Life Steal belong to D&D, but it it's so powerfull on some classes that it should be removed.
I) LS is Ilogic.
No tradeoff between suvability or DPS.
Squishy classes like HR being able to receive more damage than a GF.
II) PvE is easy, but that's not the problem about LS.
Right now, PvE is dam easy, but LS is making some HRs or CWs fill their HP in matter of 1 or 2 seconds, even less if they have enough DPS, and with more MoDs coming (more Boons, Artifacts and Damage) they will fill their HP faster, the content to match this should one shot us, but this is nonsense and would be crazy, the right balance should be on the LS stat, LS is making the ilogic to logic on this game.
No its not OP try to clean whitout DC and LS(any %) your team mates will die and you will die too .
Or better try to solo CN with you GF using FR. I know you will fall like a big tree.
Hell even my almost 22 k GF cannot do it .
But agan i dont say this is wrong GF shoud be the tank but the current meta is nobody need it also DC to make a succesfull run .
Also many ppl in this thread say what about TR&HR or GF(melee) but you forget somthing they have passiv LS boost TR will have it after rework and GF still have FR.
In my opinion LS is working perfectly as intended. I am making huge sacrifices on other areas to just gain a lil of LS. And I consider myself as the responsible for my own survival, not a cleric or a tank.. Well just my opinion.
You are the responsible for your own survival as in any other game of the universe, for example, in a normal game you would raise your defense instead of your DPS to get a better survability, but you have a trade off between survability and DPS, here the situation is, 1) Get some LS. Then each time you get more DPS your survability rise too, it's insane and not logic, some classes fill their HP in 1 second, that' doesn't belong to a serious MMORPG.
No its not OP try to clean whitout DC and LS(any %) your team mates will die and you will die too .
Or better try to solo CN with you GF using FR. I know you will fall like a big tree.
Hell even my almost 22 k GF cannot do it .
But agan i dont say this is wrong GF shoud be the tank but the current meta is nobody need it also DC to make a succesfull run .
Also many ppl in this thread say what about TR&HR or GF(melee) but you forget somthing they have passiv LS boost TR will have it after rework and GF still have FR.
It is not OP because if I don't have it I would die?, yes, die is something normal on any MMORPG, but it seems that here is wrong... lol.
It is not OP because if I don't have it I would die?, yes, die is something normal on any MMORPG, but it seems that here is wrong... lol.
Fighter's Recovery is OP.
You are too offensive try to suggest solution between your option and defenders option to remove LS complitly is not the solution .
Also this game is not a common MMO in common mmos tanks have UD (ultimate defense) in the time of the UD skill they are immune to any source of dmg what we dont have here (this game is based on D&D ). Also in D&D LS exist its not such a powerful as here but it is there .
FR is there too also vampiritic skills spells.
It is difficult to like this thread because the OP is constantly talking about solo'ing T2s which is irrelevant.
But, because people are chattering, I want to point out that Diablo 3 devs discovered 1 year after release that life steal as a percentage stat is a broken concept, and they responded by biting the bullet, removing the entire stat, and replacing it with a new emphasis "Life on Hit". The problem with life steal as a percentage stat is it turns power and crit into magic stat that do more than just increase your damage output. Get more damage then you get more life per a second. Since, you can generally predict DPS goes up as a game ages, unless HP pools go up at the same rate, then eventually lifesteal will break.
"Life on Hit" doesn't introduce the same effect, it doesn't cause life gained per a second to scale with power and crit. It is more or less a static sort of gain that doesn't easily scale with other stats, and thus it is easier for a developer to tune content around. Different classes will be able to generate "more hits", but members of the same class can't use another dps stat to amplify "Life on Hit".
People have said "they should cut lifesteal in half". No. They should delete lifesteal and replace it with life on hit, and while they are at it they should scale AEs and rapid encounter attacks to be 1 hit (or not much more than a few hits).
As for nerfing FR. FR is the least broken ability mentioned in this thread. At least it feels like D&D. A D&D game should be defined by its use of large powerful discrete abilities. I will say that maybe a D&D game should only let a daily refresh when you are out of combat. It is a daily how can you use it twice in one fight? But, this is Neverwinter.... Could you imagine doing a named with just one use of a "Daily"? That would be a different game, but the idea of building and tuning around large pronounced discrete abilities is something Neverwinter should, and does, have in common with pure D&D. Pressing a daily and getting your life back is the right way to make a D&D game compared to just at-will for a bit and get your life back.
You are too offensive try to suggest solution between your option and defenders option to remove LS complitly is not the solution .
Also this game is not a common MMO in common mmos tanks have UD (ultimate defense) in the time of the UD skill they are immune to any source of dmg what we dont have here (this game is based on D&D ). Also in D&D LS exist its not such a powerful as here but it is there .
FR is there too also vampiritic skills spells.
