I have something like 2000 players on my friends list, i think more than half have quit, why? they outgear the content, they get bored and burned out. Ever run CN 1500 times, it's easy and you are like, well, maybe there should be a HARDER dungeon that is more fun and makes more ad?
yeah... that's most of the people i know in this game.
Yea, it's like thousand of ppl leaving and the casual that still play are saying: "We casuals, still can't outgear the content, so why Devs should worry?", if you are casual, if you play 2 days a week, or if you have long breaks then don't worry, you will still have challenge, but why are you saying that Devs should't add some harder content for a little more consistent player?, don't be so greedy, the 100% of this game is casual, make the 5% of the content aimed for a player that is a little more dedicated player who like to organize and communicate to defeat something challenging.
Reduce CW damage so that it is only higher than the DC. Until then, unreasonable amounts of control at no cost to damage will make it impossible for dungeon design to be fun and challenging.
Sorry if this harsh truth upsets anyone.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Reduce CW damage so that it is only higher than the DC. Until then, unreasonable amounts of control at no cost to damage will make it impossible for dungeon design to be fun and challenging.
Sorry if this harsh truth upsets anyone.
Not true.
CW CC is almost irrelevant in LoL. This is a step further in dungeon design. It includes immune mobs and one-shotting squishies that aggro them. If they continue on this path we can see from then on.
CW, controlling or not, is still a Wizard. I always said it is the Mage class of Neverwinter.
Anybody that played MMOs and in general RPGS knows that mages are:
- squishy
- have nasty CC
- and have nasty damage, usually the AoE type. Single target should be the Rogue territory.
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arontimesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yea, it's like thousand of ppl leaving and the casual that still play are saying: "We casuals, still can't outgear the content, so why Devs should worry?", if you are casual, if you play 2 days a week, or if you have long breaks then don't worry, you will still have challenge, but why are you saying that Devs should't add some harder content for a little more consistent player?, don't be so greedy, the 100% of this game is casual, make the 5% of the content aimed for a player that is a little more dedicated player who like to organize and communicate to defeat something challenging.
Let me go through your points one by one:
1. Thousands of people leave the game. Some come back, others don't. Thousands of people also join the game. Some stay, others don't. Most people are not hardcore gamers who play a single game for years on end nonstop. Even among those who consider themselves hardcore, there are some who do not devote their gaming time solely to one game.
2. Casual vs. hardcore isn't black and white; it's more like a spectrum. On a 10-point scale where 1 is casual and 10 is hardcore, I'd say I'm about a 7. While I do take breaks from the game, when I do play, I play several hours a day, every day. Granted, not all of that time is spent running dungeons or ganking people in PvP; I spend a lot of time talking to my guildies on TeamSpeak as well as chatting with other players in zone chat.
3. The dev team in Neverwinter is quite small compared to other titles. There is only so much stuff they can work on, and dedicating work hours to cater to the 1% of 1% of the player base doesn't make business sense. Even if they decided to go that route, the elite player base will simply find the easiest way to finish the content and complain when they quickly outgrow it. This group will never be satisfied so why bother trying to please a miniscule group of people who will never appreciate your work? That said, Cryptic has been slowly releasing ever-more-challenging content with each module, so they're not exactly throwing the elites under the bus, either.
5. As for the challenging part, there are many ways to challenge yourself in the game. I mentioned one earlier: helping an undergeared group run content properly, which you are apparently unwilling to do. You could also go for a self-imposed challenge of running weaker enchantments or no enchantments at all. I'm not impressed by an overgeared 20k party steamrolling through Castle Never, but what will impress me is a group that can complete Castle Never at or near the minimum gear score level without wiping a single time. Call it the Low Gear Score Challenge or something. And when a group does manage to do it, maybe up the ante by downgrading from perfects to greaters, greaters to normals, and so on, until no one is able to finish the dungeon.
Here's a link to some popular self-imposed challenges. Yes, I know it's TV Tropes, but it's one of the more useful and geniunely informative pages:
Cryptic experimented with adjustable difficulty in Champions. It flopped pretty hard. Its not been something they have shown any signs of trying again.
Number one issue is the loot. This is not a hardcore loot progression game. You can forget about having new or better loot for more difficult content. At best, a harder tier of content will simply give slightly better drop odds, and nothing more. Cryptic staff have gone on record stating that extra special loot for extra special difficulty is not a design philosophy of theirs. Gentleman Crush himself was directly responsible for stripping out all extra rewards from champions very hard settings.
The other issue was, even at its top..very hard setting. Champions scalable difficulty was still very easy. Cryptic has always had a casual leaning to their games. They arn't very good at pleasing the hardcore. And all their past attempts to do so have been disappointing.
