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Completely bias post about issues with the new M5 TR gear from a PvE perspective
brilliantcomrade
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 45
So as many experienced players know there is a 24% "cap" for armor pen in regards to the PvE content.
This translates to around 2550 points in armor penetration.
Now, having a point where a stat is no longer "useful" can of course raise some concerns when one goes over the "cap".
That is exactly what is occurring (or about to occur) for end game PvE TRs, due to the new gear that is coming out.
First lets clarify this is for the NEW content that will become the END GAME which means it will be hard content and people will need to be well geared, so most likely people who will be going into the new content will have most of the boons, rank 7+ enchantments, augment companion, purple artifacts, gemmed shirts/pants and artifact main hand.
Now what happens when you are at the end game before new content comes out is you normally have your stats well optimized, this means for many TRs we have an artifact or 2 and our shirt/pants giving us armor pen so that we are just kissing that armor pen cap however recently (mod 4) some of us started to go over this cap due to the new weapons so we improvised, we removed armor pen where we could to get back to that sweet spot. For many of us this meant changing accessories and enchantments, the easy stuff. However now with mod 5 on the horizon its about to get a whole lot worse unless something changes. This is because the new armor, Draconic Templar and the new offhand are giving us an abundance of armor pen. Now before anyone tells me the Draconic Templar won't be worth getting because it won't be the best PvE TR armor, I can tell you now it will. It is considerably better (Check here)
I created a spread sheet to show the several different sources of armor pen and help illustrate the issues that PvE TRs could be facing in the near future.
So what does the spreadsheet show us? A few things
1. If a TR gets the Artifact weapons, the Draconic templar armor, Dread ring boon and a "good" artifact belt he will only need to slot between 600-300 more armor pen. Now this concerns me because:
I have shown on the spreadsheet there are SO many ways of getting armor pen and it is very likely that TRs out there are already getting that 600-300 armor pen from companions, artifacts and shirt/pants, probably more than the 600.
As a TR my main focus is on power, the only ring from the new profession that gives power also gives 250 armor pen which means its better for me to sacrifice power so that I don't waste stats on armor pen.
We are limited on our choice for artifacts, companions and artifact equipment so we will most likely settle for anything that doesn't give armor pen which is a burden most other classes don't have to deal with
Now I could keep on going on but it is essentially the same gibberish.
PvE TRs are getting given too much armor pen and it is limiting our gear choices (like getting the full black ice artifact set), for some of us it will mean we will have to change our artifacts (good for crypic though because we spend more ad right?) but no it shouldn't be like that because then they could give every class too much armor pen. What mod5 will do to TRs is hinder us in a completely different way than before. Devs you have just spent so much time fixing TRs please don't ruin it by creating another problem for us for us PvErs who have been in this for the long run.
So the fix this I would suggest at least making 2 of the 3 changes I have listed below:
Change the offhand so it gives a different stat and not armor pen (Life steal makes sense to me deflect as well)
Change the offhand/mainhand set bonus so it gives power or recovery insted of armor pen
Change the Draconic Templar armor so it gives less armor pen (perhaps replace it with recovery)
If you change any of those it just gives us that little more breathing room that we will so desperately want in the next module.
Or if you want to redo armor penetration so that it is still effective once over the cap that would be awesome
Some quick counter-counter arguments before they come up:
Some TRs might NEED armor pen! They could take the IWD boon I didn't mention, they could slot dark enchantments, armor pen refinforcement kits. There are MANY ways to get armor pen which is why it sucks so much that we would get given so much.
Well if you don't want armor pen don't use the artifact/accessory/weapon/armor/boon/companion. Other classes might not be in a situation where they don't need more armor pen so they get free choice over which things they choose, why can't we have that luxury too?
This class ________ gets way too much ______ and were not complaining... Title, I only care about TRs
Edit: I figured I would outline why I am posting this, I plan to get the new armor set, offhand and I already have a legendary DF main hand. I have a lantern of revelation and Kessels sphere both are level 87 and it would be very expensive for me to swap those out for different artifacts. I also have the shirt/pants that give armor pen so when I get the Mod 5 gear ill be well over 2550 armor pen and it would be incredibly expensive for me to get below or even near it. So hell yes there are ulterior motives for this post, I don't want to fork out millions of AD to optimize my stats and STILL be limited on my accessories/companions. I have outlined a clear issue with the excess about of ArP we are being given and the excess ways in which we can get armor pen. If the amount of armor pen was lowered and it upset a single PvE TR guess what? They could slot a dark enchantment!
Edit 2: The new Drow armor sets on the preview gateway has the same amount of stats and better stats with good distribution as well as 3 different options. Also its set bonus is awesome so ill probably end up using the new pvp set.
This translates to around 2550 points in armor penetration.
Now, having a point where a stat is no longer "useful" can of course raise some concerns when one goes over the "cap".