Ok, sry for being offensive, 1st, I wouldn't suggest anything to trade for LS, I would only suggest that LS need to be removed, because content is so easy I think we shouldn't trade LS for a buff somewhere else.
the problem with life on hit is that it only scales with attack speed and targets hit, % life steal is a good mechanic that is fair to all attack types, though they could make a change for it to be less useful on attacks labeled as aoe and ranged(like 33% effective), though they shouldnt label small aoe attacks like IBS or tr dazing as aoe for life steal).
as for life gain on hit
for example TR lashing blade would give nothing, despite having a long cooldown
it would be abused by dots and all other kinds of stuff, it would still be abused by large aoe skills with ticks, smth like icy terrain where you can frequently hit for a low damage in large aoe while more single target oriented classes would suffer since their skills come more in 1 burst and dont hit so many targets
200 hp/hit, nothing much, useless, and now imagine some lvl 15 in pvp stacking enough life on hit to get it and healing 200hp/hit
and even without stacking on low lvl characters it would be fd up in pvp, losing damage doesnt mean anything for life gain on hit so you would get same amount of heal as in pve, but the problem is ranged classes have it easy to hit somebody all the time for continuous heal, while melee run in, drop burst and retreat giving them nothing from the stat
Well I kinda watch these anti-LS topics and I assume at one point LS will get a huge nerf. I am not on either side of the fence, so I will just make some points for people to understand this stuff better:
- first, burkaanc above has very good points about LS and LonHit
- LS allows me as a CW (but my HR would do just as good) to solo almost all PvE content. GWF soloed first 3 CN bosses since M2-3, now they can do it full as well. I've noticed accumulated self-heals of 40-145K after dropping an Oppressive with my CW, which is kinda ridiculous
- LS makes tanks and healers irrelevant to any high GS party. There's just speedrunning and debuffs+DPS
- LS makes certain new builds possible in PvP that were never any good until this mod. Take it away and SWs, HRs and even CWs will suffer considerably, probably other classes I know less about as well
- LS is NOT OP in PvP, it functions just fine. There's an argument here to be made about Combat HR LS selfheals which can be ridiculous at times.
What I personally make out of these things is that:
- I think it's bad that LS reduces the need for a tank and a healer
- the content is all low GS and made irrelevant by the power creep. Soloing 9000 GS CN at 19.000 GS is OK to me. It was the same in WoW, by the time of Cataclysm I was powerful enough to solo a lot of the 5-25 men content from 2 expacs ago.
- I don't want to bother too much running T2s and CN-type of dungeons. They are 1 year and a half old and I think I should be able to solo at double the min. GS. I do not want this to change.
- LS is necessary for PvP, it is integral to some classes functionality.
The only REAL solution to this issue would be the introduction of REAL, DIFFICULT content, with FEWER MOBS. LS is usually problematic when you have 10-20 mobs, you drop an AoE and get a nice huge chuck of HP back up.
All in all, you can't touch LS as it is know. Would be a bad choice. Produce HARD CONTENT instead.
And the most rational solution would be to..? Alter LS, for AOE using classes. Leave my single target the nine hells alone, because i couldn't even finish Celadaine's tower, without a DC in my party anymore. Learn how other classes function, before making such terrible suggestions, in the first place. I have to sacrifice 10k hp and 5k power, in order to be able to have ~15% LS. If you insist on overgearing your characters to a point where content isn't challenging anymore, it is your own problem and it just proves again, that GS is not a good indicator, for skill and class understanding.
Who on earth would gear their char up to 21kGS, for PvE and for what purpose, anyway?
And the most rational solution would be to..? CAP LS, for AOE using classes.
not cap just reduce efficiency - put a 0.33 modifier on it for aoe/ranged, capping anything is dumb
Paladin Master Race
0
sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
edited October 2014
Hm...suggestion on lifesteal nerf...
How about NO!
Yesterday was the first day of my TR life when i didnt have to drink bottles in non dungeon pve! And I even dont pick any lifesteal boon.
Lifestael as it is now is PERFECTLY normal!
No changes should be made to it.
Otherwise warlocks will totally lose their ability to be support or even main healer in party with proper spec.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited October 2014
I understand the disagreement here, but saying "Make content harder" is also a tough prospect.
If I'm dealing 20k DPS, with my lifesteal at 10-15%, my character has to be receiving 2000 to 3000 damage a second just to counteract that healing. In my PvE gear right now, I have just over 32k health. So how much damage per second do you have to deal a character to actually kill them with such levels of lifesteal? A lot.
So you then either have to program the fights to go back to overwhelming add fests, where every is getting hit so much it overwhelms lifesteal, or to fights with so many one-shot abilities it basically makes most defensive stats meaningless. You basically turn the game into a binary situation where you're either alive or you're dead. No middle ground.
Would that be fun? Is that what you're looking for?
And again, the root problem is that Lifesteal double dips. The effectiveness of Lifesteal is Lifesteal X Damage = %health recovered.
Thus, the more damage you do, the more powerful Lifesteal becomes. In other words, the it REWARDS players for being more offensive oriented with GREATER survivability. This shouldn't happen. You need a trade off. Trade defense for offense or offense for defense. The way the current Lifesteal stat works, the relationship is inverse.
If they try to counter it by making content harder, people can challenge the content by doing more damage, which again raises the effectiveness of Lifesteal, and then mitigates the increase in challenge, unless you go to the binary state I describe above (which I wouldn't call fun).
