"Control" Wizard

djmacken

Disclaimer: this post is just my opinion and I am sure many others will not agree.

First off I wanted to say that I love this game. I have played the table top DnD (boxed sets) and AD&D games as well as many RPGs. I think that this game does a very good job making it come alive IMO.

But I wanted to talk about one of the aspects of PVE that I feel really needs to be improved and that is the Controller class or rather lack of one to be honest.

Today we have the Control Wizard but from what I have gathered with many, many hours of playing this game is that its far more efficient for CWs to just use their damage powers instead of control. I do run with guild mates as well as pugs, and in most situations I rarely see much in the way of control being used. It seems like it was much more common when this game first launched.

What I would like to see is more variety in combat, by "beefing" up the "control" in the control class (and some trees of other classes) in PVE signficantly. It get's boring to have a very singular form of combat mechanics in a group...DPS and, well...DPS.

sprawlfx

Don't really want to get involved in a discussion like this, but I don't think the name is intended to be restrictive. The class has three paragons like all the others, and each is intended to allow for different play styles.

I will be happy to retire my Control Wizard as soon as they release an official Battle Mage. Till then, I will work with what I have.

But I do agree that they need to make one of the paragons do much less dps and much much, much, more control.

But to keep it viable -little dps should equal +much control. Maybe a 'Hold Person' that totally takes one or three weak mobs out for the count.. or a tougher mob out for at least a rotation or two. (Per application.. this would be an encounter.. with standard cool down.)

thedemien

sprawlfx wrote: »

Don't really want to get involved in a discussion like this, but I don't think the name is intended to be restrictive. The class has three paragons like all the others, and each is intended to allow for different play styles.

I will be happy to retire my Control Wizard as soon as they release an official Battle Mage. Till then, I will work with what I have.

But I do agree that they need to make one of the paragons do much less dps and much much, much, more control.

But to keep it viable -little dps should equal +much control. Maybe a 'Hold Person' that totally takes one or three weak mobs out for the count.. or a tougher mob out for at least a rotation or two. (Per application.. this would be an encounter.. with standard cool down.)

I wish they would finally do that. Both control vs damage sepparation. and I loved to have "Eldritch Knight" from D&D 3 in NN2 and Battle mage as D&D 4 .Hope to see them some day.

m1nuend

Okay, so I've been gone a long time and this is probably a minor detail. But since oppressive force seem to have replaced singularity as most used daily (?), it can be kinda inconvenient when it scatters the mobs that tiny amount. When I play as a GWF, I find myself hitting one or two scattered mobs, instead of the 5 (if it's still target capped) I could be hitting on. After I have to run over to one of the other mobs, and then to the last one. It would be nice if it was an attracting force instead X) I think it does take a bit more time killing them this way.

sprawlfx

m1nuend wrote: »

Okay, so I've been gone a long time and this is probably a minor detail. But since oppressive force seem to have replaced singularity as most used dailies (?), it can be kinda inconvenient when it scatters the mobs that tiny amount. When I play as a GWF, I find myself hitting one or two scattered mobs, instead of the 5 (if it's still target capped) I could be hitting on. After I have to run over to one of the others. It would be nice if it was an attracting force instead X) I think it does take a bit more time killing them this way.

Yeah, that has always been a wish of mine in all games. Some powers are very good, but scatter when you don't want them to. I wish you could decide for yourself if a power repelled, or pushed. I mean, not even on the fly.. Like.. as a cleric, I so very rarely want sunburst to repel. So it would be awesome if it had a check box for that effect so I could disable it.

Same for Ice Storm. Love everything about it, except the scatter which guarantees it will never touch my power bar (I'd maybe slot it solo, but I switch solo/team so often I can't be bothered.)

Let your repel be repel and your smackdown be smackdown.

I play multiple toons of every class, so I see how something that might otherwise seem very useful to me is a detriment to my mates. It is infuriating when your daily or your charged encounter hits dirt because the mobs that were under your blade when the animation started are standing at all points of the compass laughing at you when it falls.

Yeah, jack of all trades; master of none.. guilty.

Edit- All that blurbage.. core point.. controller should definitely group enemies as opposed to scattering them. Isolation=Armor in many cases.

frishter

CW were good at grouping adds up together but with a target limit, oppressive force is just the better option now, they still have good control over all though. OF is a daze, steal time procs 3 hv stacks and stuns, coi if you want extra chill stacks and an aoe spell, and icy terrain is good for damage with storm spell and good for freezing enemies. As a CW I still feel like I do a lot of control and damage, though without the shard prone the initiating can be a pain if you don't have someone to take the initial grunt.

