctly pronounced even for TRs.
(ps) If some people think TRs are "OP" -- lol, just see what happens when someone brings in a 2-man duo premade of a DPS DC and a healtank DC.
(ps2) the above is actually a direct-counter to TR-heavy temas... except currently as it is, the multi-DC teams are simply counter to everything.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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Comments
No matter what you say or how you argue the Trs has the ability non other posses - being able to avoid getting killed infinite by going invisible..
The hide ability makes TRs that learn to (ab)use that fact to kill and never be killed stands out like a sore thumb to everybody else.
With new loooooong dodge extra movement and to say the least boost in damage puts Trs in a position no other class can match.
The ability to avoid damage must stand in contrast to the ability to deal damage and thats why they changed gwfs as they did.
Right now the balance is way out of line when it comes to doing avoiding dam for the Tr class.
Dc is also way out of line but 2 wrongs sure dont make it better..
As long as you can become immortal at will due to hide without sacrificing being able to dish out the damage you are now you can argue until you become blue in your face its still going to make people qq until its fixed.....
And it's very true that some builds and classes are too hard to beat even with permastealth and high GS advantage.
WTB Class Reroll please
To non TRs, it all looks pretty stealthy. They're all pretty elusive, some just hit harder.
There's more truth to what you have said than you might realize. Most average PvP players can't tell the difference between a perma, a semi-perma, or even a combat TR.
In the end, to them, it's always "a TR that never comes out of stealth killed me with ridiculous damage".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Not only are they all perma sabs, but they are also all executioners and all scoundrel and they have freaking grenades and machine guns and sharp pointy sticks. Least that is what I hear, in fact some kill you when you think about joining a PvP match even before you join and they stun everyone on your friends list too.
I'd imagine a scoundrel wouldn't even need stealth to make a complete fool out of a SW. Then again, a lot makes a fool out of them.
A GWF's biggest enemy are dodges and TRs basically got double now.
I'm a 14k GS TR with around 5k power, I think I'm more or less a normal TR, not a fresh 60 but not a monster TR at all either, and I don't see my damage being out of whack compared to other classes.
I'm just worried that once again, because of pvp, we PVE trs get the short straw again.
Good Trs always been putting up a good fight it just took them longer to kill and in worst case scenario they had to move away from the node for some time only to get rigth back on it when time was right.....
And its a differance between putting up a good fight and slaughtering hole other pug teams whithout them being able to even hit you .....
I rarely see any tanks in random teams these days. It's always at least two TRs and 1-2 HRs. Because those classes got ridiculously OPed regardless of any so-called fixes and now bloom in PvP, slaughtering everyone in sight.
In terms of pve, there is no good fight. Monsters put up no fight now....
My GF and GWF put up a fight, my TR just assassinates everything now and vanishes to claim more unwary prey.
A fomorian warrior is about the only thing that tried to take a swing at me before dropping.
So it is like a CW or SW or HR but has to get in closer to the target you are saying?
No its like cw, sw or hr just that the target just died without knowing why and never had a chanse to retaliate and every other enemys be it mobs or players never got a chanse to hit back because the tr vanished same sec as target died .......
HR can't pounce a mob and perma control them and the SW only has a bugged TT and DT to depend on for DPS.
Start dropping smoke bombs from stealth. You'll see a difference.
Same here. While the TR is much improved and no worthy to bring to a dungeon it is nothing like some are claiming and I think it is the shock of seeing TR actually not suck that has people bothered. My scoundrel is very competitive in damage in groups now but has lower single target damage in shores on the boss than does the SW/CW/HR/GWF, but I don't mind at all as it is better overall than my old executioner was. And most important it is absolutely a blast to play!
Is it surprising to see a 13k TR and an 11k TR get 15 kills and be top of scoreboard against a team that was all over 15k including an 18k GWF and a 17.5k HR?
It is happening all day long. This isn't good geared TRs that are killing equally geared players.
This is low geared TRs taking out whole teams that have better GS than themselves.
Was this with the bugged SoD or after? Also realize the class has been redesigned and people will not be used to playing against this TR as they were the other.
I know that i wear profound armor at times and my gsm goes as low as 13000.. at other times i wear draconic or black ice and my score goes to 17000. choice of rings also matters.... a gear score past 13000.. means very little unless one person hs
22,000 hp vs another player with 42,000 hp+
Is there an Ignore button on here... so you don't have to see any post by a person [like above]?