So again, we need to address Lifesteal in some way. Some suggestions in the thread have been:
a) increase the amount of points needed to achieve a % of Lifesteal
b) a cooldown on how often you can Lifesteal (0.5 or 1/sec)
c) steals a flat amount per hit that increases as you put points into Lifesteal (instead of %)
d) cap max amount stolen per hit based on total health
This would make healing and tank classes more valuable, and cut out the 5-glass cannon meta. If you don't believe me, try to do Epic Shores or Epic Lostmauth with zero lifesteal. I bet my bottom AD it's going to be a lot more challenging when you can't self-heal back to full health every few seconds.
EDIT: Another thought I just had was to make lifesteal effectiveness diminish the farther you are from your target. Give Lifesteal a maximum 50' range. For every 1' away from the target, Lifesteal diminishes 2% in effectiveness. Full on tanks and melee still benefit from Lifesteal (since they're constantly in thick of the fight, dodging red and taking more hits). Ranged classes that can stand in relatively safe positions need to risk coming closer to the fight to steal health, where it's more dangerous.
I understand the disagreement here, but saying "Make content harder" is also a tough prospect.
If I'm dealing 20k DPS, with my lifesteal at 10-15%, my character has to be receiving 2000 to 3000 damage a second just to counteract that healing. In my PvE gear right now, I have just over 32k health. So how much damage per second do you have to deal a character to actually kill them with such levels of lifesteal? A lot.
So you then either have to program the fights to go back to overwhelming add fests, where every is getting hit so much it overwhelms lifesteal, or to fights with so many one-shot abilities it basically makes most defensive stats meaningless. You basically turn the game into a binary situation where you're either alive or you're dead. No middle ground.
Would that be fun? Is that what you're looking for?
And again, the root problem is that Lifesteal double dips. The effectiveness of Lifesteal is Lifesteal X Damage = %health recovered.
Thus, the more damage you do, the more powerful Lifesteal becomes. In other words, the it REWARDS players for being more offensive oriented with GREATER survivability. This shouldn't happen. You need a trade off. Trade defense for offense or offense for defense. The way the current Lifesteal stat works, the relationship is inverse.
If they try to counter it by making content harder, people can challenge the content by doing more damage, which again raises the effectiveness of Lifesteal, and then mitigates the increase in challenge, unless you go to the binary state I describe above (which I wouldn't call fun).
So again, we need to address Lifesteal in some way. Some suggestions in the thread have been:
a) increase the amount of points needed to achieve a % of Lifesteal
b) a cooldown on how often you can Lifesteal (0.5 or 1/sec)
c) steals a flat amount per hit that increases as you put points into Lifesteal (instead of %)
d) cap max amount stolen per hit based on total health
This would make healing and tank classes more valuable, and cut out the 5-glass cannon meta. If you don't believe me, try to do Epic Shores or Epic Lostmauth with zero lifesteal. I bet my bottom AD it's going to be a lot more challenging when you can't self-heal back to full health every few seconds.
Agree, some classes in some situation fill their HP in less than 1 second so the only way to put a content able to kill them is put some enemies that deal more than 30K damage or a huge wave of weak mobs.
1shot attacks is what makes action mmorpg, there should be many attacks(telegraphed and evadeable) that can 1shot or 2shot dps classes from large mobs/bosses, defense should just make a difference between 1shot and not, ranged classes should be 1shot while melee 2shot, and then there should be smaller addsthat just make u feel cool and powerful til a larger mob 1shots you
Paladin Master Race
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited October 2014
Another idea is to make Lifesteal grant temporary hit points up to 100% of your health. The temporary hit points diminish slowly in combat (like the Raven Skull artifact), and disappear once you leave combat.
Then the health granted by Lifesteal is still a strong defensive buffer, but at some point you're going to need actually healing (like a pot, regeneration or a other heals) to actually get your real health back.
For Temptation Warlocks, there's no effect here, since the Capstone converts life stolen into direct healing.
that would double the efficiency of hp, and would make content even more laughable since you would have 2x more hp and could just ignore the oneshot attacks
life on hit is broken, it , CW casts steal time gets 21824912357912 hits times X life on hit(i did run lifedrinker at one point), gwf hits ibs gets nothing
its just difference between a lot of small hits, why a 50k hit should steal as much as 10 dmg hit ?
It's not how Diablo 3 works. Each ability has a "proc rate" which affects how various procs and things like Life Steal works. An AOE spell like blizzard has an insanely low (something like 3-6%) proc rate, so you only gain 3-6% of the life on hit, and something that procs 10% of the time will only proc 0.3-0.6% of the time. This is because Blizzard hits a lot of enemies at once and hits very often. Magic Missile, which only hits one enemy once, has a 100% proc rate.
With Neverwinter, they can probably make each hit of an ability return x life (dependant ont he ability) with Life on Hit increasing that amount by y% per point. This will allow them to adjust the scaling for various classes.
But yeah, you have to trade off between damage and survivability. You shouldn't get both.
finishing regular content without LS, would be impossible if i don't have a cleric in my team.
