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Reviving the PvP Community
pingconchere
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
As the forums generally recognize, the PvP community on the Dragon shard is dwindling and fairly broken. As a few other posts have mentioned (including acknowledgement from Cryptic) the Drider shard, or the Russian server, has a significantly more involved and active PvP Community. The question is, why?
I would play on the Russian server if I knew Russian (in order to research stuff), but based on comments from those that know more than I, the Russian community is more inclusive of other players and not so unbalanced gear-wise and match-wise. I would assume that the players are also generally nicer, which leads to a better overall experience.
The PvP community here needs to improve. There are various steps and actions that need to happen, but one important step that we can do is be more inclusive to players. Competitive matches between the top tier and geared players are good to have, but so are having more players in general play. We should be more focused on inspiring interest in PvP, finding talent and actually developing it. I know some PvP guilds do this to an extent (Absolute/Purple Dragons), but more can be done.
So, a few problems must be addressed:
The main problem here is that PvP is currently viewed as broken and unfair, and rightly so. People use FotM builds and crush those that do not. (Red) Dragon Glyphs are simply messing everything up, yet completely removing them would leave a few classes wanting in damage. The matchmaking system pairs strong teams against weak teams, discouraging the weaker team. Yet, this only happens because there are less players queuing for PvP, so the system compromises and makes such faulty pairups. Some players exploit certain mechanics and destroy others in combat. Some players only put down the enemy team either through words or 'teabagging'.
Some of these issues can't really be fixed. Toxic players will always exist, and there will always be a FotM build in some way. However, there is no need to take these advantages and abuse them to crush already weaker opponents. The big problem for inspiring more people to get into PvP is in fact the current lack of players already. The lack of players creates this stratification between the geared and ungeared, and this becomes very apparent during matchmaking. If there were double/triple the number of people interested in PvP, gear levels would be more normalized and matchmaking would be at least a bit more balanced.
We can really only inspire interest for PvP by being a better, more open community and recruiting new talent. I emphasize open. Top PvP guilds can have their secrets and techniques, but should not to the degree of leaving other players in the dark. That's why I like reading guides on the forums; even if they aren't the optimal setup for a top premade, they are still usually effective and informative builds. Of course, guides would be better than just a copy/paste build. A real guide would inspire players to try and forge their own path while knowing what works and what doesn't. That's what I did.
This is one part to solving the interest problem, but how do we find more players? To be honest, it's not that hard to find players. Look to the low levels. Look to those pugs in your level 60 match that don't have a guild or gear. Look to even some PvE players. Of course, some PvE players don't care at all for PvP, and that's fine. However, there are those that are not against doing PvP, but are unwilling because of the current imbalance. There are very many players in the game right now, and many are only against PvP because of the relatively closed/hostile PvP community and large imbalance (which is, once again, only a big problem because of the small number of players).
We can encourage new players to try PvP for fun. The problem is, the current imbalance always discourages them from trying more. There are a few potential solutions. First, form PvP guilds dedicated to training low-level PvP players. Yes, low level PvP is very imbalanced too, but at least by having a guild to educate these new players and back them up, they won't be so discouraged.
Second, queue with these players. Talk with them. Be open and friendly. Don't be against queuing with a new player even if you are geared. In my guild, we are perfectly willing (happy, even) to queue with new guildies with a 9k gs even though we average around 17k. We do it to enjoy playing PvP together. So, even though we would get stomped by those strong premades and glyph users, the new guildies are still open to playing PvP with us, for it's a fun experience when playing with other people that communicate with you. And, they slowly reach our level by gearing up (both through PvP and the PvE that we run with them) and learning from the more experienced players.
This was already touched on in the previous two problems, but both skill and gear are important. Gear makes a large difference in performance, but a BiS player that does not use smart positioning and skill will not beat a skilled, though less geared player. So, another way to improve the PvP community is by educating players and really developing talent. Interestingly enough, I did not learn from a mentor, but through watching other, better players (kudos to Godmode). The same can apply to other, newer players, but only if we let it happen. If we are on the same team as a prospective player, give friendly tips. If we are on opposite teams, be willing to educate the opponent to make them better.
I become very glad when I get a pm from an opposing player that wants to know how I did so well in a match, for that means the player wants to get better and wants to learn. I am not going to deny this person the opportunity, even if the player is currently my opponent. One guardian I faced on my TR wanted to know how I was always either cc-immune, dodging, or in stealth. He didn't know about itc and duelist flurry's immunity since he didn't have a rogue and was never educated about it. So, I told him about it and the best ways to counter it. I told him about the damage indicator below the character, the appearance of itc, and what encounters work best against a TR with my rotation. I also gave suggestions for gear, since he was only 10k. Even though his team badly lost that match, he felt good afterward and thanked me for actually being nice.
Now what?