That is exactly what is occurring (or about to occur) for end game PvE TRs, due to the new gear that is coming out.
First lets clarify this is for the NEW content that will become the END GAME which means it will be hard content and people will need to be well geared, so most likely people who will be going into the new content will have most of the boons, rank 7+ enchantments, augment companion, purple artifacts, gemmed shirts/pants and artifact main hand.
Now what happens when you are at the end game before new content comes out is you normally have your stats well optimized, this means for many TRs we have an artifact or 2 and our shirt/pants giving us armor pen so that we are just kissing that armor pen cap however recently (mod 4) some of us started to go over this cap due to the new weapons so we improvised, we removed armor pen where we could to get back to that sweet spot. For many of us this meant changing accessories and enchantments, the easy stuff. However now with mod 5 on the horizon its about to get a whole lot worse unless something changes. This is because the new armor, Draconic Templar and the new offhand are giving us an abundance of armor pen. Now before anyone tells me the Draconic Templar won't be worth getting because it won't be the best PvE TR armor, I can tell you now it will. It is considerably better (Check here)
I created a spread sheet to show the several different sources of armor pen and help illustrate the issues that PvE TRs could be facing in the near future.
So what does the spreadsheet show us? A few things
1. If a TR gets the Artifact weapons, the Draconic templar armor, Dread ring boon and a "good" artifact belt he will only need to slot between 600-300 more armor pen. Now this concerns me because:
I have shown on the spreadsheet there are SO many ways of getting armor pen and it is very likely that TRs out there are already getting that 600-300 armor pen from companions, artifacts and shirt/pants, probably more than the 600.
As a TR my main focus is on power, the only ring from the new profession that gives power also gives 250 armor pen which means its better for me to sacrifice power so that I don't waste stats on armor pen.
We are limited on our choice for artifacts, companions and artifact equipment so we will most likely settle for anything that doesn't give armor pen which is a burden most other classes don't have to deal with
Now I could keep on going on but it is essentially the same gibberish.
PvE TRs are getting given too much armor pen and it is limiting our gear choices (like getting the full black ice artifact set), for some of us it will mean we will have to change our artifacts (good for crypic though because we spend more ad right?) but no it shouldn't be like that because then they could give every class too much armor pen. What mod5 will do to TRs is hinder us in a completely different way than before. Devs you have just spent so much time fixing TRs please don't ruin it by creating another problem for us for us PvErs who have been in this for the long run.
So the fix this I would suggest at least making 2 of the 3 changes I have listed below:
Change the offhand so it gives a different stat and not armor pen (Life steal makes sense to me deflect as well)
Change the offhand/mainhand set bonus so it gives power or recovery insted of armor pen
Change the Draconic Templar armor so it gives less armor pen (perhaps replace it with recovery)
If you change any of those it just gives us that little more breathing room that we will so desperately want in the next module.
Or if you want to redo armor penetration so that it is still effective once over the cap that would be awesome
Some quick counter-counter arguments before they come up:
Some TRs might NEED armor pen! They could take the IWD boon I didn't mention, they could slot dark enchantments, armor pen refinforcement kits. There are MANY ways to get armor pen which is why it sucks so much that we would get given so much.
Well if you don't want armor pen don't use the artifact/accessory/weapon/armor/boon/companion. Other classes might not be in a situation where they don't need more armor pen so they get free choice over which things they choose, why can't we have that luxury too?
This class ________ gets way too much ______ and were not complaining... Title, I only care about TRs
Edit: I figured I would outline why I am posting this, I plan to get the new armor set, offhand and I already have a legendary DF main hand. I have a lantern of revelation and Kessels sphere both are level 87 and it would be very expensive for me to swap those out for different artifacts. I also have the shirt/pants that give armor pen so when I get the Mod 5 gear ill be well over 2550 armor pen and it would be incredibly expensive for me to get below or even near it. So hell yes there are ulterior motives for this post, I don't want to fork out millions of AD to optimize my stats and STILL be limited on my accessories/companions. I have outlined a clear issue with the excess about of ArP we are being given and the excess ways in which we can get armor pen. If the amount of armor pen was lowered and it upset a single PvE TR guess what? They could slot a dark enchantment!
Edit 2: The new Drow armor sets on the preview gateway has the same amount of stats and better stats with good distribution as well as 3 different options. Also its set bonus is awesome so ill probably end up using the new pvp set.
Post edited by brilliantcomrade on
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Comments
so change your gear accordingly to your needs
This is just another factor in why the TR falls behind other classes.
