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Forums > Home› Class Forums› The Library

Can CWs beat SWs in damage done?

vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
edited October 2014 in The Library
Or are SWs supposed to beat CWs as intended or should they both be competitive?
Post edited by vestige321 on

Comments

  • chemboy613chemboy613 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vestige321 wrote: »
    Or are SWs supposed to beat CWs as intended or should they both be competitive?

    Depends on spec, gear, build, dungeon, party, etc..

    but in short, yes.

    Also, paingiver is not a real measure of effectiveness, so let's not overvalue it.
    http://chemboy613.tumblr.com/ - Neverwinter Photoblog

    Everything you need to know about CW:

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
  • vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    chemboy613 wrote: »
    Depends on spec, gear, build, dungeon, party, etc..

    but in short, yes.

    Also, paingiver is not a real measure of effectiveness, so let's not overvalue it.

    Oh, so we're not supposed to beat them overall? ****...

    Yeah, I suppose it isn't. After all, we do offer control. Not sure what SWs have to offer.
  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I've been playing a SW lately and what I've noticed is that a CW will beat a SW clearing trash mobs but a SW is king against bosses or if there are many tough adds, there are many variables as mentioned before, each dungeon is different but in similar conditions both characters should have very close in paingiver.
    fkze9t.jpg
    [Mod6]High Crit Build for PvE GWF Destroyer = ☠ = [Mod5]Full DPS build for SW Fury
    ▄▀▄▀ Check out my blog for more information and cool videos: NWO-Battleground ▀▄▀▄
    Proud founder of the 'Primacy' alliance
  • vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    lazaroth666 wrote: »
    I've been playing a SW lately and what I've noticed is that a CW will beat a SW clearing trash mobs but a SW is king against bosses or if there are many tough adds, there are many variables as mentioned before, each dungeon is different but in similar conditions both characters should have very close in paingiver.

    So SWs have single target while CW is AOE king?
  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vestige321 wrote: »
    So SWs have single target while CW is AOE king?

    CW have more burst damage which is very good clearing weak trash but in long fights, including tough mobs as I mentioned before, a SW can have a better perfomance thanks to the TT and DT. SW seems to have better single target damage but it is a different mechanic because we shouldn't use TT against a single target i.e Valindra, Fulminorax, etc but a boss like Mouth of Madness (Spellplague) which is surrounded by many mobs a SW will do better.
    fkze9t.jpg
    [Mod6]High Crit Build for PvE GWF Destroyer = ☠ = [Mod5]Full DPS build for SW Fury
    ▄▀▄▀ Check out my blog for more information and cool videos: NWO-Battleground ▀▄▀▄
    Proud founder of the 'Primacy' alliance
  • vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    lazaroth666 wrote: »
    CW have more burst damage which is very good clearing weak trash but in long fights, including tough mobs as I mentioned before, a SW can have a better perfomance thanks to the TT and DT. SW seems to have better single target damage but it is a different mechanic because we shouldn't use TT against a single target i.e Valindra, Fulminorax, etc but a boss like Mouth of Madness (Spellplague) which is surrounded by many mobs a SW will do better.

    So CW can have a much better single target performance than SW? Ya Tyrannical doesn't work on single target, but then SW can slot Flames of Empowerment for 17% damage (if feated)
  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vestige321 wrote: »
    So CW can have a much better single target performance than SW? Ya Tyrannical doesn't work on single target, but then SW can slot Flames of Empowerment for 17% damage (if feated)

    I'm sorry if my english is a bit confusing :/. SW have better single target damage, I tested this against my CW friend equally geared against Valindra but if there's a fight where you have to use TT, that can't be considered single target IMO but still the SW will do better.
    fkze9t.jpg
    [Mod6]High Crit Build for PvE GWF Destroyer = ☠ = [Mod5]Full DPS build for SW Fury
    ▄▀▄▀ Check out my blog for more information and cool videos: NWO-Battleground ▀▄▀▄
    Proud founder of the 'Primacy' alliance
  • vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    lazaroth666 wrote: »
    I'm sorry if my english is a bit confusing :/. SW have better single target damage, I tested this against my CW friend equally geared against Valindra but if there's a fight where you have to use TT, that can't be considered single target IMO but still the SW will do better.


    Ah makes sense. Darn, I always though CW could at least match SW damage in single target.

    How big a difference did you see?
  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vestige321 wrote: »
    Ah makes sense. Darn, I always though CW could at least match SW damage in single target.

    How big a difference did you see?