I'm pretty sure that was the original intent, but that just led to Tanks/Clerics being left out altogether. The introduction of dedicated heailng trees for Warlocks and Cleric and the introduction of one-shot content with very hard hitting enemies makes me think that they're trying to bring Tanks and Healers back. The more reworks I'm seeing, the more the trees are becoming specialized, which makes me think that we may be returning to the good old Tank/Healer/DPS.
Cleaned this thread up. If I have to clean it up again due to unproductive arguments, I'm going to close this down. Please keep in mind the Rules of Conduct.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
0
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Another Suggestion : kill per steal% like Enduring Warrior grants a % of your hit points when killing an enemy. .
It's not how Diablo 3 works. Each ability has a "proc rate" which affects how various procs and things like Life Steal works. An AOE spell like blizzard has an insanely low (something like 3-6%) proc rate, so you only gain 3-6% of the life on hit, and something that procs 10% of the time will only proc 0.3-0.6% of the time. This is because Blizzard hits a lot of enemies at once and hits very often. Magic Missile, which only hits one enemy once, has a 100% proc rate.
With Neverwinter, they can probably make each hit of an ability return x life (dependant ont he ability) with Life on Hit increasing that amount by y% per point. This will allow them to adjust the scaling for various classes.
But yeah, you have to trade off between damage and survivability. You shouldn't get both.
that is too random, we already have enough random with deflect, crit, endless consumption, and still the biggest issue is that life gain on hit doesnt respect big hits, while give too much for smaller hits
life steal is much more fair and squishy classes pay for it by risking to get 1hit KO
imho the only useful adjustment would be reducing the efficiency of the stat for some aoe attacks, maybe some ranged attacks
that is too random, we already have enough random with deflect, crit, endless consumption, and still the biggest issue is that life gain on hit doesnt respect big hits, while give too much for smaller hits
life steal is much more fair and squishy classes pay for it by risking to get 1hit KO
imho the only useful adjustment would be reducing the efficiency of the stat for some aoe attacks, maybe some ranged attacks
I think we're talking about two seperate issues here. How much health is leeched by DPS classes can be adjusted via balance changes, but that only works if it doesn't scale with every offensive stat. Otherwise, there's just way too big a diffrence between low and high geared players. If you want to leech a lot of health, we can leech a lot of health, but the low geared and high geared players will leech closer amounts, so the entire thing will be easier to balance.
Also, I'd say that Life On Hit will be less random. With Life Steal, the amount stolen can change depending on your situational offensive buffs/debuffs, the enemy's situational defensive buffs/debuffs, if you crit or not, and if the enemy deflects or not. With Life on Hit, none of that will matter. If you hit the enemy, you get the life back. Just to clarify, a 10% proc rate for a Diablo 3 ability doesn't mean you get life back only 10% of the time, it means you get life back every time, but for 10% of your Life on Hit score.
I think we're talking about two seperate issues here. How much health is leeched by DPS classes can be adjusted via balance changes, but that only works if it doesn't scale with every offensive stat. Otherwise, there's just way too big a diffrence between low and high geared players. If you want to leech a lot of health, we can leech a lot of health, but the low geared and high geared players will leech closer amounts, so the entire thing will be easier to balance.
this will solve some problems while creating other - life on hit scales with all defensive stats exponentially and number of attacks(dots etc.) so instead of dps leeching life in pve u will get immortal tanks in pvp(remember the immortal GWF before healing reduction in mod2 ? yea that immortal) running max def + max recovery and short cd attacks to proc life on hit as much as possible
since the life on hit numbers will have to be high to be useful in pve, a little example the totem encounter in IWD, its reasonable that somebody with a good gear can solo it, the shamans hit for 3~5k on gwf with 35% DR so you would need to be able to heal that much and now convert that healing to pvp, even with healing depression it will be A LOT
Also, I'd say that Life On Hit will be less random. With Life Steal, the amount stolen can change depending on your situational offensive buffs/debuffs, the enemy's situational defensive buffs/debuffs, if you crit or not, and if the enemy deflects or not. With Life on Hit, none of that will matter. If you hit the enemy, you get the life back. Just to clarify, a 10% proc rate for a Diablo 3 ability doesn't mean you get life back only 10% of the time, it means you get life back every time, but for 10% of your Life on Hit score.