So, consider all this when asking for something harder. Understand, that it most likely wont happen. If it happens it most likely wont be all that difficult or satisfying and there wont be any additional reason or reward for doing it. Personally, Id rather they focus other things, then something for the top tier players that, most likely, wont even satisfy them.
Well that sounds pretty bad and pessimistic but having played STO for two years I can only agree. The game gets easier after every update, power creep issues get addressed by crippling characters not to design content a fresh max level in green gear couldn't do right off the bat and slowly friends fade away and everyone eventually quits except the newer players. Well. Maybe they want the older players out once they've bought their fair share of lockboxes/ADs/gear. That's the only explanation.
Difficulty lies all in how a plan can go to hell in seconds. Meaning Crown Control attacks, prones, stuns, roots, staggers. A certain combination of enemies with complementary crowd control attacks can make a normal encounter challenging.
Cryptic has given every player a way to out gear the game. Whether by Boons, a ton of artifacts, Companion Active Bonuses, what have you.
Players that care for their characters are not going to strip them down just to have a challenge. Whether they bought their way into over-gearedness, or ground it out makes no difference. What does is the fact that the game hasn't kept up with the progression that the characters are capable of achieving.
When some guilds and certain channels have to advertise 'naked' runs, something is clearly wrong.
What I'm talking about is a new, higher difficulty in addition to the existing ones, so we have the normal, epic and legendary dungeons.
Those dungeons should have a difficulty no fresh of the hook lvl 60 character would be able to master, even when getting the boons. That means, a group of five characters which were played longer than two weeks should be necessary. The mobs should have a level of at least 70.
Also the equipment one would get from those shouldn't be so good that it gets easy to run those legendary dungeons. Better but not easy. The dungeons should at every time be a challenge for those gamers who really like to master higher difficulties.
So for example: all the dungeons we have till now and also upcoming ones implemented with a new additional difficulty, so normal and epic dungeons would still be there.
I think that would be a very good idea to animate people to keep playing the game
Yes, BUT:
The drops are exactly as the drops from epic.
This way 20 elite players with 20k GS can get their challenge, but they get the same reward as if they steamroll a epic T2.
You primarily asked about a challenge, not a ueber-reward.
Hardcore players want 10-man raids, new pvp modes and harder dungeons with guaranteed loot drops for profit so that these dungeons are farmable.
We got a lot of dailies in the 4 modules, how about some endgame content now?
It's not just hardcore that want raids. I've met plenty of casual players that enjoy playing in large groups because it's fun. It's soloists that don't like grouping for any reason that don't like raids. It's not a hardcore/casual issue.
You are asking for harder dungeons assuming that there is a significant number of 19-20k toons running around.
Which is not true.
A 19-20k toon is as rare as a belt drop from an epic HE
I was in PE a lot of time today.Lots of 13-15k toons.less 16-18k and 1 (one!) 21k CW.many overgeared players leave but this is not cause of the "boring easy" dungeons but because they get bored from the game in general.
These are how gamers react.They want new challenge and seek new games.It is not NW problem.
And the statement that content is too easy is not entirely true if you pug some skirmishes and dungeons.
epic Shores and LoL are pretty hard for a random pug even if its average gs is 18k+.
I runned maybe 12 epic shores today with random pugs in the 14-19k range.
It was not easy.The last boss can oneshot with critical any toon.140-210k damage can oneshot even a 21k toon.
And you want harder challenges?
Please do a test and pug for epic shores.And then tell us if it was so boring and easy for you.
Cause with a premade with one greater white glyph 17k dc ,2 16-18k Cws and a glyphed 17k GF all seem easy.
How about one 14k Tr ,2 15k HRs and squishy cws with out dc around?Now that is a challenge for you.
or better get form a group with out dc and gf and do it.it is not so easy as it looks.
And yes Kolevra is right.there is a very simple fix to make the content more challenging.A really easy solution .
Reduce the CW damage and boost their control.And then CN will be a challenge,any dung will be a challenge.
But the CW horde dominates this game and dictates its content its gamestyle and sadly,its forums..
I wouldn't mind a "hardcore" mode dungeon/adventure content, a mode which makes things more difficult and dangerous in a manner that makes sense -- not just 'hellish damage + insane defense/HP' mobs. Something that incorporates a lot of features in terms of "adventure", not just combat.
