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*NEW* Refinement NEEDS a change as well as consumables
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
There are two issues that DESPERATELY need addressing.
1) Refinement Points
This is mainly about artifacts and artifact equipment. You guys(DEVs) are in danger of pushing away your long time loyal player base. I have been here since open beta, and have invested ALOT! (DEVs - check my history) into this game, however with the release of each new module you guys create a new 20million+ AD sink.
This is not sustainable for players and makes most players only get frustrated everything they did last module is outdated.
With the new onset of artifact equipment the belt and mainhand alone easily averaged 20+ million this new module.
Now with the onset of module 5 putting in new artifact equipment this will be the same.
Normally that wouldnt be a problem EXCEPT there is no reasonable way to get RP by PLAYING the game. Most of the players I know, that have all this equipment either
1) Bought Zen
2) Botted professions (used Bots to farm AD)
3) Exploited AD
I have not met ONE person who has legendary gear who hasnt not done one or more of the three. I myself bought a TON of Zen many months ago and have been living off that since and each new module dwindles my AD to nearly nothing...
What NEEDS to happen is increase the amount of RP for Epic gear, so that players can FARM RP for these equipment. A T2+ Epic should give 25,000 RP which would DOUBLE for "like" items.
This would still create a MASSIVE demand for RP, but make it atleast SOMEWHAT farm able by PLAYING the game (go figure). You SHOULD be able to farm things like RP by actually PLAYING the dang GAME!
2) Consumables
Consumables NEED to be REMOVED from PVP. This is what is causing MASSIVE balance issues and creating a VERY "unfun" and "un-fair" community. Players HAVe to spend TONS of AD to stay competitive and again it only benefits player who have done one of the three above.
removing the effects of things like Potion of Heroism for instance (giving a +1 to stats) it just BREAKS the game and makes it completely unfun.
If you guys WANT consumables available for PVP, create PVP potions that ONLY work in PVP that ONLY can be purchased via glory....
PLEASE consider these two things.
1) Refinement Points
This is mainly about artifacts and artifact equipment. You guys(DEVs) are in danger of pushing away your long time loyal player base. I have been here since open beta, and have invested ALOT! (DEVs - check my history) into this game, however with the release of each new module you guys create a new 20million+ AD sink.
This is not sustainable for players and makes most players only get frustrated everything they did last module is outdated.
With the new onset of artifact equipment the belt and mainhand alone easily averaged 20+ million this new module.
Now with the onset of module 5 putting in new artifact equipment this will be the same.
Normally that wouldnt be a problem EXCEPT there is no reasonable way to get RP by PLAYING the game. Most of the players I know, that have all this equipment either
1) Bought Zen
2) Botted professions (used Bots to farm AD)
3) Exploited AD
I have not met ONE person who has legendary gear who hasnt not done one or more of the three. I myself bought a TON of Zen many months ago and have been living off that since and each new module dwindles my AD to nearly nothing...
What NEEDS to happen is increase the amount of RP for Epic gear, so that players can FARM RP for these equipment. A T2+ Epic should give 25,000 RP which would DOUBLE for "like" items.
This would still create a MASSIVE demand for RP, but make it atleast SOMEWHAT farm able by PLAYING the game (go figure). You SHOULD be able to farm things like RP by actually PLAYING the dang GAME!
2) Consumables
Consumables NEED to be REMOVED from PVP. This is what is causing MASSIVE balance issues and creating a VERY "unfun" and "un-fair" community. Players HAVe to spend TONS of AD to stay competitive and again it only benefits player who have done one of the three above.
removing the effects of things like Potion of Heroism for instance (giving a +1 to stats) it just BREAKS the game and makes it completely unfun.
If you guys WANT consumables available for PVP, create PVP potions that ONLY work in PVP that ONLY can be purchased via glory....
PLEASE consider these two things.
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It is boring yes but it got the job done.
To your 2nd point, I can see it both ways, but since I hardly ever PvP anymore, I will not make a comment.
Maybe you can clear something up.
Currently we have a system that significantly benefits botting because blue items and green items are a SIGNIFICANTLY better RP:AD ratio than epics.
Not only is it popular that people bot to farm items such as that, but then they also bot to refine tons of blues into the artifact.
Making it so epics are the best way of achieving this will diminish the advantage bots have over players. I am not aware of a bot running a T1/T2 dungeon to get items to use for refining.