so then its just like i said earlier - tr hitting 50k lashing blade gets nothing while combat hr proccing blade hurricane(combat capstone) will get 3x more from a single autoattack, or cw casting steal time will get 10 000 000 hp cause it procced with every tick
this will be a nightmare
life steal is much more fair this way - the more damage you deal the more you heal, but to deal more damage you have to be squishy and risk getting killed with 1 attack or chain ccd to death, there is no problem with life steal in single target/small aoe(like IBS small) attacks, the problem is with large aoe attacks and that can easily be solved by simply reducing life leach efficiency on those attacks to 1/2 or 1/3, same rate for all attacks tagged as aoe for the purpose instead if giving each attack different number
and you say there will be difference between high and low geared characters, there wont be, a character with 8k gs and 3k life on hit will get exactly same healing as 25k gs character with 3k life on hit, and once the certain point in resistance will be reached(when your life on hit can support you) gear wont matter at all for the sake of survival, it will just change how fast you get through content, and you cant really prevent it cause what will be op for low level content will be useless for high end content unless you remove diminishing returns and if you do remove them somebody will just stack life on hit and resistance and solo everything
to understand that you need to understand effective hitpoints
if you have 50k hp and 0 damage resistance your effective hitpoints are 50k
if you have same 50k hit points but 50% damage resistance you have 100k effective hitpoints (since it would take 100k hit to kill you) and deflect increases that further
so the more defense you have the more valuable every stolen hitpoint is
with life on hit you need only defense to increase efficiency on stat since it doesnt matter how much you hit
with life leach you need to balance damage and defense(to get maximum effect of the stat) more damage means more healing and more defense means each hitpoint is more valuable, but you dont have infinite stats so each point you spend on damage increases the number of hitpoints you steal, but makes the hitpoints less valuable(cause theres less defense to back it up) and vice versa
that makes life on hit really valuable to tanky character that hits often, for low damage, but close to useless to squishy dps while life leach is valuable to both, to tank because although his damage is low and he gets less hp, his damage resistance is higher and each hitpoint is more valuable, for squishy each hitpoint is not so valuable cause of low defense, but his high damage gives him a lot of hitpoints
this will solve some problems while creating other - life on hit scales with all defensive stats exponentially and number of attacks(dots etc.) so instead of dps leeching life in pve u will get immortal tanks in pvp(remember the immortal GWF before healing reduction in mod2 ? yea that immortal) running max def + max recovery and short cd attacks to proc life on hit as much as possible
since the life on hit numbers will have to be high to be useful in pve, a little example the totem encounter in IWD, its reasonable that somebody with a good gear can solo it, the shamans hit for 3~5k on gwf with 35% DR so you would need to be able to heal that much and now convert that healing to pvp, even with healing depression it will be A LOT
Oh right, PvP. Those values will definitely have to be adjusted seperately.
so then its just like i said earlier - tr hitting 50k lashing blade gets nothing while combat hr proccing blade hurricane(combat capstone) will get 3x more from a single autoattack, or cw casting steal time will get 10 000 000 hp cause it procced with every tick
Not necessarily. We can adjust how much each leeches independently of how much damage it does. That's what the coefficient does, it makes certain attacks leech less per hit.
life steal is much more fair this way - the more damage you deal the more you heal, but to deal more damage you have to be squishy and risk getting killed with 1 attack or chain ccd to death, there is no problem with life steal in single target/small aoe(like IBS small) attacks, the problem is with large aoe attacks and that can easily be solved by simply reducing life leach efficiency on those attacks to 1/2 or 1/3, same rate for all attacks tagged as aoe for the purpose instead if giving each attack different number
Giving each attack a different number will make balancing easier. You can increase an attack's life gain without having to increase the damage and vice versa.
and you say there will be difference between high and low geared characters, there wont be, a character with 8k gs and 3k life on hit will get exactly same healing as 25k gs character with 3k life on hit,
Well yes, but it's disingenuous to compare a high geared character who has balanced stats against a low gear character that has heavily stacked life on hit. Besides, the point of life on hit is to narrow the gap between low and high geared characters to make balancing easier.
and once the certain point in resistance will be reached(when your life on hit can support you) gear wont matter at all for the sake of survival, it will just change how fast you get through content, and you cant really prevent it cause what will be op for low level content will be useless for high end content unless you remove diminishing returns and if you do remove them somebody will just stack life on hit and resistance and solo everything
Life Steal has the exact same issue, only it will be harder to reach it with Life On Hit since the health leeched doesn't scale off of all your offensive abilities as well.
to understand that you need to understand effective hitpoints
if you have 50k hp and 0 damage resistance your effective hitpoints are 50k
if you have same 50k hit points but 50% damage resistance you have 100k effective hitpoints (since it would take 100k hit to kill you) and deflect increases that further
so the more defense you have the more valuable every stolen hitpoint is
with life on hit you need only defense to increase efficiency on stat since it doesnt matter how much you hit
with life leach you need to balance damage and defense(to get maximum effect of the stat) more damage means more healing and more defense means each hitpoint is more valuable, but you dont have infinite stats so each point you spend on damage increases the number of hitpoints you steal, but makes the hitpoints less valuable(cause theres less defense to back it up) and vice versa
that makes life on hit really valuable to tanky character that hits often, for low damage, but close to useless to squishy dps while life leach is valuable to both, to tank because although his damage is low and he gets less hp, his damage resistance is higher and each hitpoint is more valuable, for squishy each hitpoint is not so valuable cause of low defense, but his high damage gives him a lot of hitpoints
I'd say that stacking defense is a lot less effective than it sounds due to diminishing returns. Perhaps a solution would be to not let let Life Steal scale off every offensive stat. If it ignored critical hits, for example (with a life steal buff to classes that depend on crits) that could curb some of the more absurd scaling while keeping the balance.
Oh right, PvP. Those values will definitely have to be adjusted seperately.