    In one of many of our fights against Valindra if I did 4M/3M, he did 3M/2M i.e but in CK he managed to beat me more times even thought we were very, very close in the paingiver, I wouldn't say that it is a big difference between these classes.
    fkze9t.jpg
    [Mod6]High Crit Build for PvE GWF Destroyer = ☠ = [Mod5]Full DPS build for SW Fury
    ▄▀▄▀ Check out my blog for more information and cool videos: NWO-Battleground ▀▄▀▄
    Proud founder of the 'Primacy' alliance
  • helpimblindinrlhelpimblindinrl Member Posts: 972 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I saw it when TT was eating other peoples damage, not since
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I'm a fairly experienced CW with a pretty damage-heavy build (19k GS, with 9300 power). In all of the time I have spent running dungeons I have run into two and only two SW's that can consistently out-damage me. But it is close. For example, through a Spellplague run I did 18 million and one of them did 19.5 million. In dungeons with fewer mobs like Lostmauth those SW's can do quite a bit more damage than me (like 10 million to 6 million).

    With a high end build and a very skilled player a SW can out-damage a high-end CW. But more often than not CW's do more damage.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    I'm a fairly experienced CW with a pretty damage-heavy build (19k GS, with 9300 power). In all of the time I have spent running dungeons I have run into two and only two SW's that can consistently out-damage me. But it is close. For example, through a Spellplague run I did 18 million and one of them did 19.5 million. In dungeons with fewer mobs like Lostmauth those SW's can do quite a bit more damage than me (like 10 million to 6 million).

    With a high end build and a very skilled player a SW can out-damage a high-end CW. But more often than not CW's do more damage.

    Wow only two? O_O
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vestige321 wrote: »
    Or are SWs supposed to beat CWs as intended or should they both be competitive?
    Until they fix bugged TT that would be a no! (I mean real fix with the 50% dmg distribution...)

    Beside in mod5 SW got creeping death fix, TT armor pen fix and a new paragon probably full of new bugs to use.

    SW basically designed to be the first of paingiver...

    SWs does tremendous dmg in bosses with lots of adds like Draco. And they excels in single target dmg. Killing flames is a beast in low HP elites/bosses (200-370k) for a single encounter.
    They have amazing self buff armor sets (accoursed diablist etc) which can buff their personal dps 20-30% while CWs has none. They have party buff sets.
    CW excels in lots of mob with less HP like in old dungeons.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    There are a few SW outdpsing my CW. I dont mind, bc it makes the runs faster. If they use the healing tree, even better. Great dps and heal.

    I run full HV. Maybe with Draconic/BI and red glyphs my personal dps would be higher, but 5 ppl would lose the HV debuff. Even if the SW is Paingiver, as long as he cant compensate for HV debuff and ROE (I dont know, if he has similar effects, I dont play SW), he might have more dmg in paingiver, but the contribution to the teams dps would be lower.

    If OP is asking about the Paingiver chart, the answer is irrelevant, in my opinion.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • inthefade462inthefade462 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    OP posted the same question but reversed in the SW forum:
    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?778361-Can-SWs-compete-with-CWs-in-DPS

    I answered his question in that thread.

    To answer your question asterotg no, SW have nothing that competes with HV. We have AD set which adds 10-30% to personal DPS only, depending on how much damage you do and how long mobs live, but unfortunately its hard coded damage that does not scale. So as we get stronger it makes up less and less of our total damage. For me it's about 11%. HV is better than AD even only considering personal damage, because its 30% increase which scales as your dmg goes up. Never mind the fact that HV is party wide.

    We do have a hilariously bugged MC set which isn't damage capped yet so it melts bosses, but i'm sure that will be fixed soon.

    Also Kozi TT was fixed a while back, it's not bugged it's WAI now.
  • inthere23inthere23 Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    asterotg wrote: »
    There are a few SW outdpsing my CW. I dont mind, bc it makes the runs faster. If they use the healing tree, even better. Great dps and heal.

    I run full HV. Maybe with Draconic/BI and red glyphs my personal dps would be higher, but 5 ppl would lose the HV debuff. Even if the SW is Paingiver, as long as he cant compensate for HV debuff and ROE (I dont know, if he has similar effects, I dont play SW), he might have more dmg in paingiver, but the contribution to the teams dps would be lower.

    If OP is asking about the Paingiver chart, the answer is irrelevant, in my opinion.

    ROE doesn't affect party dmg anymore, it affects only the CW's dmg now since Mod 4.
    Venril Sathir- CW
    Venril- SW
    Lurch- GF
    Mini Ven- DC
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    inthere23 wrote: »
    ROE doesn't affect party dmg anymore, it affects only the CW's dmg now since Mod 4.

    That is incorrect. They initially proposed having RoE only work for the CW who casts it and not the party. After much negative feedback they reverted it to being a debuff for the party. However, they made it so multiple CW's using RoE will not stack.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    That is incorrect. They initially proposed having RoE only work for the CW who casts it and not the party. After much negative feedback they reverted it to being a debuff for the party. However, they made it so multiple CW's using RoE will not stack.