Stuff like:
When you die, you die -- can't revive, can't continue. Only option is to end the content, exit to normal mode, and try again from the beginning
All heals are heals over time
regen/lifesteal removed or greatly nerfed
possibility of "wounds" received during combat -- can't just simply shrug it off with a potion, and cannot be healed during combat. The wounds can be seriously debilitating and sometimes fatal if you're not careful. You'll need to be in camp zone, and be assisted by a class that can heal wounds
traps are deadly and random -- random with a logic, for example, at certain important defensive positions from the dungeon resident's perspective, treasure boxes, loot boxes, doorways, etc etc.. traps will be set randomly. Traps are dangerous and deadly, and no obvious visual queues. There's a reason why dungeoneering parties bring rogues.
lingering status effects like poison, sickness, wounds, etc..
mobs have better AI and priority. If the mobs is a type characterized as any form of sentient thinking, their aggro will instantly prioritize healers and spell casters when they see and witness it happening. Tanks will need to constantly draw up aggro-taking powers. Aggro generation rate of healing and spell casting will always be higher than from damage. Much the same, any type of sentient mob will also prioritize party members who are low in HP and in danger. Mobs without any sentient intelligence will simply observe normal AI logic
mobs are proportionately strengthened. damage and defense, ofcourse, but also against CCs. They will have different levels of CC resistances. Mobs will also often more CCs and activate quicker. No matter how powerful a player is, trying the "horde every mob you see and AoE it to death" tactic will be guaranteed a quick death and game-over.
player defense is proportionately adjusted. When caught without protective spells, cloth robes being hit by metal weapons or spells is gonna hurt a lot harder.
multi-objectives within dungeon, multi-zones, multi-endings
and of course, goodies that follow the completion of the dungeon/campaign/scenario or whatever: big loot, unique titles with real social effects - such as merchants offering discounts or items for sale that normal players cannot access, higher XP rewards, etc etc..
Basically, an action MMORPG that features many elements of TRPGs.
But of course, I don't think anything like that has a chance to be implemented. At the least it'd require people with experiences as playing out a GM for TRPG sessions, as well as styled in script/campaign creation, complete with freedom of creation that far surpasses what is allowed with the Foundry.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You are asking for harder dungeons assuming that there is a significant number of 19-20k toons running around.
Which is not true.
A 19-20k toon is as rare as a belt drop from an epic HE
I was in PE a lot of time today.Lots of 13-15k toons.less 16-18k and 1 (one!) 21k CW.many overgeared players leave but this is not cause of the "boring easy" dungeons but because they get bored from the game in general.
These are how gamers react.They want new challenge and seek new games.It is not NW problem.
And the statement that content is too easy is not entirely true if you pug some skirmishes and dungeons.
epic Shores and LoL are pretty hard for a random pug even if its average gs is 18k+.
I runned maybe 12 epic shores today with random pugs in the 14-19k range.
It was not easy.The last boss can oneshot with critical any toon.140-210k damage can oneshot even a 21k toon.
And you want harder challenges?
Please do a test and pug for epic shores.And then tell us if it was so boring and easy for you.
Cause with a premade with one greater white glyph 17k dc ,2 16-18k Cws and a glyphed 17k GF all seem easy.
How about one 14k Tr ,2 15k HRs and squishy cws with out dc around?Now that is a challenge for you.
or better get form a group with out dc and gf and do it.it is not so easy as it looks.
And yes Kolevra is right.there is a very simple fix to make the content more challenging.A really easy solution .
Reduce the CW damage and boost their control.And then CN will be a challenge,any dung will be a challenge.
But the CW horde dominates this game and dictates its content its gamestyle and sadly,its forums..
Pfff
Ok, I will say it like for the 101230123012 time.
FROM 16K GS EVERY DUNGEON BECOMES A JOKE, IT'S NOT A 20-21K GS ISSUE.
About the Shore, just bring 1 protector GF and it will be easy.
Yes, BUT:
The drops are exactly as the drops from epic.
This way 20 elite players with 20k GS can get their challenge, but they get the same reward as if they steamroll a epic T2.
You primarily asked about a challenge, not a ueber-reward.
There needs to be incentive to do it. Look at epic dread vault. The hardest dungeon in the game and no one did it, because why? Though of course there was the odd time people would do it just out of satisfaction of beating it. but you don't really want to put so much effort into making/remaking dungeons that only get played once. That's like restricting replayability by lowing drop rates of new dungeons and making 90% of the loot bop. Oh...
done a few epic Shores/LoL and i simply don't get how THAT is not difficult enough.
shores has gf cultists 1-shotting the second they reach you, so you can never stop next to one. barbarians also dish out large amounts of damage that nobody can keep up with. final boss also has a 1-shot that you can barely dodge since the only sign it's coming is due to his attack order.
LoL is easy up to the final boss where a whole bunch of problems came up. laser eyes can not be dodged as a warlock and even with shift, it's still 32k damage while i only have 24k hp. once the dragon flies back down, his roar causes a death-chain in which several aoes will inevitable kill you. the kicker is that laser eyes can kill you at the campfire area lol. also had a rogue use deft strike right from the start, flipped the dragon, and a couple of us died from the tail swipe that swung down 2 seconds after we entered the arena.....like who would have seen that coming?
done a few epic Shores/LoL and i simply don't get how THAT is not difficult enough.
shores has gf cultists 1-shotting the second they reach you, so you can never stop next to one. barbarians also dish out large amounts of damage that nobody can keep up with. final boss also has a 1-shot that you can barely dodge since the only sign it's coming is due to his attack order.