Improving the PvP community starts with the players. We can blame the leaderboard or the matchmaking or the gear all we want, but those only matter because of what the players make of them. I've given up caring about the leaderboard. I don't insult any players on my team, low gs or not. I never complain in the chat. I refuse to use broken mechanics to win, and even though I could use glyphs and become stronger, I don't since I prefer my damage to come from well-placed maneuvers. In my mind, the truly top PvP players are not those that rank in the top pages on the leaderboard, but are those that contribute to the community and make it a better place while demonstrating the synergy between gear and skill.
I want to start a real initiative to making the PvP community better. Sure, we all want it to be better, but who's willing to really do something about it? Who is willing to give up some of their build secrets to make other players better? Who's willing to share techniques to new players? Who is willing to take the time to actually develop a player's ability rather than just take those that have it already? Who is willing to look past the gear (to an extent) and look to the player? Who's willing to let their leaderboard rank drop in order to benefit those that need the help?
TL;DR
Inspire other players by being more open and inclusive. Find talent by looking to educate new players. Be more friendly. Develop talent rather than only accepting those that already have it. Be willing to take a loss and educate players even if it means losing leaderboard ranking. Oh, and please read the post.
I understand there are other issues with PvP, like the lack of a ranked/unranked leaderboard and PM vs. PM, but those are issues for a different thread. This is a general callout for players to truly try to make the community better.
If you have any ideas, list them. Communication is key here.
I would play on the Russian server if I knew Russian (in order to research stuff), but based on comments from those that know more than I, the Russian community is more inclusive of other players and not so unbalanced gear-wise and match-wise. I would assume that the players are also generally nicer, which leads to a better overall experience.
The PvP community here needs to improve. There are various steps and actions that need to happen, but one important step that we can do is be more inclusive to players. Competitive matches between the top tier and geared players are good to have, but so are having more players in general play. We should be more focused on inspiring interest in PvP, finding talent and actually developing it. I know some PvP guilds do this to an extent (Absolute/Purple Dragons), but more can be done.
So, a few problems must be addressed:
- Inspiring Interest
The main problem here is that PvP is currently viewed as broken and unfair, and rightly so. People use FotM builds and crush those that do not. (Red) Dragon Glyphs are simply messing everything up, yet completely removing them would leave a few classes wanting in damage. The matchmaking system pairs strong teams against weak teams, discouraging the weaker team. Yet, this only happens because there are less players queuing for PvP, so the system compromises and makes such faulty pairups. Some players exploit certain mechanics and destroy others in combat. Some players only put down the enemy team either through words or 'teabagging'.
Some of these issues can't really be fixed. Toxic players will always exist, and there will always be a FotM build in some way. However, there is no need to take these advantages and abuse them to crush already weaker opponents. The big problem for inspiring more people to get into PvP is in fact the current lack of players already. The lack of players creates this stratification between the geared and ungeared, and this becomes very apparent during matchmaking. If there were double/triple the number of people interested in PvP, gear levels would be more normalized and matchmaking would be at least a bit more balanced.
We can really only inspire interest for PvP by being a better, more open community and recruiting new talent. I emphasize open. Top PvP guilds can have their secrets and techniques, but should not to the degree of leaving other players in the dark. That's why I like reading guides on the forums; even if they aren't the optimal setup for a top premade, they are still usually effective and informative builds. Of course, guides would be better than just a copy/paste build. A real guide would inspire players to try and forge their own path while knowing what works and what doesn't. That's what I did.
- Finding Talent
This is one part to solving the interest problem, but how do we find more players? To be honest, it's not that hard to find players. Look to the low levels. Look to those pugs in your level 60 match that don't have a guild or gear. Look to even some PvE players. Of course, some PvE players don't care at all for PvP, and that's fine. However, there are those that are not against doing PvP, but are unwilling because of the current imbalance. There are very many players in the game right now, and many are only against PvP because of the relatively closed/hostile PvP community and large imbalance (which is, once again, only a big problem because of the small number of players).
We can encourage new players to try PvP for fun. The problem is, the current imbalance always discourages them from trying more. There are a few potential solutions. First, form PvP guilds dedicated to training low-level PvP players. Yes, low level PvP is very imbalanced too, but at least by having a guild to educate these new players and back them up, they won't be so discouraged.
Second, queue with these players. Talk with them. Be open and friendly. Don't be against queuing with a new player even if you are geared. In my guild, we are perfectly willing (happy, even) to queue with new guildies with a 9k gs even though we average around 17k. We do it to enjoy playing PvP together. So, even though we would get stomped by those strong premades and glyph users, the new guildies are still open to playing PvP with us, for it's a fun experience when playing with other people that communicate with you. And, they slowly reach our level by gearing up (both through PvP and the PvE that we run with them) and learning from the more experienced players.
- Developing Talent
This was already touched on in the previous two problems, but both skill and gear are important. Gear makes a large difference in performance, but a BiS player that does not use smart positioning and skill will not beat a skilled, though less geared player. So, another way to improve the PvP community is by educating players and really developing talent. Interestingly enough, I did not learn from a mentor, but through watching other, better players (kudos to Godmode). The same can apply to other, newer players, but only if we let it happen. If we are on the same team as a prospective player, give friendly tips. If we are on opposite teams, be willing to educate the opponent to make them better.
