test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
support builds, class balance, pvp vs pve and more
liliadna
Member Posts: 96
Greetings,
first of all I think classes are more balanced that players think (in PVE!!), but they simply don't see it because there is no proper tool for comparison all we have is damage/healing dealt which is misleading in form it is now.
As I see it now, most rewarding build for pve is pure dmg with minimum buffs/debuffs. The reason why is that system rewards me more if I do more damage than others (either if its great success in heroic encounter or leader position in damage dealt in dungeon/skrimishes) so if I place debuff on target or have some sort of buffing aura and other player benefit from it my own chances of achieving my goal are getting lower. And this is very bad. I would like to see more variation of builds but on the other hand why should a player chose a buff build and get no credit for it?
I put a lot of thought into a solution which would benefit support builds and show that classes are balanced (even very useful for devs to compare classes) and I came up with this -
STEP 1
make more sophisticated damage meter which would consider buffs/debuffs from other players. Performance in groups is the most important statistic for players playing PVE in MMORPG or else why would they farm higher gear score (GS)? They could just stick with 15-16k and say it's enough. But most players are trying to get best build, best gear and have best performance, that's the motivation of playing the game. With this change players will have wider choice of skills and equipment and if you would want to change ballance of classes you wouldn't necessary need to change the damage output.
I would add another tab to statistic window which could be called something like PARTY DAMAGE (it would be beneficial to have both damage windows) and I would suggest changes in granting damage/healing to players as follows
DAMAGE DEALT
if I increase someone's
POWER - I get credit for the difference between normal damage and increased damage (so player would do 100% damage without my buff, with my buff she/he does 105% so she/he gets credit for 100% and I get 5% of her/his attack counted as if I did the damage)
-if multiple players increase my power, each gets her/his increase share
CRITICAL CHANCE to determine if player critically hits, there is some d100 or more likely d1000 roll (those numbers are shown with one decimal) lets say player has crit chance of 20% and I increas her/his chance by another 2% if the roll is within 1-20 (the player would make critical hit regardless of my buff) nothing happen, but if the roll is between 20,1-22 I get credit for difference between players normal hit and critical hit (player strike for 1000dmg, if critical occur she/he strikes 1750 - let's say he/she has only 75% (base) critical sovereignty - she/he gets damage count of normal hit 1000 and I get the rest in this case 750)
-if multiple players increases my critical chance it would be as follows
-if the increase my crit chance by same amount the would share the damage gain by half
-if one of them increase my crit chance by more than other then (well this is easier to explain on example
lets say my crit base chance is 20%, one player increase it by 3%, other by 5% (so my actual crit chance is 28%) if the roll to determine critical hit is between 1-26 (add twice as much as the lower value to the players CC in this case 3%) both players gain half of the damage, if the roll is between 26,1-28 the player who increase my crit chance by higher value (in this case 5%) get whole credit
CRITICAL SOVEREIGNTY (CS) same as power - if I increase someone's CS and she/he lands a crit hit I get the difference between his normal crit damage and increased dmg (player strikes for 1000dmg, if crit for 1750 dmg, I increase his/her CS by 5% so the player crits for 1800 instead of 1750. So the player get credit for 1750 and I get the 50.