LoL is easy up to the final boss where a whole bunch of problems came up. laser eyes can not be dodged as a warlock and even with shift, it's still 32k damage while i only have 24k hp. once the dragon flies back down, his roar causes a death-chain in which several aoes will inevitable kill you. the kicker is that laser eyes can kill you at the campfire area lol. also had a rogue use deft strike right from the start, flipped the dragon, and a couple of us died from the tail swipe that swung down 2 seconds after we entered the arena.....like who would have seen that coming?
Umm, this is off topic but you might want to seek some help for your SW. 24k hp on a SW is wrong. You should have 30k without trying.
Umm, this is off topic but you might want to seek some help for your SW. 24k hp on a SW is wrong. You should have 30k without trying.
maybe when built for high hp i guess, but definitely gonna take more than rank 5-6 radiants. still gonna get 1-shot by every single mob at 30k. 1 thing for sure is that 17 con is nowhere near sufficient for that standard.
Suggestion:
the closer you are to the minimum GS the higher the chance to get a drop (maybe even not bound) from the chest at the end of the dungeon.
would probalby increase the attractiveness of GS scaled to the dungeon as such.
This would basically be usefull, as a 8k dude most probably is in the dung for the items as such, and it might give some 21k dudes to scale down a bit.
And even if there would be an legendary dingeon, we would read the next day "increase drop rate", "<insert class> drops are not worth it", etc. etc.
meaning, people want to wine, so let them, That what the forum is for anyway. You thought the forum might be for reprting bugs to be fixed? RTI the world! 18 months running and still accellerating!
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
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arontimesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2014
It's pretty obvious by now that the complainers don't really want a challenge. They simply want bigger numbers on their character sheets. If they truly cared about finding a challenge, they would've done one of the dozens of examples on the link I provided in my last post. There's more to rewards than numerical gear score increases; reputation and renown are something you cannot buy nor grind your way to earn.
It's pretty obvious by now that the complainers don't really want a challenge. They simply want bigger numbers on their character sheets. If they truly cared about finding a challenge, they would've done one of the dozens of examples on the link I provided in my last post. There's more to rewards than numerical gear score increases; reputation and renown are something you cannot buy nor grind your way to earn.
I want challenge, if it was for me I could even accept the same drops from the T2 dungeons, just make harder contet.
And not, I don't find logical to go naked or join a 8K GS group to fit the content, they should make content for every stage of the players, and there isn't for the gap between 14K-16k to 21K
I mean, you know the word progression, right?, the thing that is one of the main theme in a MMORPG... and that make you feel proud of you and your team when you are able to defeat the hardest dungeons with good gear and comunication.
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
maybe when built for high hp i guess, but definitely gonna take more than rank 5-6 radiants. still gonna get 1-shot by every single mob at 30k. 1 thing for sure is that 17 con is nowhere near sufficient for that standard.
Even as a Fury SW you should not be 1-hitted, while as a Temptation SW you should be able to face-tank 1 scorpion. The last boss of E.LoL is not hard it's frustrating, because the timing issue on the attacks (some attacks hit before the red appears). There's a big difference between hard & challenging and frustrating.
On-topic:
Every successful MMO is designed for the mid-core, Neverwinter was too at launch, but after mod 2, the power of the characters, esp DPS classes, went up considerably, thanks to the artifacts and companion active bonuses, yet the dungeons introduced with mod 2 and upwards were designed for players that do not take advantage of the new items.
Up until mod 2 dungeons were challenging if you didn't exploit, but the (almost) doubling of max GS since then, allowed for builds that can dish out 2x more dmg while having 2+ times improved survivability. How many CWs have you seen pre-mod2 with 5-10% LS and/or 25k+ HP? How many ppl could solo/duo CN w/o exploits?
Also, let's not forget about the Soulforged rework, which by itself made dungeon-runs a lot easier for squishy classes.
We need new content designed once again for the mid-core. The original dungeons were designed for 12k players, but today you can have more than that with 100k AD (couple of days of dailies) invested in your toon. The dungeon design is improving, but it's still far from requiring teamwork, and farmability (prob not a word) is actually decreasing, since the new dungeons rely on RNG.
fools rush out, spend mega bucks, grind for hours so they can get all the uber items in the game in 20min. Looks good on all of you that are bored now because there is nothing to do. Serves you right for being greedy and selfish.
fools rush out, spend mega bucks, grind for hours so they can get all the uber items in the game in 20min. Looks good on all of you that are bored now because there is nothing to do. Serves you right for being greedy and selfish.
