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Doing it wrong: Squishies should do better DPS, not Tanks
magiquepurse
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
So I am wondering what is the mentality behind giving Tank classes with huge armor, damage reduction, HP and survivability better damage than a squishy mage?
http://www.twitch.tv/tolkienbuff1/c/5354487
The GWF here has about 15-55K burst every rotation, without dailies/at wills. My CW would do to this GWF about 25-30K damage/same rotation. GWF can immune CC etc., I have a few dodges to delay death when I finally get hit by a proc. CW dodges are easily exploitable as well. You can FLS after the CW dodge for 100% guaranteed CC.
Yes, I am fully aware Intimidation gets a nerf next mod.
But so is the CW.
And I want to clarify the purpose of this topic: I am curious why would the developers give Tank spec, Tanky class more PvP DPS than the squishy Mage It is counter-intuitive and against everything that MMO balance should be. I don't wanna see nerf/buff discussions please.
Also, this is not a topic about GWF or Intimidation. At this time, other tank classes/specs have better damage or even CC than a Mage - namely the HR and the GF. I am just using GWF as an example since there are no HR or GF videos that I can find, but these classes are equally ridiculously "balanced".
You cannot give people 50-60K HP pools with great DR, great Deflect while letting them have great DPS and CC as well.
http://www.twitch.tv/tolkienbuff1/c/5354487
The GWF here has about 15-55K burst every rotation, without dailies/at wills. My CW would do to this GWF about 25-30K damage/same rotation. GWF can immune CC etc., I have a few dodges to delay death when I finally get hit by a proc. CW dodges are easily exploitable as well. You can FLS after the CW dodge for 100% guaranteed CC.
Yes, I am fully aware Intimidation gets a nerf next mod.
But so is the CW.
And I want to clarify the purpose of this topic: I am curious why would the developers give Tank spec, Tanky class more PvP DPS than the squishy Mage It is counter-intuitive and against everything that MMO balance should be. I don't wanna see nerf/buff discussions please.
Also, this is not a topic about GWF or Intimidation. At this time, other tank classes/specs have better damage or even CC than a Mage - namely the HR and the GF. I am just using GWF as an example since there are no HR or GF videos that I can find, but these classes are equally ridiculously "balanced".
You cannot give people 50-60K HP pools with great DR, great Deflect while letting them have great DPS and CC as well.
Post edited by magiquepurse on
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"but i have to put 5 points in sentinel which sucks"
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and the nerf on intimidation makes me laugh.
if a single proc can lead to 50k damages, a nerf of 30% can easily result in 30k....30k...a proc..
4:35 is hilarious tho
2nd the greatsword in most players opinion is just for the look.
3rd GWF is class w,o dodge so yeah we need to have some defensive stats.
36337 proc, 19599 non-crit proc.=55936 PROC Damage in about a single second.
The CW in return did a 10K Icy Rays crit and a 2K probably Storm Spell proc, the same Storm Spell people complain about. Both the CW and the GWF are BiS. Then the CW died.
How is this balanced even remotely?
4500 defence, 60k hp, 35% dr unstoppable and 40% deflect isnt enough? god i would give up stealth for that...
without shift? a gwf/sw can sprint for 10 sec and refill stamina every 13 sec 2 times in a row for additional 50% DR and cc immunity
And yes balance is a hard thing, but ask a poor TR how he feels when he run into a CW? Same thing as GWF vs CW more or less.
Yeah if the CW is using the proper setup it's a bit harsh for most TRs. I still know at least 2 that might be able to deal with it and even kill the CWs, but a geared, yet average-skills TR will surely have serious issues.
Once again, sentinel has no sustained damage. He does absolutely no damage from at wills and AP generation is quite bad. And the moment he goes on cooldown - he's a punching bag.
Whereas CW has range (!), great control, short cooldowns, awesome AP generation, sustained damage, good burst, can 1HKO with dailies and etc etc. So what else do you want? So that you could 1 shot tanks (like before red glyph fix) while they could barely touch you? Are you even serious here?
Same for you Devs cannot give 50-60 k hp to CW with high brust and high dots 3 teleport and the best 50% cannot be mignated (shild on tab) defense . Cuz you can achive this too. I have nothing else to say KING IN PVE KING IN PVP KING IN DPS KING IN SURVIVE (x3 time HP pool LS on any encounter and daly )_KING IN CC what else do you want ? OFC after mod 5 CW can be a buffer healer too(aka renegade rework).
Before you cry for nerf look in your self and tell me CW is not IMBA.
Do you know what dont stop crying dont stop untily you achived GOD MOD on your super CWs i am sick from CWs in pve and in pvp.
You all dont stop calling for nerfs and non stop asking for buff bcuz your CW s are sooo underpowered and the weakest thing in NW .