-if multiple players increase my CS, each of them gets their share based on the amount increased
COMBAT ADVANTAGE - if someone make me do combat advantage(CA) dmg on a situation I normally would do only normal damage they get credit for extra damage dealt
if multiple players are making me do CA they share the extra damage by half
RECOVERY - well I have no idea how to account for increased recovery/recharge speed, from what I can see from the game you make every aura from draconic set to give 3% and recharge speed 10% so this would suggest effect from recovery only has 0,3 value of any other skill, but in my point of view it's the most useless stat at all. I run CW (only like 17,5k GS)
with 500 recovery (I can't get it to 0 bah, well some if from my epic stone so...) with draconic set (because it's the only one not giving recovery despite it's set bonus it's the best choice and I can add glyphs for extra dmg, altho i don't use them - no need) and I do most dmg (or comparable) in all dungeons even if 20k GS players show up (except SWs, but they already fixed Tyranical Curse and I haven't met many of them after that change) and I always get great success in HE. There is no difference if some spell is usable every 12 or every 13 seconds, chances are you not gonna use it as soon as it's recharged, there is time delay between using skills so another time wasted and human reaction is just not that fast to benefit from decimals of second
ARMOR PENETRATION (AP) if i increase this stat and the armor of the target is higher than players base AP I get credit for the difference in damage I actually don't know how this stat work in a meaning of calculating the damage so lets say player has AP of 20%, I increase her/his AP by 2%, if the target's armor is up to 20% I get nothing, if it's more than 20% I get up to 2% of the AP effect (if it's 20,1% I get 0,1% if it's 22% or more I get the 2%)
-if multiple players increase my AP they share the credit like this
let's say I have base AP 20%, one player increase my AP by 1%, other by 3% (to a total of 24) if monsters damage reduction is between 20-21% they share the credit for the amount actually used by half (so if it's 20,5% I only needed increase my stat to do full damage by 0,5% so each of the players get's 0,25% increased damage)
if it's above 21% they share the credit by half to the value of lower stat increase and than the player with higher increase take the whole credit (so in this case first player would take 0,5% and second player up to 2,5% which would be when targets damage reduction would be 24% or higher)
DAMAGE HEALED
various of effect should count to this value, not only actually healed damage, from my point of view it's much more beneficial to prevent damage than to heal it
HEALING well same as now, if anyone actually heals someone she/he gets the credit
DEFENSE if I increase someone's defense and that player is hit a I get credit for "healing" the target by the amount of damage blocked (I would multiply the value by 1,1 or 1,25 cos not taking dmg is better than healing it)
-if multiple players are increasing my defense each get his/her share of the credit for damage "healed"
DEFLECTION - same as critical chance
LIFE STEAL - if someone increase my life steal and I am actually healed with the strike I land they get credit for healing me - same mechanics as POWER with one exception - if I would reach maximum health without any buff (other than self buff ofc) nobody gets extra credit but me (for self healing)
REGENERATION - same as LIFE STEAL
STUN/DAZE/KNOCKDOWN/FREEZE/pulling off robe and flashing enemies with your chest (probably wouldn't work on Dr. Sheldon C., but no power is perfect) - there should be some incentive based on average monsters damage per second. If I disable the monster I prevent it from doing dmg therefor I should get credit for it.
-if multiple players are incapacitating same monster at the same time, the one who used ability fist gets the full credit and if the effect last when the first ones crowd control effect wears off the other person gets credit for whatever time remaining (it's a waste of control skill cooldown to control already controlled monster and it's more beneficial to group if players do them in sequence rather than everyone use it at the same time)
REVIVING PLAYER is someone revieve me she/he deserve some sort of credit. I was thinking get 10-20% of all damage/healing I do for 10-20seconds after reviving
CASTING DEBUFF ON MONSTER - if monster has debuff on it and I hit it and the debuff effect increase my dmg by any way player/s who cast the debuff gets credit as if they increased my stat (aply cases above) if multiple debuffs affects the monster those players share the extra credit by mechanics described above.
RULE OF THE THUMB - if I someone use same buff/debuff as me and they don't stack, they won't get any credit. Credit for either healing/damage is given if their buff/debuff increase damage I dealt or decrease damage I take.
THE BEST PART of it is that you already have all numbers for these calculation cos you need to calculate players/monsters stats any given moment, you just distribute credit for damage/healing to different players.
it would be awesome, but not necessary if there would be upgraded damage meter - as Recount from WoW, that's the best addon ever made cos not only it shows me detailed info about my dmg (so I can see increase in percentage damage that my new enchant/pet I just bought for few mln AD does) it also allows me to see how other players are doing - in wow I could say where players make mistakes in playing their class just by looking at their skill usage info in Recount. And most of all if you are impressed by some players playstyle you can check what skills, how often he/she uses along with any possible effects like enchants, pets, damaging debuffs from skills etc which is VERY useful if you're planning on making alt
STEP 2