I think they're a good pick without the need to have several on your team. Mostly because new dungeons are designed to be less multi cw friendly.

On the tiamat raid, coi, sudden storm, steal time, icy terrain and oppressive force gave me enough control and damage to solo defend the clerics. Extra chill stacks from chilling cloud also helps.

chemboy613

Good CWs understand that you don't DPS so you don't have to control:

You control so you can DPS - always.

The problem now is that singularity and furious immolation have target limits of 8. This means that if I use these dailies when we are fighting say, 30 mobs, it will miss 22 of them and not control very well at all. This _forces_ me to use oppressive force, which will hit all the mobs, and while it does spread them out, the stun is quite useful as well.

CWs who only think about their DPS and don't worry about control do not truly understand their class at all.

m1nuend

My wizzie was from before the MoF, so I haven't checked out their skills yet. But it is tempting to respec into one just for the Furious Immolation (which I assume is what I've been seeing). Edit: Didn't see it had a cap of 8. So disregard this. It did seem more useful than Sing because of it instantaneous (?) nature, tough.

I do realize why Singularity became bad when it was target nerfed. As it is now, I'm actually reluctant to use any of the dailies, but I do use Sing, hesitantly. Though, I guess I would prefer not bringing my CW to dungeons because I'm either being more messy with a Sing that gathers some mobs or a OF that could spread them too much.
Of course, there are times when OF wont makes things messy as well. Maybe it is possible to circumvent the issue if timing it more specifically? Or against walls. I haven't really experimented myself.

This is what I've experienced when I've been GWF-ing
Mobs are black, I am red.





Since I inflict bleed and slight lowered damage resistance when critting. Hit only one or two mobs with my AoE. Running between mobs. I do think this is noticeable reduced DPS for me. And it makes killing stuff take longer for the party overall.
I'm not concerned about losing DPS as much as efficiency. I guess you could ask whether CWs increased damage because of OF triumphs the increased DPS the GWF would have (or other classes. I'm mostly using GWF as example because that's what I've played most).

The reduced damage is potentially beneficial for the party, but I haven't done the testing on how impactful it is after nerf.

There are some other minor details that lessen some DPS here and some there for me this way, but that might become a bit too detaily for this thread.

Moar edit:

I think FI has the advantage that it happens instantly. There isn't so much going on in that small timeframe as it is when Sing goes up. The mobs have time to split into two groups with Sing; going into Sing group and not going into Sing group. And they can attack from more sides.
With FI they don't have as much time to move and in addition you can better see which ones are actually going into the FI and which ones are on the loose. That might have something to do with my graphic settings, though. Idk.

Compared to Sing, you would also be more able to time it when the mobs are about to attack, I would think.

hefisdo

Control means AoE damage.

asterotg

Due to the target cap not many CWs use singularity. It has allways been inferior to OF concerning dmg and CC. It was viable, bc. it boosted GWF, HR dmg and you lined them up for shard.

When they posted the cap in Mod 4 preview, I stated, that no one would use singularity anymore. They nerfed AP gain from tabed entanglement before. Devs nerf CC and players complain about lack of CC. There is much CW CC, but the grouping feats of the CW are so bad, that not many use them anymore.

ATM I target GF or CW with my rain of arrows, when playing HR. Thats where the mobs run most of the time.

chemboy613

m1nuend - love the pictures. I wish we had a better way to describe timing and positioning as CW.

If the CW is using OF in this situation (with only 4 mobs) then sing or FI (which is great) is a better choice. I would pick FI so that they would all get smolder and we would all unload on them.

When there are many more mobs, we don't have a choice but to use OF.

Now, say we are fighting many mobs, say 30 +, well an OF or 2 and we kill all the small ones and get it down to something manageable, like 5-10. then the next daily can be FI/sing to group the elites.

Also, good CWs will use choke points for SS or Shard or IT or OF, so that way even if the mobs are spread they all have to go through a narrow path where you (GWF) and me (cw) can unload on them together. Also you can OF them into a corner or a wall to diminish the spread.

In addition you can use OF while kiting, to clear the trash and stun them, then when you get to the end of your kite they run after you and group themselves.

A good control wizard will use all of these techniques, depending on what is appropriate for the situation.

I think many CWs get in the habit of "hitting OF when my AP is full" and not thinking about how/when/where/why they are using it. These CWs are not good CWs.