I just cant believe the stuff you read here. So Mr. bobherkamer, yeah the bad people that spend money and finance the game. They deserve to be let down by the developers who depend on them.
Selfish and greedy? Im sorry it is just obvious that you are super jealous my friend - of clever people selling and buying items at the right time or people that dont have that much time and pay real money (which is very legitimate in my view allthough i dont do it). If you dont like the system go to a game with monthly suscription.
This is pathetic. I get the feeling that there are lots of people writing here that arent playing for long. IF you dont have any Toons 14k+ or play longer than 5 month than stay out of this discussion. Yeah Elitist, the word comes to mind. But it is actually not that elitist. Nearly everybody is part of the "Elite" now. You notice that most T2 runs in Lfg require 14k+? The developers can very well see for themselves what the average Gearscore is and can decide if its worth creating new content for the high end population. There are people here playing here for over a year. What do you say to them? Leave to another game? And i bet none of you smart*peeep* run dungeons regulary with blues while you have a full T2 set at hand or better.
"Fact is 90% of the players are casual" So where did you get that "fact" from? Its just makebelieve. A discussion over the course of this whole thing is nescecarry. The people who are very active and carry this game are all above 14 - 15k. I think it is good to have a mixture of casual an non casual gamers. That 90% are casual gamers (pretending this is true) is not a reason against harder content it actually is in favour. Because than people might come back an create a more healthy balance in terms of playstyles.
I play for 1 year now (Didnt spend a single Euro) and have multiple toons. The highest toon is at 16,5k and 15k. I earned my AD through trading and using it wisely. I like challenges but even the challenge to catch up with the real money population can not fullfill me anymore.
As far as i understand you people against harder content, you would like to be able to reach the Endgame in reasonable time. Thats legitimate. BUT when you get there, will you dress in blues? Will you be satisfied? No no, you will miss something. The feeling of challenge that lies ahead.
I want challenge, if it was for me I could even accept the same drops from the T2 dungeons, just make harder contet.
And not, I don't find logical to go naked or join a 8K GS group to fit the content, they should make content for every stage of the players, and there isn't for the gap between 14K-16k to 21K
I mean, you know the word progression, right?, the thing that is one of the main theme in a MMORPG... and that make you feel proud of you and your team when you are able to defeat the hardest dungeons with good gear and comunication.
Here is the thing, first off, this game is not a progression MMO. This is clearly obvious due to gear design. None of the new gear with each expansion has been clearly better then any other set. In most cases, new gear is less effective. This game is about character progression via reputation and boons, NOT gear progression. So expecting the game to be something its not, can only lead to frustration.
Secondly, the devs have been trying to make the content difficult. With each expansion, each new dungeon requires a higher gear score or entry requirement. Indicating a higher difficulty. What you are seeing, and quickly dismissing, IS THEIR BEST ATTEMPT AT DIFFICULT CONTENT. Let that statement sink in for a minute. The level of challenge you want to see simply wont happen. Either due to design choices or developer limitations.
Here is the thing, first off, this game is not a progression MMO. This is clearly obvious due to gear design. None of the new gear with each expansion has been clearly better then any other set. In most cases, new gear is less effective. This game is about character progression via reputation and boons, NOT gear progression.
This is the reason that made me stop complaining about PvE difficulty.
I noticed this game does not focus in this kind of gameplay. Finishing dungeons and skirmishes isn't an achievement here.
Prove you are skilled and not just geared. Run dungeons with below the GS entry limits. If you can't, you're just geared, which anyone can be without skill. The more skilled you are, the further you can run the dungeon under the GS limit.
fools rush out, spend mega bucks, grind for hours so they can get all the uber items in the game in 20min. Looks good on all of you that are bored now because there is nothing to do. Serves you right for being greedy and selfish.
Oh it's not about being "greedy and selfish". It's about people who expect this game to be something other than what it is. sockmunkey had it right, this game is not a gear progression game. It is a buffet. You can pick from a range of options of things to do.
And those complaining that the PVE is "too easy", then seriously, pug Epic Shores 10 times in a row, particularly during skirmish hour. You will find players that repeatedly wipe at final boss, that ragequit because they can't do it, that don't understand the mechanics of the boss, and that really really struggle with this content that is supposedly "too easy". EVEN IF your pug is lucky enough to have a GF and/or a DC. (In one epic Shores run I pugged, at the final boss, the GF was the first to die!) And they are not undergeared players, the minimum entry requirement is 13k, and most will be in the 15k-17k range.
If you do this 10 times in a row, and you see that players who are not poorly geared have a hard time with the new content, then maybe you might understand that your experience is not representative of the typical NW player.