What you MIGHT end up seeing is bots running solo dungeons or PVP maybe for glory to buy T1/T2 items for RP or hope to farm an epic for RP, but it wont be any different than it is now.... They have the MASSIVE advantage.
Atleast give players a METHOD of PLAYING the game to achieve gear.... I tried to buy all the blues/greens I could but spamming them into my artifact belt was SO tedious but there really is NO other way....
I would add one thing
- we do need regular 2x RP points events.
- Finally fix refinement windows! its interface is ugly unfriendly and with requirements like 5m RP to legendary you have not way not to get your wrist worked out with this stupid 5 slot only selection! Even worse is "sorting" of gear! Like showing stuff from bank. Thank to that I personally refined 200k AD ring since got extremely tiered slotting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> into slots
I do hope some reaction from devs on refinement business if they plan making more refine able stuff
Yeah thats part of the issue is that gear gives SO little and its not stackable versus buying RP stones - which is really THE only way to max these things out.
Some people may have been smart enough to buy this stuff prior to it coming out and let it sit in their mailbox, but still the fact of the matter is RP for these weapons/belts should be something you can farm via dungeon running.
I mean literally THE BIS setup right now (generally speaking) is:
- Black Ice gear - NOT farmed running dungeons. Farmed doing crappy HEs with luck and dailies.
- Artifact Weapon/Belt - again NOT farmed in dungeons.....
Whats the point in playing a D&D game if there is no point in going into dungeons and killing dragons? I mean seriously... If I cant play to keep up with all this content, whats the point?
Honestly the SIMPLEST way to achieve things LIKE this are to create different "daily tasks" that are completed for RP or w.e
So each day youll get a couple daily missions to:
- Kill 10 players while below 50% HP in PVP
- Get 5 double kills
- Revive 5 teammates
ETC - so these daily quests cant necessarily be "botted" but would give incentive (and motivation) to play each day. So instead of the daily being "play 4 pvp games" we would/could have MULTIPLE "daily" quests to turn in that offer nice rewards for specific objectives
Not only that, but again, currently the green/blue system we have now GREATLY incentives bots. Making T2+ Epic equip RP give MUCH MUCH more RP takes the advantage BOTs have away.
I mean even the T2/T2.5 weapons from the PVP vendor require some victory tokens (forget the name) so it cant be just botted....
I'm not sure how your refining but I spent no where near 20mil to do both... but then again I don't mind excess clicking (cant blame you if you do. Its rather annoying but a money saver ^^). Also given the limited content for mod 4 I'm pretty sure they didn't intend for you to have everything legendary in one day. That would kinda be like not having content at all (yep I counted the artifacts as content...not much else around really XD). Its designed for us to grind and fight our way through it. With the satisfaction of having maxed out artifact items. I rarely buy zen. In fact have not bought any in mod 4. God knows I'm to stupid to figure out how to exploit or bot XD. So the methods you listed for people making AD are out of my league. It just takes time. And really not much of it compared to other mmos grind.....this game is very nice in the retrospect.
It would be nice if there were more reasonable methods of lvling items up but in all honesty what else is there to do after that? That said I kinda don't see it changing. It's as they say "working as intended" 1. AD sink 2. gives people something to work towards 3. generates a few dollars for the company here and there. 4. people are pretty please after putting in the hard work to get the item to legendary. Heck crazy as it sounds I kinda liked the challenge >.>. I never knew I could really make that much AD so quickly. Guess its like that old saying goes "if you want something bad enough you have to work for it". To me I personally think they cut out alot of the grind for getting the weapon... The Formorian took waaaaaay more work than the artifact weapon did. Its basically like they gave everyone no excuse not to have a good weapon. So lvling it pssh bring it on was all i had to say XD. I'm looking forward to the new stuff to come :-)
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Consumables need to stay in PVP, this is war, anything goes
Including companions then right?
I support companions in PVP yes.
Open world > Domination.
Domination restrics too much for nothing !!!!!
Well if you purchased the +Con belt since RNGesus wasnt kinda to you then that was easily 6 mil + then about 6 mil for BOTH weapon + belt. Thats 18 mil total.
I leveled both weapon and belt from greens/blues and then had to buy RP to get it the rest of the way because it was taking me HOURS of buying and moving from the mailbox into the item and clicking done. Literally wasnt playing the game anymore just spaming from mailbox to item.... Thats not how I want to play the game.
