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Deflect and Crowd Control
jeffmwillson
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 116 Arc User
I am posting this because I feel it is a bug. I have posted this on the bug forums but have opened this thread for discussion on the topic between players. I have also posted this on the CW forum but want open discussion from all classes as other classes control powers are also suffering from this. This post mostly talks about CW encounters but feel free to add if any other class is effected by this. If the encounter that is putting crowd control on a target is deflected, the crowd control is reduced by the deflection amount. This is apparent with repel for control wizards and the Devs have stated in the past that this should be fixed so that the repel strength is not reduced by deflection. This has still not been fixed, a deflected repel still doesnt push as far as it should. Also with control wizards when freezing a target if the encounter or at will that adds the last stack of chill is deflected the freeze time is greatly reduced. This hurts control wizards alot. On HRs with 65% deflect they are being frozen for less then a quarter of a second. There is not even enough time to cast an encounter before the freeze is removed. I can understand wanting more control to be in the oppressor path but this reduction on other paths makes freezing worthless. I feel that a control wizard should be able to freeze a target and at least have the time for one encounter even on the DPS paths. Chilling presense is almost useless unless this is changed. If you feel deflect should work this way or needs to be changed please leave your comments
Post edited by jeffmwillson on
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Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
For most of cases otherwise - you got frozen and killed in 1 rotation. I do know this from HRs perspective very well. You can not deflect if frozen - so deflecting of frozen stack and 1/2 of it's duration is correct. This does not allow CW to kill in 1 rotation at least.
What ever class you are playing - one rotation is terrible thing since there is nothing you can do about it. Same was GWF roar before.
Yet advice - for those who don't want to be stuck frozen by CWs all the time - stack control resist. For CW - stack control strength. It does work and does make a difference.
Edit : HR with 65% deflect is not easy to reach - it is pure defensive build. Yet you expect to kill defensive build as easy as damage one really?
Thank god for deflect and tenacity.
Mainly what you are talking about is due to tenacity and companions that resist control effects. (also enchantments)
If you want more control bonus, I suggest getting artifacts + companions that have control bonuses.
It is not ok for you to come here and try to petition to have the game changed just so you feel you have a better advantage over people.
Control resists, and deflection are perfectly ok as is.
Try doing test on people with tenacity + repel vs people without tenacity + repel.
Then do another test with zero tenacity and high deflection + zero tenacity + low deflection.
I will help you test if you like.
GWF having more control? Lol? Only prone doesn't get reduced on deflect and GWF doesn't have any prones xcept for dailies.
Wow ! Really? How about your way of doing things ? Disruptive , boar charge ,DoT DoT DoT , DEAD ? Is that really different from what you just described? Is that even remotely close to 2 rotations? We now know man, you are posting out of pure spite for CWs . Nothing more .
IF a stat should weaken controls , thats CONTROL RESIST . Why? Because for that particular stat , every class can build up to the same amount . This is not the case with deflection Which yet again shows us that its not that you care about others being 1-rotated (I dont know where you got this idea actually...) rather than keeping your class in the spotlight .
You kinda missed the point in what Zengiah said . Your FLS stuns for longer periods than any of the CW encounters (seriously its 3secs compared to what seems to be 1.5 seconds). What we are looking into ,in this thread ,is (for example ) the reason you dont get to deliver a successful IBS after stunning an HR -since his deflection has already set him free from your stun .
Lets make a side note here . This community keeps repeating that 1 of the reasons CWs dont need to be as tanky as other classes , is because we have control as a defense mechanism . But now you are defending a fact that falsely makes our controls less efficient(to the point of non-existent when it comes to TR/HR/mod5 GWF - actually all 5 classes can build quite a lot compared to the 2 target dummies -CWs and SWs ofc).
Once again it is obvious that people arent after balance ,rather than "their balance" . People defending ideas like this is what led this game to its current state.
When a GWF stuns me, it feels like forever. When I stun the GWF I can barly see it before its over. It should be the other way arround since Im the Control Wizard.
GF has prones and that is 100% better than a 0.5 sec stun. So GF has way more and better control than a CW.
TR can daze me constantly.
is there any CW that can keep topic? are we talking here about HRs or CW control and deflect? Is there any reasonable case where CW will stop crying about we have so few control that we can not kill everyone? do you need magic button maybe?
BTW Disruptive and Boars do respect now Control resist and control strength. I always sad that 1 rotation is no good. Not for HR nor CW. Yet you ask to have 0 chance for any class to avoid CWs control - leaving them defenseless. This is what Im against. Same story as it was with GWF and Roar back in the days, even same exact arguments from CWs now.
Want more control strength - use artifacts and stats.
Actually. I have tested on PTR. with 3 legendary artifacts for control bonus. Corrupt set control bonus. MAX wis build. Orb of imposition (not in oppressor tree) and all the boons for control resist available even 10% control from last boon in mod4. It still is deflected and less then a quarter of a second freeze. Im not petitioning so I have an advantage. I am advocating for all control in the game not just control wizards. Hence why I opened it up for discussion to other classes. Companions can not be used in PVP domination. Im not saying I should be able to control without going in the oppressor tree to get a full rotation off. I am saying I want to be able to freeze and at least use one encounter with this set up. which isn't possible. Also, tenacity had nothing to do with my testing. The HR I was testing on had PVE gear no tenacity, only what is given without adding by equipment. Guess I should of been more clear.