If you do this 10 times in a row, and you see that players who are not poorly geared have a hard time with the new content, then maybe you might understand that your experience is not representative of the typical NW player.
Do not confuse "high GS" with "not poorly geared". Plenty of 22k HP 18k GS braggarts are dying to trash in this particular fire.
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bajornorbertMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 272Arc User
Prove you are skilled and not just geared. Run dungeons with below the GS entry limits. If you can't, you're just geared, which anyone can be without skill. The more skilled you are, the further you can run the dungeon under the GS limit.
I suppose that's a mistype, since you can't even enter the dungeon below min GS. That's called hacking, not challenge.
Even as a Fury SW you should not be 1-hitted, while as a Temptation SW you should be able to face-tank 1 scorpion. The last boss of E.LoL is not hard it's frustrating, because the timing issue on the attacks (some attacks hit before the red appears). There's a big difference between hard & challenging and frustrating.
i checked a few wizards/warlocks to find just 1 with 30k hp in pvp. only 1 wizard had 29k hp, but had legend everything and rank 9 radiants but 2 less con than me.
also checked all the warlock guides and only 1 had 30k+ hp pic, but i don't see how that person achieved 35k even after adding it all up. exact same gear except for the corrupt accessories (belt giving 750 hp), dragon arty, gwf arty (660-1800 hp), hubris weapon arty, and fallen dragon off-hand. altogether, 1310-2550 hp in gear, 1,980 hp from rank 10 brutals, and +14% hp from con. even with the higher con, that person somehow has 11k hp more than me with 4,530 extra hp total and 3k hp or so from con affecting base hp.
i know gear is affected by con, but not in a way that follows math for some reason. my belt gives me 659 hp (600 base) with 14% extra hp in con and 9% extra hp from feats. the calc comes back as 9.8% which is neither.
Comments
Yea, it's like thousand of ppl leaving and the casual that still play are saying: "We casuals, still can't outgear the content, so why Devs should worry?", if you are casual, if you play 2 days a week, or if you have long breaks then don't worry, you will still have challenge, but why are you saying that Devs should't add some harder content for a little more consistent player?, don't be so greedy, the 100% of this game is casual, make the 5% of the content aimed for a player that is a little more dedicated player who like to organize and communicate to defeat something challenging.
Sorry if this harsh truth upsets anyone.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Not true.
CW CC is almost irrelevant in LoL. This is a step further in dungeon design. It includes immune mobs and one-shotting squishies that aggro them. If they continue on this path we can see from then on.
CW, controlling or not, is still a Wizard. I always said it is the Mage class of Neverwinter.
Anybody that played MMOs and in general RPGS knows that mages are:
- squishy
- have nasty CC
- and have nasty damage, usually the AoE type. Single target should be the Rogue territory.
Let me go through your points one by one:
1. Thousands of people leave the game. Some come back, others don't. Thousands of people also join the game. Some stay, others don't. Most people are not hardcore gamers who play a single game for years on end nonstop. Even among those who consider themselves hardcore, there are some who do not devote their gaming time solely to one game.
2. Casual vs. hardcore isn't black and white; it's more like a spectrum. On a 10-point scale where 1 is casual and 10 is hardcore, I'd say I'm about a 7. While I do take breaks from the game, when I do play, I play several hours a day, every day. Granted, not all of that time is spent running dungeons or ganking people in PvP; I spend a lot of time talking to my guildies on TeamSpeak as well as chatting with other players in zone chat.
3. The dev team in Neverwinter is quite small compared to other titles. There is only so much stuff they can work on, and dedicating work hours to cater to the 1% of 1% of the player base doesn't make business sense. Even if they decided to go that route, the elite player base will simply find the easiest way to finish the content and complain when they quickly outgrow it. This group will never be satisfied so why bother trying to please a miniscule group of people who will never appreciate your work? That said, Cryptic has been slowly releasing ever-more-challenging content with each module, so they're not exactly throwing the elites under the bus, either.
5. As for the challenging part, there are many ways to challenge yourself in the game. I mentioned one earlier: helping an undergeared group run content properly, which you are apparently unwilling to do. You could also go for a self-imposed challenge of running weaker enchantments or no enchantments at all. I'm not impressed by an overgeared 20k party steamrolling through Castle Never, but what will impress me is a group that can complete Castle Never at or near the minimum gear score level without wiping a single time. Call it the Low Gear Score Challenge or something. And when a group does manage to do it, maybe up the ante by downgrading from perfects to greaters, greaters to normals, and so on, until no one is able to finish the dungeon.
Here's a link to some popular self-imposed challenges. Yes, I know it's TV Tropes, but it's one of the more useful and geniunely informative pages:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfImposedChallenge
Taking a break from Neverwinter indefinitely...