Say you even farmed the belt, again its 10 mil+ to get the items. The big issue there is the items (especially the belt) are SO much better than anything else.
For a GF +1 con = 1k HP then the defensive slot is another 1200 HP. So comparing Epic to Legendary is about a 2,500 HP difference. Thats HUGE for 1 slot.
Next Module will have OH Legendaries and set bonuses, again cost will be through the roof. Lets take a quick walk down memory lane...
Pre-Module 1: Tenebrous Enchants.
- Many spent over 1 mil per enchant (and dont forget the +300k AD it used to be to swap enchants)
Module 1: Probably the least "zen required" module.
Module 2: Artifacts. Cost SEVERAL million for competitive artifacts. Dont forget the infamous Emblem that was 6 mil for a GREEN then another 4+ to hit orange. What happened? Nerfed to oblivion, 10 mil out the window. Also we saw tenacity enter the picture and lessened the value of Vorpal.
Module 3: MORE artifacts! PVP artifacts replaced the nerfed Emblem, creating an even bigger need for AD to replace that. Not only, but they released new PVP artifacts and class specific artifacts (DC artifact anyone?)
Module 4: Free movement artifact was SOO strong, and again, with the introduction of alot more "lifesteal" and enforecement kits, it opened new "metas" surrounding lifesteal - time to level NEW artifacts because of build changes.
Also the motherload - artifact equip thats another 5-6 mill per equip to level to max....
With each module, comes a *NEW* "Must Have" item that also comes along with an OVER-nerf of the old, making you continue to have to sink MILLIONS of AD into your characters each module to stay competitive.
So all in all, it wouldnt be THAT bad if all they did was add more options, but they BREAK old options making them worthelss... That 10 mill I spent on Emblem - JUST TO PVP (because you couldnt without it) GONE.
Again, it misses the point that players DONT play the game to get artifact equipment to Orange, they play the market... They play the "spam click game" which just ruins the game.
When I get on, I want to kill dragons, I want to run dungeons, I want to PVP with friends. However when I get on lately its:
"Daily this, spam click that, read patch notes every other week and constantly re-format my entire build"
So if they created a better system that rewarded you for actually PLAYING the game, heck make the orange weapons a low chance to drop off final bosses, or give bosses chances to drop 50k RP stones, or increase the amount of RP you get from Epic weapons! THATS how it should be - you should be rewarded for PLAYING the game, not this current thing we have now.
This would be the end of the PVP community as we know it. There is a reason most "top" PVP guilds dont do OW PVP. Because Pets/Companions make it GARBAGE and all about whose got the best pets - nothing to do with actual skill of how well you play.
Pets should have never been put into OW pvp.
Consumables cause MASSIVE balance issues because you can get such a boost to damage, which causes low GS players to cry on forums which causes builds/skills to get changed. Which then causes other buffs and is a SMALL part of why we keep getting these STUPID MASSIVE changes each module instead of small tweaks..
remove consumables in PVP and youll see much more "stability" which future changes. A prime example is the GWF "intimidation" damage issue. The biggest problem came from fully buffed up GWFs using it - able to stack extra bonus power and get extra crit damage with tons of extra HP all from potions... Remove that it tones down the build alot.
We are REALLY lucky the skill didnt get nerfed MORE because of that.
They won't allow us to have fun like you do in a Subscription game. It just won't happen.
Why?
Because some of us play a lot, and through farming the content for 6-8 hrs/day they will be getting immensely rich and won't buy Zen. Hell, this happened because of CN at a smaller scale, with people farming millions of AD.
My personal belief, as coming from a subscription game where I was treated as a valued customer and my fun in the game was of great importance, where the time I sunk in farming held sizable reward...
... is that one should be able to get rich, and satisfied, and happy by playing the game - just as you described: doing PvP, and dungeons.
Not here though. Here the game wants you to feel discouraged and thrives off player unhappiness. Buy Zen, to buy gear, to get more power (much, MUCH) faster.
I'd expect more and more artifact gear and AD sinks, and dailies.
For GF +1 con is only 800 hp .
20000 base hp for any class +1 con for GF 4% = 800 hp.
Also, geared players benefit less from them since they are probably up against the stat soft cap anyway. I always run with the crit severiiy one and deflect severity one because of those bonuses, but the stats barely shift my percent rates at all. So a lower gear player below the soft cap would benefit more from them. This argument that they are bad for new players is so very wrong.