I become very glad when I get a pm from an opposing player that wants to know how I did so well in a match, for that means the player wants to get better and wants to learn. I am not going to deny this person the opportunity, even if the player is currently my opponent. One guardian I faced on my TR wanted to know how I was always either cc-immune, dodging, or in stealth. He didn't know about itc and duelist flurry's immunity since he didn't have a rogue and was never educated about it. So, I told him about it and the best ways to counter it. I told him about the damage indicator below the character, the appearance of itc, and what encounters work best against a TR with my rotation. I also gave suggestions for gear, since he was only 10k. Even though his team badly lost that match, he felt good afterward and thanked me for actually being nice.
Now what?
Improving the PvP community starts with the players. We can blame the leaderboard or the matchmaking or the gear all we want, but those only matter because of what the players make of them. I've given up caring about the leaderboard. I don't insult any players on my team, low gs or not. I never complain in the chat. I refuse to use broken mechanics to win, and even though I could use glyphs and become stronger, I don't since I prefer my damage to come from well-placed maneuvers. In my mind, the truly top PvP players are not those that rank in the top pages on the leaderboard, but are those that contribute to the community and make it a better place while demonstrating the synergy between gear and skill.
I want to start a real initiative to making the PvP community better. Sure, we all want it to be better, but who's willing to really do something about it? Who is willing to give up some of their build secrets to make other players better? Who's willing to share techniques to new players? Who is willing to take the time to actually develop a player's ability rather than just take those that have it already? Who is willing to look past the gear (to an extent) and look to the player? Who's willing to let their leaderboard rank drop in order to benefit those that need the help?
TL;DR
Inspire other players by being more open and inclusive. Find talent by looking to educate new players. Be more friendly. Develop talent rather than only accepting those that already have it. Be willing to take a loss and educate players even if it means losing leaderboard ranking. Oh, and please read the post.
I understand there are other issues with PvP, like the lack of a ranked/unranked leaderboard and PM vs. PM, but those are issues for a different thread. This is a general callout for players to truly try to make the community better.
If you have any ideas, list them. Communication is key here.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Well, regarding gear there are 23k players as well as 6k players matched together pretty often. Also, bad behavior is very common, but it's like 1 guy is a tard, that starts to blame everyone, while others are generally nice. Lots of /zone complaints about "nub team" and "matchmaking is fail".
I played lots of MMOs with English and Russian speaking community, and Slavic nations (Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians etc.) always tend to create PvP alliances and fight each other like there's no tomorrow. The problem in Neverwinter, is there's nothing to fight for. No resources, keeps, lands, cities - nothing. The only mass PvP you have to reliably fight another guild is IWP (DV terrain and landscape sucks), but it's just for fun and gets boring quite fast.
May be it's just a historically built habit to search for player versus player competition in every game, try to be the best friend for allies and the worst nightmare for enemies - it's hard to say for sure. The fact is, you bring competitive PvP->you bring more PvP players. Unrewarding lame PvP is not gonna be successful even if there are people who do their best to make it look good. It's quickly going to an end.
As long as each mod new broken mechanics and gear is introduced, while not even fixing the old buggy OP stuff, there will never be good PvP.
Do NOT rely on players to fix PvP.
This is fully a developer job.
Code proper PvP mechanics and allow fair gearing up and matchmaking, and we gonna have one of the best PvP in any MMO, ever.
the only reason pvp works there (if works, we just know people play it ) is cause russians can afford to throw 200-300 euros at the screen when they want.
i m talking of those russians that can spend their time playing a video game. There are not just roses and flowers there.
And of course they are famous to enjoy by nature pvp-fps based games.
Even red glyphs are not that broken once you took the hand of them.
they just need to develop a gear score based matchmaking.
once people saw that they are paired always against more or less equally geared enemies they will start pvp more cause they will only have to blame their skills if they failed.
when they will be sure that skill is the only reason they fail, they will starve to be better. or at least this is what happened to me 6-7 months ago.
nice people are everywhere.
toxic people are those you enjoy to kill the most.
i need all of them
Basic thing would be to give us free respecs if not dual spec. If you have a main and you mostly want to do pve it should be a 160k roundtrip to not be a chump. The race respec and hence starting stats is really obnoxious in that regard too.
They aren't moving away from the arms race version of the game though. That much is clear to everyone.
But the problem for me is the community, there are some really hateful people playing. Last week i got yelled at by a CW that i was horrible and wasn't healing good enough. So i responded that he dies too fast for me too heal him properly and it would help me if he had more defense (he had 19k hit points). He started harassing me on /tell making my family members out for whatever he could think of, so i had to put him on ignore. On a daily basis i see people hating in pvp on zone chat. That's why i am starting to lose my love for pvp nothing else, not bad matchmaking or imbalance just the community.
TL;DR Imo pvp is great if you approach it casual, the bad apples in the community makes pvp not fun anymore. Nothing else.
"Solo TT - everyone Zerg him."
PS I know russian)