Somone over dps a CW how dare ? NERF IT
Somone can live from 1 rota of OP CW how dare ? NERF IT
This is all you can do nothing else .
I want decent chance to kill the tanks, about 50% or so, without getting overhealed, overCCed, overDPSed without having chances to retaliate.
Don't try to turn this into a GWF topic, it is not. GWF is taken as an example as how tanking and DPS are overpowered in a singular package.
And I am dead serious. CWs cannot now do almost anything to BiS level HR/GF/GWF in a 1vs1 situation. Our DPS is bad vs great DR and lots of Deflect, and our CC is even worse against Sprint/Unstoppable/Shield etc.
The situation needs to be remedied, without making CWs OP as they were at the start of the mod.
This is a PvP-only topic, CW is quite Op in PvE. Shield means nothing vs geared PvPers. With Shield on Tab and 46K HP fully potted, a GWF will 2 shot me or an HR will kill me without landing a single CC/rotation by piercing procs, overhealing all damage. A GF can kill me with Tene reflect procs while permashielding or huge damage from Anvil.
It is Easy Mode for these classes.
There should be no CW nerfs. My damage is less than most tanks when teaming up for dungeons, which defeats the purpose of having a wizard, and I wonder if rewards for such team-ups go to the highest damager of the party, no one seems able to tell me.
However, I and many like me are not 'rising up' but rightfully questioning the design of it all. Tanks should be nerfed on damage, not CW.
Leader of the Packs
GWF is not a true tank class. It's a hybrid of tank and damage (think GF+TR). As such, unless it's hyperspecialised with gear and feats, it won't ever be a true tank.
GF, however, is a true tank (especially as protector) and whaddaya know, she doesn't do massive amounts of damage. So, yes, there's some balance. What needs to be addressed more is the self-heal of many squishies (and yes, I'm saying this as an HR), which keeps them alive in situations where they should either need a tank or be sucking pots.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
The purpose of this topic is to discuss a MENTALITY beyond balance changes.
In MMOs, there are tradeoffs:
- mage class wears a dress, and is way squishier than tanks. It cannot wear plate and it should not wear plate. It cannot facetank, it must kite.
- mage class usually gets as a tradeoff for above weaknesses Crowd Control, some immunities to CC, and good damage (usually the AoE type). The mage is compensating his lack of durability by smart usage of spells and punishing enemies through CC and damage if they get caught.
- fighter-type, tank classes are very durable and wear plate/mail. They are heavy armored units.
- the tradeoff for this increased survivability is usually lower damage. Tanks should still have decent CC and abilities to escape CC. They should NEVER, EVER burst you down in 1 second however. Actually, no class or spec whatsoever should be able to do that.
So there you have it.
GWF spec we discussing here is the Tank one, the Sentinel. It turns out they made it deal more damage than the Destroyer, in an easier way. Who would have thought?
GF deals HUGE amount of damage in PvP. This is what you can expect as a CW:
http://www.twitch.tv/justicarsyndra/c/5209787
Most GFs would shy away from Knight's Challenge, however, their damage remains incredibly high for such a durable class.
I also hope LS will got Brutal nerf to uslessness and you will drink pots like hell and you all will use GSoH like GF now.
MYbe then you will think about your self (mybe we asked too much nerf on tanks of NWN ) or you will go back to controll instead of DPS God Mod .
and melee classes need all the tankiness they have and then some, cw dont(or at least shouldnt) get hit by 10k+ autoattacks all the time
and intimidation is a dumb fail, instead of fixing threat issues with existing damage they just increased damage while leaving destro with way too low dps
Yes, your idea is good, I endorse it. Now all we need is implementation so we can test.
As for the STvsAoE dilemma. Other games have the mage compensating his lack of ST damage with lots of CC and other cool magics, such as CC/Damage immunity spells. Thing is other classes almost nullify our control abilities, and you cannot give free ezy-mode CC to CWs either, or we end up in the same place as M4 with everybody complaining about being locked down.
Yes, ranged have to step on nodes more often than not, more exactly each time the node is red or about to go red. This isn't a deathmatch, it's domination. Also in Neverwinter there are no pure melee classes, they have 60' lunges, 83' Marauders&26' Boar Charge, at will intercepts, AoE splash stuns with FLS and so on.
The only place where a ranged class can stay and nuke at leisure is usually in GG or oPvP, both of which aren't really what I'd call PvP.
Just another example of how ridiculous the situation is, since you play an HR. Your class can kill a CW by MISSING ALL THE ENCOUNTERS. Purely by PB procs, while outhealing all CW damage with WM and LS.
All in all, your dream of every class having 50% chance to beat every other class is simply an utopia. An impossible thing when devs spend so little of their time on pvp content. They just overnerf one class and overbuff another class judging simply by how loud are the players of either class on the forum.
which is why so many people scream on the forums with dishonest arguments.