Also, they actually help stability because they can make up for a stat focus change. For instance, I used to use the black ice mainhand which had the stats I liked, but had to switch to artifact to stay competitive, which didn't have the stats I prefer. But I can take a potion with the stat I now need to cover that gear shift. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about all this.
Pretty sure the point is to get you spend actual real money on zen to convert to AD xD
Added to which not everyone takes part in PvP or hell PvE for that matter so gating the RP rewards behind dailys which require pvp isnt really much of a solution. I personally stopped PvP due to the grossly imbalanced classes which has gotten steadily increasingly worse rather than better.
Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
Mara Hawkeye -14.6k HR
Mara Spiritforge - 16.9k Tanky GF
Bad Religion - 14.7k Pew Pew DC
Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
Legendary items are meant to be very rare and very difficult to obtain. They've designed the RP system so that casual f2p can use purple/blue/green lvl 60 items that they find or can afford to refine their weapon. However, using this cheap method will only get you so far. You will not find a person (including botters) that has refined an item into legendary by using these items. I don't know where you guys get the idea of people bot to farm blue items and refine them into the artifacts. There are better things for them to bot, which brings me to next point.
So you want a way to farm RP, well you can make Dragon's Hoard Enchantments, which drops refining stones. (The drop rates of these dragon hoard's needs to be higher, but let's not get into that.) Thanks to these botters in a way, it is now cheaper than ever before to get RP for your artifacts. It cost a lot, but it still doesn't cost 20mil+ unless you buy everything at it's most expensive price, or buy RP that cost more than 1ad each.
I have 2 characters which have both legendary artifact weapons and belts. I'm proud to say I have not botted to farm AD, and have not exploited AD. I have bought zen before, but the amount was very insignificant. Instead, I have spent a lot of time in this game making AD, whether it's by farming or investing in items. I'm not going to list out my methods for the public to see, but everything was legit. So if you haven't met anyone that can do it yet, I have done it on 2 characters. I consider myself to be playing the game, as I find it enjoyable to gear up my chars. If it was very easy, I would have left the game a long time ago.
There are still ways to make AD in this game, some will require luck, eg looting a belt or book for the boons. I know people that have made quite a bit of AD from getting these. But whichever way it is, it requires you to put in the time, effort, and knowledge. If you lack any of these 3 elements, AND still want to get the BiS gear (which is not required to be competitive), then you have the option to p2win, which I don't see a problem of people doing.
Now to the point about consumables in PvP. As someone has mentioned before, these items are FREE. Everybody can get them using ardent coins. You don't need to spend a single AD. If you don't have enough pots to last you so many matches. Well... don't use them every match. I have a bunch of pots in my inventory, but I rarely use them. The only time that I do, is when the enemies (usually premades) are as well.
If you make PvP pots that are purchased from glory, the problem may be even worse, as the people who's been around with plenty of glory can pot up every single match. While new players, or even players who are saving up glory for artifacts, cannot afford these pots.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
There are people that AVOID using glyphs, hate them, and only put them in when the other team consists of @##$ ***^%% that use reds like candy. Do NOT put all PvPers in the same bucket please.
As you are required to get BiS items to be relevant in PvP these days, you NEED to play the game efficiently. That might make the game completely unejoyable and a CHORE for people like me, and there are many that moved on because of this.
So it would be great if the game would reward KILLING BOSSES in DUNGEONS and PvP itself instead of:
- playing the AH
- opening lockboxes
- farms of leadership alts
- illegitimate methods of making AD, w/e those might be
But as I put it in my previous post, this won't happen, as Cryptic won't allow the player to feel gratified and happy with the game by playing it F2P. All their moves are meant to force people towards strange methods of making AD, in their attempt to avoid BUYING ZEN.
This is really spot on.
There are ALOT of other ways to increase Zen sales than just having artifact weapons/items that you BUY RP with... I mean its worse because the weapons dont even drop from dungeons you log in, do your dailies for several days then get the green then buy zen to orange Done.
It would be MUCH different if the Orange Weapons had say a 1% drop chance off the last boss of the new dungeon... Or heck even if a purple dropped with a random boost to its RP so its like halfway leveled - would also be an option.
or another one would be in each DD chest you have a very high chance to get an epic RP stone each run, or another could be dungeon set items (specifically weapons that drop in dungeons) - get a special "boosted" RP value so they are worth like 50k RP instead of 700...