Yes well its why I said it was bias because I knew somebody would try to call me out about it. Unfortunately it just shows me that you ignored the key message of the thread and that is that PvE TRs are getting too much ArP out of our BiS gear which will then limit our choices on other gear which it shouldn't because as far as I know no other class has this issue with armor pen (maybe HR?) if nothing changes and I choose my gear according to my needs then my needs will be:
No ArP
Power
Its ridiculous that I (and other PvE TRs)would need to avoid a stat because it is literally completely useless aside from gear score which doesn't matter to me anyways, what I want is to be able to use the best and the latest gear without wasting stats in ArP. If I did change my gear accordingly to my needs I would be using Mod 4/CN neck and rings which is just stupid, why can't PvE TRs get the same freedom with their items and stats as the CW?(Although it looks like they are getting a lot of arp as well)
Yep, for those PvE TRs who have been in this for the long haul were are on the verge of facing another problem unique to our class
Edit:
Also the GWF, GF, DC draconic templar sets all reduce the defense of nearby enemies by 10%, in a 25 man raid its highly probable that there will be at least one of those with the draconic templar set making armor pen even more useless
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Recovery, nice 2/4 and 4/4 bonuses... Too much Arp that only matters for PVP.
It was iffy for a bit, sure, when DF got indirectly nerfed hard. But the speed-up has restored its usefulness and you'll now have the 4/4
bonus up most of the time again.
So, Swash actually has more recovery than you list - The 2/4 set bonus is 450 Recovery, so you're actually getting 1024 Recovery out of it, passive. Draconic Templar's 2/4 is 150 AP gain. So, Whirlwind of Blades is nice, but TBH I've been finding on test that I gain AP faster than on live now to begin with, and the power bonus from that is not going to be up as much as the Swash bonus, especially at bosses where you'll be laying into the thing with DF throughout. Recovery is a nice thing to have on TR and also affects AP gain quite a lot - Losing about 600(The difference without the 4/4 bonus up) Recovery drops my AP gain to 13.7% from 18.3%. That's 4.6%. 150 AP gain from the 2/4 of Draconic Templar is a bit over 2%, and doesn't affect your cooldowns.
Now, the 4/4 bonus. Draconic Templar's is pretty meh and in almost every case isn't going to make any difference. 10% damage decrease to enemies is generally going to be either inconsequential(It wasn't going to kill you anyway) or useless(Instead of 50,000 damage from that hit you took 45000. You're still dead). Very rarely will it make a difference. The other part is even more useless.
On the other hand, we have Swash's 4/4 bonus. It's only going to not be up the first couple of hits, and when you're busy doing other things. By the time you're really piling on those DF hits to get your bleeds up, it's in full swing. And what is it? A 25% chance to grant 338 Power and Recovery for 6 seconds that stacks up to 3 times. That's 1014 each Power and Recovery, and Swash has more of both than Draconic Templar to begin with. With that up my AP gain percentage on my sheet goes to 24%.
Power is good. Power has no diminishing returns and directly affects your damage. Recovery does have diminishing returns, but your huge in-combat numbers aren't coming at the cost of anything else. Recovery indirectly affects your damage - Speeds up your cooldowns and increases your AP gain. In Mod 5 we've suddenly got a pretty big focus on our encounter powers for damage due to the way Stealth works now.
With the 2/4 bonus and the 4/4 bonus up, that brings Swash to a total of 6812 stat points. (Oh, the defense number in the chart is wrong for Swash too, looks like it only grabbed the LS, the correct number is 1218)
It is undeniably less defensive, and if you like to stack deflect for PvE, you're missing that. However it's also a bit less schizo in what it's giving you, and helps make sure you have enough LS. Personally for PvE I get my defense higher and use LS with Endless Consumption; this works quite well, generally.
There is one other thing about Swash as well, one which helps your concern: It gives 0 ArP. While this was, in the past, actually a concern and meant an uncomfortably large number of Rank 7 Darks to achieve the correct numbers, as you have noted, in Mod 5 it is quite easy to stack APen and it's no longer nearly as much an issue.
Just my opinion, of course.
You're right I completely forgot about the 2/4 bonus for the Swashbuckling and it does make me think swashbuckling could still be the best PvE armor set. I personally prefer the idea of the Draconic Templar set (aside from the ArP and Regen) the set bonus to me seems like It would be quite helpful for a party especially in the new 25 man raid. I'm sorry I got so much wrong about the swash set and ill update that when I can, for the longest time I was a perma stealth until mod 4 where I decided to get the Draconic set so I sort of just skipped swashbuckling.
In the current module I do think its the best set but I guess I just assumed the mod 5 set would be stronger(and in some ways it definitely is). I guess i'll have to make sure I have a swashbuckling set ready for Mod 5 just in case the ArP doesn't change on the Draconic Templar set. But this also does pose a new issue, why the hell isn't the Mod 5 gear the best TR armor set? I know its the case with almost every class so why the hell can't the devs just give us a significantly better armor set, but that argument is for another day. I would still prefer to use the Draconic Templar set but, if its going to limit my choices on my rings and companions then there really isn't any point to it ill just "down grade" a few modules to the swashbuckling.