I wish the devs weren't so feckless.
I do NOT agree with dying from 2 Intimidation procs/1 Anvil crit/Piercing Blade&Careful Attack&glyphs procs from MISSED attacks, when my CW is pretty much BiS, minus a few rank 10s and has more than a year of PvP experience.
Another example, just like the one with the HR in previous post.
A BiS senti FOTM GWF can now sprint/TR a CW, presenting him with the opportunity to:
- die from huge at wills damage (yes, CW cannot stay and tank Sure Strike spam, it will die)
- dodge
If I dodge, a GWF can tank my jumpcast RoF/glyphs/Storm Spell procs easy, count to 3, and FLS me to a double Intimidation combo that will proc my soulforged. It used to be easier when GWFs used GPF because of Severe Reaction, not even that is almost gone because GWFs are back to vorpal.
Sure I can still kill average-good(ish) GWFs, but there's no chance in hell I can kill experienced top GWF.
Look, it's OK if they have a slight class advantage.
It is not OK if I have to be babysitted or die 99.9%.
You mention overnerfing. Well, this is exactly what happened to CW and they keep doing it further in Mod 5.
1) The usual complains about class balance - get used to it already, this is how Cryptic does things
2) Somehow the CW is always made to seem the weakest and most overlooked by the devs thus requiring either buffs to itself or "regulations" to the other classes
3) Demonization of the GWF
I might be missing some but overall thats the essence of your posts
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I am posting pretty much all the time with VIDEO PROOF, because I know people will jump me.
I don't get it why is it wrong to desire your main class that you invested more than a year on and many millions of AD to perform at same level as other do?
Also, this post has nothing to do with the GWF, who is from a CW's perspective (almost) as bad as an HR or GF. There are videos of both GF and GWF in this topic. HR is even more ridiculous.
As for my class, I have posted against Assailant and Storm Spell when they were cheap cheeze. However, I see I was wrong. I should have defend the cheap cheeze dishonestly, like most people here defend their class in the same way.
I will continue to post, with PROOF, about the class differences.
Somehow (for money of course) in the short span of 5-10 years MMORPGs devolved into games catering to the fragile egos of people instead of focusing on creating diverse and meaningful gameplay. Giving every class the ability to dominate every other class is wrong imo. NVW is the same, for a long time people needed nothing more than a buncha CWs to run any content but PVP. Now your main class is strong there as well. Your main class is a 100% viable in every aspect of the game even at lower gear score levels. Im not sure the same can be said for any other class. Fair is fair but dont overdo it will ya
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
CW is TOO strong in (old) PvE, and TOO weak in PvP. There are mechanics to ignore CC and they are spammable, such as Sprint/Unstoppable/Block, so we cannot defend ourselves with CC, and we depend on that. When we can CC, such as vs an HR, the HR will outheal our damage and kill us without actually landing anything, just from procs. I killed quite easily rank 10/legendaries good CWs on my rank 7/mod 3 gear HR when I tested Red Glyphs. How dumb is this situation?
There is no need to homogenize classes. You only need to make them able to fend for themselves without babysitting.
Again, it is OK if class X has a SLIGHT advantage vs class Y.
It is not OK if class X can faceroll class Y without being threatened.
In 100% of the cases Ive experienced the "facerolling" is due to vast GS gaps. Dont make it sound as if a bis PVP HR/GWF/GF etc can literally kill a good bis PVP CW in 2 seconds cause thats not the case. You have your ways of avoiding being stomped and trust me on this - being able to take hits aint one of them. Because this is what you want to be able to do - to take hits , live and take down the one who is hitting you. If you are good at avoiding via dodge you shoudnt care if my burst is 5k or 50k, its all the same to you. And Ive fought some really good dodgers, folks who consistently avoid all my encounters, dont say its impossible you know it isnt. And lets not even talk about connection speeds. If you ping faster than me and are also good at dodging I'll nvr hit you... however this is already way more than I wanted to say so this is my stop.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
- You cannot avoid HR's damage. I play one, I know how ridiculous it is
- GWF one shotting BiS CW: http://www.twitch.tv/tolkienbuff1/c/5354487 4:40+
- GWF one shotting BiS TR: See 12:00+ first, then 13:46 (31K hit followed by 20K), 20K non crit at 18:40, and there is a 46230 crit at 14:55 http://www.twitch.tv/dersidius/c/5292158
- GF one shotting BiS CW: http://www.twitch.tv/justicarsyndra/c/5209787
- some HR premade action (to show the crazy selfhealing): http://www.twitch.tv/jerkface_enemy_team/c/5324266
Noone beats some pvp GWFs in QQing!
They are the first to analyze every patch changes like bloodhounds! Already trying to swing the nerf hammer to feats of CWs which I didn't even know in the first place.
Who said it is a rightfully CW nerf?