There are ALOT of ways to still promote people buying zen, yet make the game enjoyable and PLAYABLE. When the best gear isnt earned from PLAYING the game thats where I have the issue...
If they want people to buy zen, they need to create more "convenience" items, like additional DD keys purchased via Zen (they might have this?) Or they could make an item for a few hundred zen that "resets" your daily missions - allowing people to buy faster campaigns (I know they did a 5k one for Mod 1 and mod 2) Or they could make zen items that increase the rarity chance of your drops - if they made drops actually count.
Thats a different issue though.
THE ISSUE HERE:
RP should have a VIABLE method of farming for PLAYING the game.
They've introduced new BIS gear and artifact equipment, now how about introduce PVE content that:
A. Players can use those BIS gear on and still have a challenge
B. Players can reasonably farm to achieve those BIS gear in the first place
There is.
What you want is a "viable" method for QUICKLY farming RP.
There is that too. It's called the Zen store.
Either pay in time (farming) or pay in dollars (zen store).
Thats the issue, there is no pay in time method. You cant "farm" in the traditional sense of the word - RP. You can go about doing dailies and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and get passive items to consume for RP, or you can try and farm AD to BUY RP via AD.
But there isnt some daily quest to kill <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> things and you get a 50k RP stone, they are not frequent drops from dungeons, and even if you get lucky or WANT to farm dungeons for items to use as RP (the conventional wisdom would think this would be the appropriate way) you get GARBAGE RP for it!
Agreed. Now more than ever, you either have to grind unchallenging (but unrewarding) PVE content or you have to use the zen store.
I'm fortunate enough to have been an old player who had the opportunity to farm Castle Never when it was challenging yet rewarding. I don't know how new players will be able to compete.
You gotta be insane to buy RP from the Zen store when AH has it cheaper. We end up with a situation where PWE doesn't earn from the cash shop besides nabby people not knowing better, and experienced players doing their best to avoid the system-imposed grind by finding all kinds of ways to get AD faster.
Gear should be reasonable to get by pure playing in its lifetime.
This is an MMO, and gear goes obsolete very frequently, as ayroux described: Tenebrous, Emblem, just 2 examples. Hence it needs to be acquired relatively easy, as its value is close to nothing and will see replacing the next 2-3 months.
Even more importantly, you need to take the NEWCOMERS into consideration. They are the lifeblood of MMOs, and here they will face a 10K GS gap+Perfect enchants.
So everything related to gear needs to be quite fast. You want player ENJOYING the game (as in killing bosses, doing PvP), not doing the same repetitive chore for 2-3 months with 0.001% chance of success.
You get RP. You call it "garbage RP" because you want to level up your artifacts QUICKLY. But RP is RP. What you described IS the farming method.
You get white pearls and peridots from skill nodes and treasure chests found in every mini-lair and all over the solo questing zones.
Also use dragon's hoard enchants. Black opals (10k RP) are a rare, but not super-duper-rare drop. Personally I sell my black opals because I need the AD. But it sounds like you don't. So do that.
Personally I pick up all of the green mainhands and the blues that drop when I do dailies. I do it on the 2 characters that I'm playing right now. For the second character, who doesn't have an artifact weapon yet, that character mails all of the unidentified green mainhands and blues to my first character, who does.
My CW, who has the artifact weapon, right now has a level 37 Chilling Eye. I understand it will take a long long time to get it to legendary at this rate. That's fine. Maybe in a few weeks I'll get real impatient and spend a whole bunch of money and just level it up right away via Zen. That's always an option too.
I mean, I don't know. I understand you are impatient and want to level up your gear quickly. Doing *only* farming, it will take months and months. I get that. The purpose of the Zen store RP, and the AH, are for people who don't want to spend months and months to level up their gear.
But the real question is, how long should it take for a person to get BIS gear, doing the purely farming method? Should it take something like 1 month? Really? Only 1 month to get *legendary* stuff? I think that's too short, personally. But that is the vibe I am getting from your complaint.
I think a lot of these complaints are just based on unrealistic expectations on how easy or how hard it ought to be to achieve BIS status. I don't think it should take only 1 month of farming to get BIS gear, or even 2 months or 3 months. And if you WANT to get BIS right away, there is the Zen option and AH option available to you.
I guess I am just more laid back than all of you. I don't mind small incremental steps for improving my character.