I mean a troll post like this will have Rogues nerfed into deletion from Neverwinter... where's the Moderation of this type of HAMSTER post?
It has tints of addressing something people may be feeling [and especially very sensitive to] but it's filled with so many obvious traps... it's reads like nothing more than another Trollmark card.
Rogues came out of the gate in Mod 5 borked by the devs NOT the players...
a lot of players had no clue what the new feats would do [and 95% probably still don't] so many just played what they were dealt and not exploiting anything.
Thursday insta-fix [which on SoD was the correct call] on Rogues borked them again... breaking stuff that wasn't glitched originally.
It seems testing for "re-works" for classes is done on the live server... so before you raise your "nerfforks" & torches and scream "NERF {insert class here}" give the devs a chance to make some adjustments to either the new Feats/Powers and/or the effect it has on the other classes when facing these REWORKED classes
... instead of nuking a class because the masses came crying "but they killed me weally, weally, weally fast and it hurt my woodle fweelings... sob... sob".
See what this type of post does... even my response has a troll trap in it.
The problem are not BiS TRs. But the fact i've seen 14-15k TRs going 20-1 20-0 in domination.
Cause the problem is not DPS which would be fine, but the fact they can still avoid damage 90% of the time or more due to a unique kit of tools and stealth being still almost permanent. It does not matter the term you use. The result is always that PvP-specced TRs are always either in stealth, or immune, or out of reach, or a mix of the above.
Every class have windows of vulnerability you can use to hit them and deal damage.
TRs have none or almost none. In a 1v1 a TR starts from stealth, DPS you, go immune or dazes you, recover stealth, double roll away into stealth again and then uses the insane base speed movement to out-run any other class, avoid being found till their CDs are over and they can DPS again.
The point is they got DPS buffed but at the same time even improved the tools that allow a TR to prevent you from doing shlt against them. All it takes now is to not really mess up your timing when repeating your rotation.
This is the truth behind the "TR shock".
We, devs included, agreed that DPS got to come back to the class but the mechanics that allowed TRs to be out of reach the whole fight got to be changed.
Instead we have the same shltty mechanics slightly changed, plus strong damage over time now.
I have 42k GWF with PBI set, 36% deflect, around 47% DR with feats and experienc ein fighting TRs in the past modules. Never got a problem cause the low damage allowed you to hunt them and, if you were good, eventually catch them. If they were more geared/ skilled i was beaten but it was fair usually cause you got time to learn their movement and come up with a counter.
Now you have the same absurd, lag friendly elusivity, with enough damage to take down the opponent fast AT SAME GS LEVEL.
Fair combat is "you attack, i can dodge, then i attack, you can dodge".
Not "i attack from stealth, you can't do shlt. Then i'm immune/ stealth/ you dazed/ out of reach. Then my turn again, sorry".
Pretty much. Fun thing is it's like this with every new module. With module 4 we got shiny new CWs doing the same. And saying the class was fine.
Now it's TRs turn.
Combat HRs are always strong so they don't really care.
.
You should meet this TR named Sicarius. Then you'll probably change your mind (and learn a thing or two about good TRs as well)
Many will struggle with the class's new tactical feel. Some will fall into the majority of the fold where the class performance is acceptable and fun even if it isn't outstanding. A few will master it and be roving engines of destruction topped only by the SW.
This is the case with all classes though, but we just got so used to the TR being so one dimensional and mindless to play that when variety got thrown in and tactics now mattered there was a collective "how does this work" moment.
The TR is in a good spot for PvE right now except for the SoD troubles. The output so will see is now "results may vary" just the same as every other class.
With these changes we are seeing a greater shift towards balance than before. What needs to happen now is to fix the GWF and the HR for PvE and it will be the closest to optimal we have seen in awhile
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Because people who form parties look closely at how all the classes perform and specifically ask for some classes when doing runs.
So if your class is not "optimal", then it's not required.
For example, with GWF now sucking at DPS, people would ask for CWs/ SWs to have DPS, and not for a destroyer. Cause the faster the better.
In premade PvP it's usually guild vs guild so you already know PvP toons have specific builds. Obviously some classes are stronger for a period of time, but also personal skills come into play, and teamwork. So in PvP it's less clear.
In PvE however, if your class is not good like GWF now or module3-4 TR for DPS, you're discarded and never invited. Cause no matter if the team could clear the dungeon with you in their group. With a better class they would clear it faster.