Same Un-educated argument. want more control strength - use artifacts and stats..... In the previous post I stated I have maxed my control bonus as much as possible in the game. cant get any more. 3 legendary artifacts for control bonus. max wisdom. set bonus from corrupt. all boons for control resist available mod4 (so 1 for 10%) and still don't even freeze long enough to get ONE encounter cast due to deflect. Now what? spec oppressor you might say, then I hit like a wet noodle. Its not about having the best control and DPS. Its about having some control when there is none at all.
1st of all my dear friend , you have been on par with mod3-ROAR GWFs for 2 modules now,as an HR so go preach somewhere else.
2nd my dear friend, I am the one that is on topic here , while you 're probably here for the flame ,and to defend a mechanic that favors your class the most (along with TRs ).Thats why 1 of us suggests something , while the other one hands out insults like "u cry"
3rd A class that heals to full by 1-rotating the ACTUAL DEFENSELESS CLASS that has just sent them all they had , DPS-wise, cant call my post a crier one ,when my points are obviously valid (thus at least 1 person jumped in to reply to your ...yeah.."constructive unbiased post")
4th my ... yeah . "FRIEND", I beg of you to quote me on the part that I said that I want CWs to have unavoidable controls.
The fact that you say you are after class balance , doesnt mean that you practice what you preach . At least not with what you have posted in this thread . If all the classes had the same deflect , I would consider what you are saying ,but even then , that would mean the end of controls in pvp . Alternatively, I would love to see things stay as is , with deflect resisting controls , but this time your class gets to have the same amount of deflect "those crying CWs" have. How about it?
Defense would be similarly OP, since some classes can stack lots of it, and others can't. But they added a stat called Armor Pen to allow people to build there characters to counter high Defense targets. Unfortunately there is no way to counter a high Deflect target because there is no stat you can stack to lower a targets Deflect chance. They should either remove CC reduction from Deflect to make it less powerful to classes that can stack it. Or allow Armor Pen to reduce Defense AND Deflection. So that classes that can't stack Deflect can at least gear themselves to effectively counter classes that do.
I also have hot cocoa if anyone wants to share?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
^^^^
+1.totally agree.A secret reason of the HRs dominance in pvp is their high deflect that makes them almost cc immune ALL the time.While other classes must use encounter.ability to evade cc, HRs are cc proof by default.
And in mod5 TRs will bring the same roblem.With 2 of their stats offering deflect(charisma and buffed dex bonus) ,plus dodges ,they will be near impossible to cc.
"Deflect as a defensive stat is OP in pvp. I think most people will agree with that. A large reason why is because it reduces CC by half when it procs. Combine that with the fact that some classes can stack it to 50% or higher, while other classes have no way to raise it besides gear and boons, ending up with 5-10% deflect, and you have a stat that's very powerful, but only useful to a few classes.
Defense would be similarly OP, since some classes can stack lots of it, and others can't. But they added a stat called Armor Pen to allow people to build there characters to counter high Defense targets. Unfortunately there is no way to counter a high Deflect target because there is no stat you can stack to lower a targets Deflect chance. They should either remove CC reduction from Deflect to make it less powerful to classes that can stack it. Or allow Armor Pen to reduce Defense AND Deflection. So that classes that can't stack Deflect can at least gear themselves to effectively counter classes that do. "
Couldn't say it better.
Not for Cryptic's logic.
This. / thread
+1 / 10 char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
That is actually a very good point, it definitely would make sense, but they couldn't let it be effected by critical severity otherwise people with potions and pvorpal would be able to CC targets for near 3x longer on its own.
if criting a CC would work, they would have to cap it at 50% increase cc strength, like deflect is normally capped at 50% cc mitigation
but otherwise its a very good idea, or just remove deflecting CC in the first place,
but its a good plan B
true, it shouldnt! This will get fix in like 2 years from now...
Well, i would agree if the most affected classes (TR and HR) got low survivability. But what you have now is:
TR semi-perma: between stealth on-and-off node, roll immunity and ITC you have a very small window to actually catch him. His mobility makes impossible to land IBS directly. So you manage to catch him with FLS and think "it's my turn now" aaaand...he rolls away half a second later just to return to stealth, cause he deflected your stun.
HR: the HR dodges and self-heals himself, you can burst him through let's say FLS-TD-IBS. You catch him through his dodges, marauder escape and forest ghost with your FLS, and think "now let's make your HP drop with a good burst" aaaand...the HR is free after half a second making your FLS or TD useless.
So these are classes who require a burst CC combo to be dealt with. And their high deflection pretty much makes it a roulette: if you're lucky, you can have your stun undeflected. If you're unlucky, you can do shlt to them while they proceed to slowly (TR) or rapidly (HR) eat through your HPs.
And considering you can usually pile up 20% tenacity+10% halfling racial= 30% less duration. Then it's deflected by another 50% or more, and there you have pretty much no CC duration at all. Add perhaps a Oghma token artifact just in case they get unlucky and one stun is not deflected. On classes with pretty much the most survivability in PvP.
This is from a GWF point of view, it's just a bit weird to see our prones all removed and the new stun being pretty much uneffective on all these high deflect halfling HRs and TRs, making the one and only DPS combo (CC+IBS) unreliable at all.
That's another reason why intimidation sentinels are the only viable way in PvP for GWFs right now. Cause change after change the class was stripped of everything else.
you should deflect while proned.