there is variety of skills, but I will never use most of them, some are meant for different build and some for pvp and since you don't have dual spec I HAVE to decide what I want to play more if pve or pvp and make adjustment to my feat tree and campaign feats(there is no way you expect me to change feats each time I sign for pvp). It's nearly impossible to beat player with same GS if he/she is in pvp build with pve build and that's discouraging players from playing pvp
solution - stop pretending you can scale class skills for both pve and pvp - it's impossible, Blizzard is trying to do that for (I think) 8 (or is it 9, bah not important) years now without success. Instead of making same mistake, make either of this
-each skill with have pvp and pve description and if player is flagged for pvp it will have the pvp effect (you already done that on few skills that in pve knockdown target in pvp they stun instead and you can do it for all skills so they would have different dmg in pvp and pve and/or different effect)
-separate skills and feats for pve and pvp - each class could have 2 pvp and 2 pve feat trees instead of 3 general that are now
by picking either of this you will make class balance MUCH easier cos you no longer need to worry about that increasing damage of certain skill for pve will have devastating effect on pvp (same with snare -crowd control- effects)
STEP 3
EMERGENCY BUFFS
if there is a situation while some class is significantly weaker in pve and it's not invited to parties (I guess you have count of classes played in dungeons) by the time you change dmg of some of that class skills (which needs weeks of testing) you can put on worldwide DUNGEON! buff that would either
-make whole party do 10% most dmg if they have this poor class in party (non stackable)
-make certain class/es (probably the most played) do 10% more dmg (non stackable)
you can cancel these buffs any given moment, you may call them favor of goddesses/gods which take pity on certain class and decide to benefit them - it's kinda of safety net if some class gets out of control
CONCLUSION
With these changes I believe you could manage classes much easier, it will encourage players to play more like a team, it will widen possibilities for classes and we will see more diversion in party composition (people will still take heavy hitters, but also look for a support class as well) because players will be able to see that even lower geared player with buff/debuff build can be a great help in high level dungeon
first of all I think classes are more balanced that players think (in PVE!!), but they simply don't see it because there is no proper tool for comparison all we have is damage/healing dealt which is misleading in form it is now.
As I see it now, most rewarding build for pve is pure dmg with minimum buffs/debuffs. The reason why is that system rewards me more if I do more damage than others (either if its great success in heroic encounter or leader position in damage dealt in dungeon/skrimishes) so if I place debuff on target or have some sort of buffing aura and other player benefit from it my own chances of achieving my goal are getting lower. And this is very bad. I would like to see more variation of builds but on the other hand why should a player chose a buff build and get no credit for it?
I put a lot of thought into a solution which would benefit support builds and show that classes are balanced (even very useful for devs to compare classes) and I came up with this -
STEP 1
make more sophisticated damage meter which would consider buffs/debuffs from other players. Performance in groups is the most important statistic for players playing PVE in MMORPG or else why would they farm higher gear score (GS)? They could just stick with 15-16k and say it's enough. But most players are trying to get best build, best gear and have best performance, that's the motivation of playing the game. With this change players will have wider choice of skills and equipment and if you would want to change ballance of classes you wouldn't necessary need to change the damage output.
I would add another tab to statistic window which could be called something like PARTY DAMAGE (it would be beneficial to have both damage windows) and I would suggest changes in granting damage/healing to players as follows
DAMAGE DEALT
if I increase someone's
POWER - I get credit for the difference between normal damage and increased damage (so player would do 100% damage without my buff, with my buff she/he does 105% so she/he gets credit for 100% and I get 5% of her/his attack counted as if I did the damage)
-if multiple players increase my power, each gets her/his increase share
CRITICAL CHANCE to determine if player critically hits, there is some d100 or more likely d1000 roll (those numbers are shown with one decimal) lets say player has crit chance of 20% and I increas her/his chance by another 2% if the roll is within 1-20 (the player would make critical hit regardless of my buff) nothing happen, but if the roll is between 20,1-22 I get credit for difference between players normal hit and critical hit (player strike for 1000dmg, if critical occur she/he strikes 1750 - let's say he/she has only 75% (base) critical sovereignty - she/he gets damage count of normal hit 1000 and I get the rest in this case 750)
-if multiple players increases my critical chance it would be as follows
-if the increase my crit chance by same amount the would share the damage gain by half
-if one of them increase my crit chance by more than other then (well this is easier to explain on example
lets say my crit base chance is 20%, one player increase it by 3%, other by 5% (so my actual crit chance is 28%) if the roll to determine critical hit is between 1-26 (add twice as much as the lower value to the players CC in this case 3%) both players gain half of the damage, if the roll is between 26,1-28 the player who increase my crit chance by higher value (in this case 5%) get whole credit
CRITICAL SOVEREIGNTY (CS) same as power - if I increase someone's CS and she/he lands a crit hit I get the difference between his normal crit damage and increased dmg (player strikes for 1000dmg, if crit for 1750 dmg, I increase his/her CS by 5% so the player crits for 1800 instead of 1750. So the player get credit for 1750 and I get the 50.