Not necessarily. We can adjust how much each leeches independently of how much damage it does. That's what the coefficient does, it makes certain attacks leech less per hit.
they dont want abilities to work different in pvp and pve, and do you seriously believe they would balance it ?
and same difference is between solo pve and dungeons, in dungeons all the buffs increase damage thus increasing life steal to work with harder content, while lgoh would either make solo content easy to heal enough for dungeons or decent for solo pve and useless for dungeons
Giving each attack a different number will make balancing easier. You can increase an attack's life gain without having to increase the damage and vice versa.
balancing 1000 different numbers is harder, and we all know know how good cryptic is at balancing/fixing stuff
Well yes, but it's disingenuous to compare a high geared character who has balanced stats against a low gear character that has heavily stacked life on hit. Besides, the point of life on hit is to narrow the gap between low and high geared characters to make balancing easier.
there is diminishing return to reduce that difference and you have to compare both, cause life on hit doesnt scale with offensive stats(the stats that make the difference between low geared character and bis one)
Life Steal has the exact same issue, only it will be harder to reach it with Life On Hit since the health leeched doesn't scale off of all your offensive abilities as well.
it is easier to reach with life gain on hit since u need to satck only 1 defense, life leach needs to balance attack and defense to get to that point(aka 2x more gs), check path of exile, life steal is only for super dmg high end characters there or builds that can stack tons of it
I'd say that stacking defense is a lot less effective than it sounds due to diminishing returns. Perhaps a solution would be to not let let Life Steal scale off every offensive stat. If it ignored critical hits, for example (with a life steal buff to classes that depend on crits) that could curb some of the more absurd scaling while keeping the balance.
its easier and cheaper, if you think cw are too tanky cause of lifesteal, with lgoh they could build to be immortal
the problem isnt life steal, the problem is lack of challenging content
dont fix what isnt broken, they tried it with lightning jars allready....
yes keep crying over a stat while most of the players outgear the content almost twice of its requirements
LS is not the problem the pve is just way too easy and not challenging all you do is faceroll through.
Comments
You are the responsible for your own survival as in any other game of the universe, for example, in a normal game you would raise your defense instead of your DPS to get a better survability, but you have a trade off between survability and DPS, here the situation is, 1) Get some LS. Then each time you get more DPS your survability rise too, it's insane and not logic, some classes fill their HP in 1 second, that' doesn't belong to a serious MMORPG.
It is not OP because if I don't have it I would die?, yes, die is something normal on any MMORPG, but it seems that here is wrong... lol.
Fighter's Recovery is OP.
You are too offensive try to suggest solution between your option and defenders option to remove LS complitly is not the solution .
Also this game is not a common MMO in common mmos tanks have UD (ultimate defense) in the time of the UD skill they are immune to any source of dmg what we dont have here (this game is based on D&D ). Also in D&D LS exist its not such a powerful as here but it is there .
FR is there too also vampiritic skills spells.
But, because people are chattering, I want to point out that Diablo 3 devs discovered 1 year after release that life steal as a percentage stat is a broken concept, and they responded by biting the bullet, removing the entire stat, and replacing it with a new emphasis "Life on Hit". The problem with life steal as a percentage stat is it turns power and crit into magic stat that do more than just increase your damage output. Get more damage then you get more life per a second. Since, you can generally predict DPS goes up as a game ages, unless HP pools go up at the same rate, then eventually lifesteal will break.
"Life on Hit" doesn't introduce the same effect, it doesn't cause life gained per a second to scale with power and crit. It is more or less a static sort of gain that doesn't easily scale with other stats, and thus it is easier for a developer to tune content around. Different classes will be able to generate "more hits", but members of the same class can't use another dps stat to amplify "Life on Hit".
People have said "they should cut lifesteal in half". No. They should delete lifesteal and replace it with life on hit, and while they are at it they should scale AEs and rapid encounter attacks to be 1 hit (or not much more than a few hits).
As for nerfing FR. FR is the least broken ability mentioned in this thread. At least it feels like D&D. A D&D game should be defined by its use of large powerful discrete abilities. I will say that maybe a D&D game should only let a daily refresh when you are out of combat. It is a daily how can you use it twice in one fight? But, this is Neverwinter.... Could you imagine doing a named with just one use of a "Daily"? That would be a different game, but the idea of building and tuning around large pronounced discrete abilities is something Neverwinter should, and does, have in common with pure D&D. Pressing a daily and getting your life back is the right way to make a D&D game compared to just at-will for a bit and get your life back.
Ok, sry for being offensive, 1st, I wouldn't suggest anything to trade for LS, I would only suggest that LS need to be removed, because content is so easy I think we shouldn't trade LS for a buff somewhere else.
As Burkaanc pointed out this creates new problems.