Well that sounds pretty bad and pessimistic but having played STO for two years I can only agree. The game gets easier after every update, power creep issues get addressed by crippling characters not to design content a fresh max level in green gear couldn't do right off the bat and slowly friends fade away and everyone eventually quits except the newer players. Well. Maybe they want the older players out once they've bought their fair share of lockboxes/ADs/gear. That's the only explanation.
Players that care for their characters are not going to strip them down just to have a challenge. Whether they bought their way into over-gearedness, or ground it out makes no difference. What does is the fact that the game hasn't kept up with the progression that the characters are capable of achieving.
When some guilds and certain channels have to advertise 'naked' runs, something is clearly wrong.
The drops are exactly as the drops from epic.
This way 20 elite players with 20k GS can get their challenge, but they get the same reward as if they steamroll a epic T2.
You primarily asked about a challenge, not a ueber-reward.
It's not just hardcore that want raids. I've met plenty of casual players that enjoy playing in large groups because it's fun. It's soloists that don't like grouping for any reason that don't like raids. It's not a hardcore/casual issue.
Which is not true.
A 19-20k toon is as rare as a belt drop from an epic HE
I was in PE a lot of time today.Lots of 13-15k toons.less 16-18k and 1 (one!) 21k CW.many overgeared players leave but this is not cause of the "boring easy" dungeons but because they get bored from the game in general.
These are how gamers react.They want new challenge and seek new games.It is not NW problem.
And the statement that content is too easy is not entirely true if you pug some skirmishes and dungeons.
epic Shores and LoL are pretty hard for a random pug even if its average gs is 18k+.
I runned maybe 12 epic shores today with random pugs in the 14-19k range.
It was not easy.The last boss can oneshot with critical any toon.140-210k damage can oneshot even a 21k toon.
And you want harder challenges?
Please do a test and pug for epic shores.And then tell us if it was so boring and easy for you.
Cause with a premade with one greater white glyph 17k dc ,2 16-18k Cws and a glyphed 17k GF all seem easy.
How about one 14k Tr ,2 15k HRs and squishy cws with out dc around?Now that is a challenge for you.
or better get form a group with out dc and gf and do it.it is not so easy as it looks.
And yes Kolevra is right.there is a very simple fix to make the content more challenging.A really easy solution .
Reduce the CW damage and boost their control.And then CN will be a challenge,any dung will be a challenge.
But the CW horde dominates this game and dictates its content its gamestyle and sadly,its forums..
Pfff
Stuff like:
When you die, you die -- can't revive, can't continue. Only option is to end the content, exit to normal mode, and try again from the beginning
All heals are heals over time
regen/lifesteal removed or greatly nerfed
possibility of "wounds" received during combat -- can't just simply shrug it off with a potion, and cannot be healed during combat. The wounds can be seriously debilitating and sometimes fatal if you're not careful. You'll need to be in camp zone, and be assisted by a class that can heal wounds
traps are deadly and random -- random with a logic, for example, at certain important defensive positions from the dungeon resident's perspective, treasure boxes, loot boxes, doorways, etc etc.. traps will be set randomly. Traps are dangerous and deadly, and no obvious visual queues. There's a reason why dungeoneering parties bring rogues.
lingering status effects like poison, sickness, wounds, etc..
mobs have better AI and priority. If the mobs is a type characterized as any form of sentient thinking, their aggro will instantly prioritize healers and spell casters when they see and witness it happening. Tanks will need to constantly draw up aggro-taking powers. Aggro generation rate of healing and spell casting will always be higher than from damage. Much the same, any type of sentient mob will also prioritize party members who are low in HP and in danger. Mobs without any sentient intelligence will simply observe normal AI logic
mobs are proportionately strengthened. damage and defense, ofcourse, but also against CCs. They will have different levels of CC resistances. Mobs will also often more CCs and activate quicker. No matter how powerful a player is, trying the "horde every mob you see and AoE it to death" tactic will be guaranteed a quick death and game-over.
player defense is proportionately adjusted. When caught without protective spells, cloth robes being hit by metal weapons or spells is gonna hurt a lot harder.
multi-objectives within dungeon, multi-zones, multi-endings
and of course, goodies that follow the completion of the dungeon/campaign/scenario or whatever: big loot, unique titles with real social effects - such as merchants offering discounts or items for sale that normal players cannot access, higher XP rewards, etc etc..
Basically, an action MMORPG that features many elements of TRPGs.
But of course, I don't think anything like that has a chance to be implemented.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Ok, I will say it like for the 101230123012 time.
FROM 16K GS EVERY DUNGEON BECOMES A JOKE, IT'S NOT A 20-21K GS ISSUE.
About the Shore, just bring 1 protector GF and it will be easy.
I'd say 14k myself.