Love the post and thoughts. Hopefully your CW teammates read this and improve.

blazious11

It's not just the target cap, but singularity's casting time was also increased, so sometimes it's really hard to not die, when using it.

kieranmtorn

blazious11 wrote: »

It's not just the target cap, but singularity's casting time was also increased, so sometimes it's really hard to not die, when using it.

I originally posted this comment in the other feedback section previously, but it seems to apply to this discussion as well:

In mod4 the DEV's made the decision to increase the casting time (to 2 seconds) and lower the target cap of Singularity (making it substantially inferior to Furious Immolation), what you're seeing is the natural outcome of that. I dropped Singularity from my dailies when that happened. If you want a CW to do a decent clump & gather spell for you, bring an MOF with feated Furious Immolation (amazing spell). With a 2 second casting time in a combat situation with a squishy class, this is my hint to use something besides Singularity.

Also, as a control spell, Singularity is very dangerous to the caster, since mobs aren't controlled until they are picked up at the end (witness the various mobs that can charge out of a Singularity). Singularity since it negates many of CW offensive spells, is a good reason to not use it (OF, Shard, Sudden Storm) when other CW's are present. I understand this doesn't help the HR's & GWF's, but as long as the DEV's are going with a 2 seconds casting time, it's off my rotation.

-
In practice, If I'm in a melee heavy party, I may still slot it, but only if the melee types will take advantage of it. If I end up with all the agro after using it, I will use something else.

chemboy613

Agreed, what they did to singularity makes me sad.

kweassa

I think it might be meaningful if some of you CW players also play the TR, and perhaps "benchmark" some of the new features with the Scoundrel TR path.

In other words, perhaps one of your build paths could be changed to accommodate for a great increase in CC capacity through addition of active/small/tactical CCs, rather than keep on trying to increase your 'big' CCs seeking for "nuke" setups.

Feats like Skull Cracker or Concussive Strikes the Scoundrel TRs have, seem to be very worthy material which has a lot of uses both in PvP and PvE, currently in the preview. The outcome is indeed a bit weaker in damage than other two trees, but the efficiency and "control factor" it provides is just astonishing IMO. Of all three different TR paths, IMO Scoundrel is the one that is furthest from the "old TR" methods, and still viable and fun at the same time, through totally different tactics.

Why not ask for something similar? Smaller, shorter activations of CCs that can be more frequently casted, quick enough to immediately cast when you are in a tight spot...

IMO, using the current ranged of "big CC"s and its combos would be for offense, and the smaller, more tactical, quicker ones could be used for harassment and defense, which I think the CW could do very well with.

Honestly speaking, I've never used a build that is more efficient and deadly agaisnt HRs... and frequent small, tactical CCs to keep HRs at bay, keep on taking away the initiative from them, and being able to dictate the fight under your own terms -- this is where the current Scoundrel TRs are.. and I can honestly say its everybit worth the loss of DPS. The feeling of being in "control", so to speak.

I believe CWs could benefit from it the same.

aulduron

Today we have the Control Wizard but from what I have gathered with many, many hours of playing this game is that its far more efficient for CWs to just use their damage powers instead of control.

Which control powers aren't they using? You don't group with CWs who use steal time, icy terrain, and Ray of Frost? That's pretty odd. That leaves Entangling Force and Chill Strike, which are single target, and Shard, which is generally too situational to slot.

If they're running with only DPS, they must be slotting, Conduit of Ice, Sudden Storm (which is often a control power for oppressors and thaums) RoE(which is a debuff) and Icy Terrain (which has a little control). If so, you must be doing only single target, ToD content.

The only other encounters are repel and shield.

For dailies, you've already been told why few of us are using Sing. Add to those reasons the fact that many controlable mobs, particularly in ToD, don't get sucked all the way up and dropped on top of each other. Ice Storm and Maelstrom are a waste. That leaves OF for AoE and Ice Knife for single target. OF can be tricky to use correctly, so it doesn't scatter. We don't always have the chance it use it in such a way. Get rid of the target cap and the damage immunity on Sing and we'll control much better again. Otherwise CWs will always use OF, even when it scatters mobs away from the GWFs.

helpimblindinrl

Referring back to your dnd boxset is pointless, its like arguing that shotguns aren't that inaccurate in real life or that no one could jump shoot with a sniper rifle when talking about shooting games. It doesn't matter because its about fun and what works in the game.