How about life on hit with a .5/1 sec cooldown? wouldnt that fix fast powers?
as for life gain on hit
for example TR lashing blade would give nothing, despite having a long cooldown
it would be abused by dots and all other kinds of stuff, it would still be abused by large aoe skills with ticks, smth like icy terrain where you can frequently hit for a low damage in large aoe while more single target oriented classes would suffer since their skills come more in 1 burst and dont hit so many targets
200 hp/hit, nothing much, useless, and now imagine some lvl 15 in pvp stacking enough life on hit to get it and healing 200hp/hit
and even without stacking on low lvl characters it would be fd up in pvp, losing damage doesnt mean anything for life gain on hit so you would get same amount of heal as in pve, but the problem is ranged classes have it easy to hit somebody all the time for continuous heal, while melee run in, drop burst and retreat giving them nothing from the stat
- first, burkaanc above has very good points about LS and LonHit
- LS allows me as a CW (but my HR would do just as good) to solo almost all PvE content. GWF soloed first 3 CN bosses since M2-3, now they can do it full as well. I've noticed accumulated self-heals of 40-145K after dropping an Oppressive with my CW, which is kinda ridiculous
- LS makes tanks and healers irrelevant to any high GS party. There's just speedrunning and debuffs+DPS
- LS makes certain new builds possible in PvP that were never any good until this mod. Take it away and SWs, HRs and even CWs will suffer considerably, probably other classes I know less about as well
- LS is NOT OP in PvP, it functions just fine. There's an argument here to be made about Combat HR LS selfheals which can be ridiculous at times.
What I personally make out of these things is that:
- I think it's bad that LS reduces the need for a tank and a healer
- the content is all low GS and made irrelevant by the power creep. Soloing 9000 GS CN at 19.000 GS is OK to me. It was the same in WoW, by the time of Cataclysm I was powerful enough to solo a lot of the 5-25 men content from 2 expacs ago.
- I don't want to bother too much running T2s and CN-type of dungeons. They are 1 year and a half old and I think I should be able to solo at double the min. GS. I do not want this to change.
- LS is necessary for PvP, it is integral to some classes functionality.
The only REAL solution to this issue would be the introduction of REAL, DIFFICULT content, with FEWER MOBS. LS is usually problematic when you have 10-20 mobs, you drop an AoE and get a nice huge chuck of HP back up.
All in all, you can't touch LS as it is know. Would be a bad choice. Produce HARD CONTENT instead.
Who on earth would gear their char up to 21k GS, for PvE and for what purpose, anyway?
----
It's a strange world, we're living in.
not cap just reduce efficiency - put a 0.33 modifier on it for aoe/ranged, capping anything is dumb
How about NO!
Yesterday was the first day of my TR life when i didnt have to drink bottles in non dungeon pve! And I even dont pick any lifesteal boon.
Lifestael as it is now is PERFECTLY normal!
No changes should be made to it.
Otherwise warlocks will totally lose their ability to be support or even main healer in party with proper spec.
If I'm dealing 20k DPS, with my lifesteal at 10-15%, my character has to be receiving 2000 to 3000 damage a second just to counteract that healing. In my PvE gear right now, I have just over 32k health. So how much damage per second do you have to deal a character to actually kill them with such levels of lifesteal? A lot.
So you then either have to program the fights to go back to overwhelming add fests, where every is getting hit so much it overwhelms lifesteal, or to fights with so many one-shot abilities it basically makes most defensive stats meaningless. You basically turn the game into a binary situation where you're either alive or you're dead. No middle ground.
Would that be fun? Is that what you're looking for?
And again, the root problem is that Lifesteal double dips. The effectiveness of Lifesteal is Lifesteal X Damage = %health recovered.
Thus, the more damage you do, the more powerful Lifesteal becomes. In other words, the it REWARDS players for being more offensive oriented with GREATER survivability. This shouldn't happen. You need a trade off. Trade defense for offense or offense for defense. The way the current Lifesteal stat works, the relationship is inverse.
If they try to counter it by making content harder, people can challenge the content by doing more damage, which again raises the effectiveness of Lifesteal, and then mitigates the increase in challenge, unless you go to the binary state I describe above (which I wouldn't call fun).
So again, we need to address Lifesteal in some way. Some suggestions in the thread have been:
a) increase the amount of points needed to achieve a % of Lifesteal
b) a cooldown on how often you can Lifesteal (0.5 or 1/sec)
c) steals a flat amount per hit that increases as you put points into Lifesteal (instead of %)
d) cap max amount stolen per hit based on total health
This would make healing and tank classes more valuable, and cut out the 5-glass cannon meta. If you don't believe me, try to do Epic Shores or Epic Lostmauth with zero lifesteal. I bet my bottom AD it's going to be a lot more challenging when you can't self-heal back to full health every few seconds.
EDIT: Another thought I just had was to make lifesteal effectiveness diminish the farther you are from your target. Give Lifesteal a maximum 50' range. For every 1' away from the target, Lifesteal diminishes 2% in effectiveness. Full on tanks and melee still benefit from Lifesteal (since they're constantly in thick of the fight, dodging red and taking more hits). Ranged classes that can stand in relatively safe positions need to risk coming closer to the fight to steal health, where it's more dangerous.
Agree, some classes in some situation fill their HP in less than 1 second so the only way to put a content able to kill them is put some enemies that deal more than 30K damage or a huge wave of weak mobs.
Then the health granted by Lifesteal is still a strong defensive buffer, but at some point you're going to need actually healing (like a pot, regeneration or a other heals) to actually get your real health back.
For Temptation Warlocks, there's no effect here, since the Capstone converts life stolen into direct healing.