-if multiple players increase my CS, each of them gets their share based on the amount increased
COMBAT ADVANTAGE - if someone make me do combat advantage(CA) dmg on a situation I normally would do only normal damage they get credit for extra damage dealt
if multiple players are making me do CA they share the extra damage by half
RECOVERY - well I have no idea how to account for increased recovery/recharge speed, from what I can see from the game you make every aura from draconic set to give 3% and recharge speed 10% so this would suggest effect from recovery only has 0,3 value of any other skill, but in my point of view it's the most useless stat at all. I run CW (only like 17,5k GS)
with 500 recovery (I can't get it to 0 bah, well some if from my epic stone so...) with draconic set (because it's the only one not giving recovery despite it's set bonus it's the best choice and I can add glyphs for extra dmg, altho i don't use them - no need) and I do most dmg (or comparable) in all dungeons even if 20k GS players show up (except SWs, but they already fixed Tyranical Curse and I haven't met many of them after that change) and I always get great success in HE. There is no difference if some spell is usable every 12 or every 13 seconds, chances are you not gonna use it as soon as it's recharged, there is time delay between using skills so another time wasted and human reaction is just not that fast to benefit from decimals of second
ARMOR PENETRATION (AP) if i increase this stat and the armor of the target is higher than players base AP I get credit for the difference in damage I actually don't know how this stat work in a meaning of calculating the damage so lets say player has AP of 20%, I increase her/his AP by 2%, if the target's armor is up to 20% I get nothing, if it's more than 20% I get up to 2% of the AP effect (if it's 20,1% I get 0,1% if it's 22% or more I get the 2%)
-if multiple players increase my AP they share the credit like this
let's say I have base AP 20%, one player increase my AP by 1%, other by 3% (to a total of 24) if monsters damage reduction is between 20-21% they share the credit for the amount actually used by half (so if it's 20,5% I only needed increase my stat to do full damage by 0,5% so each of the players get's 0,25% increased damage)
if it's above 21% they share the credit by half to the value of lower stat increase and than the player with higher increase take the whole credit (so in this case first player would take 0,5% and second player up to 2,5% which would be when targets damage reduction would be 24% or higher)
DAMAGE HEALED
various of effect should count to this value, not only actually healed damage, from my point of view it's much more beneficial to prevent damage than to heal it
HEALING well same as now, if anyone actually heals someone she/he gets the credit
DEFENSE if I increase someone's defense and that player is hit a I get credit for "healing" the target by the amount of damage blocked (I would multiply the value by 1,1 or 1,25 cos not taking dmg is better than healing it)
-if multiple players are increasing my defense each get his/her share of the credit for damage "healed"
DEFLECTION - same as critical chance
LIFE STEAL - if someone increase my life steal and I am actually healed with the strike I land they get credit for healing me - same mechanics as POWER with one exception - if I would reach maximum health without any buff (other than self buff ofc) nobody gets extra credit but me (for self healing)
REGENERATION - same as LIFE STEAL
STUN/DAZE/KNOCKDOWN/FREEZE/pulling off robe and flashing enemies with your chest (probably wouldn't work on Dr. Sheldon C., but no power is perfect) - there should be some incentive based on average monsters damage per second. If I disable the monster I prevent it from doing dmg therefor I should get credit for it.
-if multiple players are incapacitating same monster at the same time, the one who used ability fist gets the full credit and if the effect last when the first ones crowd control effect wears off the other person gets credit for whatever time remaining (it's a waste of control skill cooldown to control already controlled monster and it's more beneficial to group if players do them in sequence rather than everyone use it at the same time)
REVIVING PLAYER is someone revieve me she/he deserve some sort of credit. I was thinking get 10-20% of all damage/healing I do for 10-20seconds after reviving
CASTING DEBUFF ON MONSTER - if monster has debuff on it and I hit it and the debuff effect increase my dmg by any way player/s who cast the debuff gets credit as if they increased my stat (aply cases above) if multiple debuffs affects the monster those players share the extra credit by mechanics described above.
RULE OF THE THUMB - if I someone use same buff/debuff as me and they don't stack, they won't get any credit. Credit for either healing/damage is given if their buff/debuff increase damage I dealt or decrease damage I take.