    Thats how I recall it, too.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    inthefade462 wrote: »

    Also Kozi TT was fixed a while back, it's not bugged it's WAI now.

    Yeah sure! That why I see 1-1.5 million of TT in Lol first 2 boss while the best killing flames dmg is 2-350k...
    So on 2 targets it should be max 350+0.5*350=525 << 1.5 million
  • grabmooregrabmoore Member Posts: 188 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    kozi001 wrote: »
    Yeah sure! That why I see 1-1.5 million of TT in Lol while the best killing flames dmg is 2-350k...

    This!

    SWs damage is too low, yes too low. As soon as a real fix for TT arrives, SWs will be TR 2.0, because they offer nothing to the group another class can't do better.
    @grabmoore

    Heroes of Darkness

    Retired since 02/15
    My opinions are my own. Please do not judge my friends nor guild for my statements.
  • vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    kozi001 wrote: »
    Yeah sure! That why I see 1-1.5 million of TT in Lol while the best killing flames dmg is 2-350k...

    TT damage done depends on the number of targets kill on one ability. If there is a TT on a boss with 10 adds around him and killing flame crits for 300k, 150k is dealt to each add doing 1.5 million damage. So TT did 1.5 million damage.
  • grabmooregrabmoore Member Posts: 188 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vestige321 wrote: »
    TT damage done depends on the number of targets kill on one ability. If there is a TT on a boss with 10 adds around him and killing flame crits for 300k, 150k is dealt to each add doing 1.5 million damage. So TT did 1.5 million damage.
    Wrong assumption is wrong.

    The didn't mean a whole TT did 1M damage, but a single tick of TT did. That's the case currently and this can't be intended.
    One single TT can deal 3.5M with ease.
    @grabmoore

    Heroes of Darkness

    Retired since 02/15
    My opinions are my own. Please do not judge my friends nor guild for my statements.
  • vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    It's ok. CWs beat SWs anyways bug or no bug. CWs are still king of everything. All is good.
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vestige321 wrote: »
    It's ok. CWs beat SWs anyways bug or no bug. CWs are still king of everything. All is good.

    Not exactly. As I mentioned earlier, there are a few SW's who have hit on the right build and tactics who can out DPS me or any other CW. I imagine as time goes on those successful builds will spread until SW's out-DPS CW's on a more consistent basis.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Ideally, CW should have higher DPS than the SW only in lots of trash situations. Less trash/balanced dungeon, SW/HR/GWF (if PvE DPS build ofc.) should win. Almost no trash (i.e what should be most boss fights), TR should pull ahead.

    At least this is how I see things.

    So as long as there are SWs out there proving to outDPS good CWs, I think it's a pretty good situation, especially as CC is no longer as important as it once was.
  • vestige321vestige321 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 149 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    Not exactly. As I mentioned earlier, there are a few SW's who have hit on the right build and tactics who can out DPS me or any other CW. I imagine as time goes on those successful builds will spread until SW's out-DPS CW's on a more consistent basis.

    I suppose. But that's hard to believe. CW numbers are insane, not to mention I think the preview changes are going to buff CW more specially since artifacts are catered to them and not to the SWs.
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    magiquepurse wrote: »
    Ideally, CW should have higher DPS than the SW only in lots of trash situations. Less trash/balanced dungeon, SW/HR/GWF (if PvE DPS build ofc.) should win. Almost no trash (i.e what should be most boss fights), TR should pull ahead.

    At least this is how I see things.

    So as long as there are SWs out there proving to outDPS good CWs, I think it's a pretty good situation, especially as CC is no longer as important as it once was.

    Ideally?
    Then ideally I respec to focused wizardry in that type of "nomob" dungeons and bring it on!
  • jerrockojerrocko Member Posts: 197 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    vestige321 wrote: »
    Or are SWs supposed to beat CWs as intended or should they both be competitive?


    They should both be competitive, or what's the point? I'm sure that's what D&D intends (I hope!).

    In my limited experience, whose damage is more depends highly on the enemy and the situation, plus how you are choosing your powers to use and even where they're placed. I don't think there's a simple comparison that fits all anywhere.
    Jerrocko,
    Leader of the Packs
  • ashnvfashnvf Member Posts: 294 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    kozi001 wrote: »
    Yeah sure! That why I see 1-1.5 million of TT in Lol first 2 boss while the best killing flames dmg is 2-350k...
    So on 2 targets it should be max 350+0.5*350=525 << 1.5 million

    The real damage from TT doesn't come from killing flames. It comes from dreadtheft + hellfire bouncing back and forth like ping pong balls.
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