With Neverwinter, they can probably make each hit of an ability return x life (dependant ont he ability) with Life on Hit increasing that amount by y% per point. This will allow them to adjust the scaling for various classes.
But yeah, you have to trade off between damage and survivability. You shouldn't get both.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
that is too random, we already have enough random with deflect, crit, endless consumption, and still the biggest issue is that life gain on hit doesnt respect big hits, while give too much for smaller hits
life steal is much more fair and squishy classes pay for it by risking to get 1hit KO
imho the only useful adjustment would be reducing the efficiency of the stat for some aoe attacks, maybe some ranged attacks
Also, I'd say that Life On Hit will be less random. With Life Steal, the amount stolen can change depending on your situational offensive buffs/debuffs, the enemy's situational defensive buffs/debuffs, if you crit or not, and if the enemy deflects or not. With Life on Hit, none of that will matter. If you hit the enemy, you get the life back. Just to clarify, a 10% proc rate for a Diablo 3 ability doesn't mean you get life back only 10% of the time, it means you get life back every time, but for 10% of your Life on Hit score.
since the life on hit numbers will have to be high to be useful in pve, a little example the totem encounter in IWD, its reasonable that somebody with a good gear can solo it, the shamans hit for 3~5k on gwf with 35% DR so you would need to be able to heal that much and now convert that healing to pvp, even with healing depression it will be A LOT
so then its just like i said earlier - tr hitting 50k lashing blade gets nothing while combat hr proccing blade hurricane(combat capstone) will get 3x more from a single autoattack, or cw casting steal time will get 10 000 000 hp cause it procced with every tick
this will be a nightmare
life steal is much more fair this way - the more damage you deal the more you heal, but to deal more damage you have to be squishy and risk getting killed with 1 attack or chain ccd to death, there is no problem with life steal in single target/small aoe(like IBS small) attacks, the problem is with large aoe attacks and that can easily be solved by simply reducing life leach efficiency on those attacks to 1/2 or 1/3, same rate for all attacks tagged as aoe for the purpose instead if giving each attack different number
and you say there will be difference between high and low geared characters, there wont be, a character with 8k gs and 3k life on hit will get exactly same healing as 25k gs character with 3k life on hit, and once the certain point in resistance will be reached(when your life on hit can support you) gear wont matter at all for the sake of survival, it will just change how fast you get through content, and you cant really prevent it cause what will be op for low level content will be useless for high end content unless you remove diminishing returns and if you do remove them somebody will just stack life on hit and resistance and solo everything
to understand that you need to understand effective hitpoints
if you have 50k hp and 0 damage resistance your effective hitpoints are 50k
if you have same 50k hit points but 50% damage resistance you have 100k effective hitpoints (since it would take 100k hit to kill you) and deflect increases that further
so the more defense you have the more valuable every stolen hitpoint is
with life on hit you need only defense to increase efficiency on stat since it doesnt matter how much you hit
with life leach you need to balance damage and defense(to get maximum effect of the stat) more damage means more healing and more defense means each hitpoint is more valuable, but you dont have infinite stats so each point you spend on damage increases the number of hitpoints you steal, but makes the hitpoints less valuable(cause theres less defense to back it up) and vice versa
that makes life on hit really valuable to tanky character that hits often, for low damage, but close to useless to squishy dps while life leach is valuable to both, to tank because although his damage is low and he gets less hp, his damage resistance is higher and each hitpoint is more valuable, for squishy each hitpoint is not so valuable cause of low defense, but his high damage gives him a lot of hitpoints
Giving each attack a different number will make balancing easier. You can increase an attack's life gain without having to increase the damage and vice versa.
Well yes, but it's disingenuous to compare a high geared character who has balanced stats against a low gear character that has heavily stacked life on hit. Besides, the point of life on hit is to narrow the gap between low and high geared characters to make balancing easier. Life Steal has the exact same issue, only it will be harder to reach it with Life On Hit since the health leeched doesn't scale off of all your offensive abilities as well. I'd say that stacking defense is a lot less effective than it sounds due to diminishing returns. Perhaps a solution would be to not let let Life Steal scale off every offensive stat. If it ignored critical hits, for example (with a life steal buff to classes that depend on crits) that could curb some of the more absurd scaling while keeping the balance.
and same difference is between solo pve and dungeons, in dungeons all the buffs increase damage thus increasing life steal to work with harder content, while lgoh would either make solo content easy to heal enough for dungeons or decent for solo pve and useless for dungeons balancing 1000 different numbers is harder, and we all know know how good cryptic is at balancing/fixing stuff
there is diminishing return to reduce that difference and you have to compare both, cause life on hit doesnt scale with offensive stats(the stats that make the difference between low geared character and bis one) it is easier to reach with life gain on hit since u need to satck only 1 defense, life leach needs to balance attack and defense to get to that point(aka 2x more gs), check path of exile, life steal is only for super dmg high end characters there or builds that can stack tons of it
its easier and cheaper, if you think cw are too tanky cause of lifesteal, with lgoh they could build to be immortal
the problem isnt life steal, the problem is lack of challenging content
dont fix what isnt broken, they tried it with lightning jars allready....
LS is not the problem the pve is just way too easy and not challenging all you do is faceroll through.