THE BEST PART of it is that you already have all numbers for these calculation cos you need to calculate players/monsters stats any given moment, you just distribute credit for damage/healing to different players.
it would be awesome, but not necessary if there would be upgraded damage meter - as Recount from WoW, that's the best addon ever made cos not only it shows me detailed info about my dmg (so I can see increase in percentage damage that my new enchant/pet I just bought for few mln AD does) it also allows me to see how other players are doing - in wow I could say where players make mistakes in playing their class just by looking at their skill usage info in Recount. And most of all if you are impressed by some players playstyle you can check what skills, how often he/she uses along with any possible effects like enchants, pets, damaging debuffs from skills etc which is VERY useful if you're planning on making alt
STEP 2
there is variety of skills, but I will never use most of them, some are meant for different build and some for pvp and since you don't have dual spec I HAVE to decide what I want to play more if pve or pvp and make adjustment to my feat tree and campaign feats(there is no way you expect me to change feats each time I sign for pvp). It's nearly impossible to beat player with same GS if he/she is in pvp build with pve build and that's discouraging players from playing pvp
solution - stop pretending you can scale class skills for both pve and pvp - it's impossible, Blizzard is trying to do that for (I think) 8 (or is it 9, bah not important) years now without success. Instead of making same mistake, make either of this
-each skill with have pvp and pve description and if player is flagged for pvp it will have the pvp effect (you already done that on few skills that in pve knockdown target in pvp they stun instead and you can do it for all skills so they would have different dmg in pvp and pve and/or different effect)
-separate skills and feats for pve and pvp - each class could have 2 pvp and 2 pve feat trees instead of 3 general that are now
by picking either of this you will make class balance MUCH easier cos you no longer need to worry about that increasing damage of certain skill for pve will have devastating effect on pvp (same with snare -crowd control- effects)
STEP 3
EMERGENCY BUFFS
if there is a situation while some class is significantly weaker in pve and it's not invited to parties (I guess you have count of classes played in dungeons) by the time you change dmg of some of that class skills (which needs weeks of testing) you can put on worldwide DUNGEON! buff that would either
-make whole party do 10% most dmg if they have this poor class in party (non stackable)
-make certain class/es (probably the most played) do 10% more dmg (non stackable)
you can cancel these buffs any given moment, you may call them favor of goddesses/gods which take pity on certain class and decide to benefit them - it's kinda of safety net if some class gets out of control
CONCLUSION
With these changes I believe you could manage classes much easier, it will encourage players to play more like a team, it will widen possibilities for classes and we will see more diversion in party composition (people will still take heavy hitters, but also look for a support class as well) because players will be able to see that even lower geared player with buff/debuff build can be a great help in high level dungeon
Post edited by liliadna on
0
Comments
Don't be the group's bish, problem solved.
While I agree with some of your points and disagree with others, the chance of any of this being implemented is less than zero. If they cannot fix broken dungeon chests for weeks or fix well known problems that have been around forever, I doubt they can implement anything you mentioned here.
Nah, the others are right, you just seem to care WAYY too much about your paingiver score... Alright, you feel like you're being sleighed by other DPS classes, we get it, doesn't mean we need to change the way damage is calculated (very dangerous thing to tinker with) so the game can know how much you're improving other people's damage so it can give you credit. The only thing this would help with is giving us another category to qualify for in HE's, that's IT.
you clearly hadn't read the my OP so I wonder what is your aim with your response
The issue is that you don't get credit so the dpsers think they are doing better than they are doing Hen they think the buffers are useless, which they are not.
In a group setting a good buff/rebuff dc does more for the team than any other class. Give your docs some love and say thank you.
Paingiver is the most flawed measure of value. If you ignore it you will do better.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
at least someone gets it :]
if I do 100k with ice knife crit (or more, not important...) the system doesn't reflect that HR is giving me combat advantage "aura" with their passive skill making me do 16% more dmg, that boss has been debuffed by other player and now it takes 10% more dmg, that my power/crit has been boosted (by other player) making me to another 5-10% more dmg and suddenly 40% of my dmg is not caused by me but by other players
but what do we see? by which standard players compare classes? it's the paingiver tab in damage meter, nothing else. Majority of threads on the forum is about that some class do low dmg (based on this very damage meter) and that some do high...
but even 13k buff build can provide more dmg than additional 20k dps build because this class can buff all other players or debuff bosses.
Therefor if measuring of classes/builds/players will change based on how useful they are to the party's overal performance rather than how much dmg they do monsters, all classes would be seen as comparable and there will be no "ideal" party composition made solely out of 1 GF/DC 4xCW/SW and sometimes GWF if no GF/DC is around
I think they are less balanced than people think. "How can you be a DPS class and deliver less than 20% of my damage when you have 5k more gs?" is a Shore Tuerm question. Guess which side of the question the CW was at.
well read the whole discussion or/and my OP and you find the answer