There needs to be incentive to do it. Look at epic dread vault. The hardest dungeon in the game and no one did it, because why? Though of course there was the odd time people would do it just out of satisfaction of beating it. but you don't really want to put so much effort into making/remaking dungeons that only get played once. That's like restricting replayability by lowing drop rates of new dungeons and making 90% of the loot bop. Oh...
shores has gf cultists 1-shotting the second they reach you, so you can never stop next to one. barbarians also dish out large amounts of damage that nobody can keep up with. final boss also has a 1-shot that you can barely dodge since the only sign it's coming is due to his attack order.
LoL is easy up to the final boss where a whole bunch of problems came up. laser eyes can not be dodged as a warlock and even with shift, it's still 32k damage while i only have 24k hp. once the dragon flies back down, his roar causes a death-chain in which several aoes will inevitable kill you. the kicker is that laser eyes can kill you at the campfire area lol. also had a rogue use deft strike right from the start, flipped the dragon, and a couple of us died from the tail swipe that swung down 2 seconds after we entered the arena.....like who would have seen that coming?
Umm, this is off topic but you might want to seek some help for your SW. 24k hp on a SW is wrong. You should have 30k without trying.
maybe when built for high hp i guess, but definitely gonna take more than rank 5-6 radiants. still gonna get 1-shot by every single mob at 30k. 1 thing for sure is that 17 con is nowhere near sufficient for that standard.
the closer you are to the minimum GS the higher the chance to get a drop (maybe even not bound) from the chest at the end of the dungeon.
would probalby increase the attractiveness of GS scaled to the dungeon as such.
This would basically be usefull, as a 8k dude most probably is in the dung for the items as such, and it might give some 21k dudes to scale down a bit.
And even if there would be an legendary dingeon, we would read the next day "increase drop rate", "<insert class> drops are not worth it", etc. etc.
meaning, people want to wine, so let them, That what the forum is for anyway. You thought the forum might be for reprting bugs to be fixed? RTI the world! 18 months running and still accellerating!
Taking a break from Neverwinter indefinitely...
I want challenge, if it was for me I could even accept the same drops from the T2 dungeons, just make harder contet.
And not, I don't find logical to go naked or join a 8K GS group to fit the content, they should make content for every stage of the players, and there isn't for the gap between 14K-16k to 21K
I mean, you know the word progression, right?, the thing that is one of the main theme in a MMORPG... and that make you feel proud of you and your team when you are able to defeat the hardest dungeons with good gear and comunication.
Even as a Fury SW you should not be 1-hitted, while as a Temptation SW you should be able to face-tank 1 scorpion. The last boss of E.LoL is not hard it's frustrating, because the timing issue on the attacks (some attacks hit before the red appears). There's a big difference between hard & challenging and frustrating.
On-topic:
Every successful MMO is designed for the mid-core, Neverwinter was too at launch, but after mod 2, the power of the characters, esp DPS classes, went up considerably, thanks to the artifacts and companion active bonuses, yet the dungeons introduced with mod 2 and upwards were designed for players that do not take advantage of the new items.
Up until mod 2 dungeons were challenging if you didn't exploit, but the (almost) doubling of max GS since then, allowed for builds that can dish out 2x more dmg while having 2+ times improved survivability. How many CWs have you seen pre-mod2 with 5-10% LS and/or 25k+ HP? How many ppl could solo/duo CN w/o exploits?
Also, let's not forget about the Soulforged rework, which by itself made dungeon-runs a lot easier for squishy classes.
We need new content designed once again for the mid-core. The original dungeons were designed for 12k players, but today you can have more than that with 100k AD (couple of days of dailies) invested in your toon. The dungeon design is improving, but it's still far from requiring teamwork, and farmability (prob not a word) is actually decreasing, since the new dungeons rely on RNG.
I just cant believe the stuff you read here. So Mr. bobherkamer, yeah the bad people that spend money and finance the game. They deserve to be let down by the developers who depend on them.
Selfish and greedy? Im sorry it is just obvious that you are super jealous my friend - of clever people selling and buying items at the right time or people that dont have that much time and pay real money (which is very legitimate in my view allthough i dont do it). If you dont like the system go to a game with monthly suscription.
This is pathetic. I get the feeling that there are lots of people writing here that arent playing for long. IF you dont have any Toons 14k+ or play longer than 5 month than stay out of this discussion. Yeah Elitist, the word comes to mind. But it is actually not that elitist. Nearly everybody is part of the "Elite" now. You notice that most T2 runs in Lfg require 14k+? The developers can very well see for themselves what the average Gearscore is and can decide if its worth creating new content for the high end population. There are people here playing here for over a year. What do you say to them? Leave to another game? And i bet none of you smart*peeep* run dungeons regulary with blues while you have a full T2 set at hand or better.
"Fact is 90% of the players are casual" So where did you get that "fact" from? Its just makebelieve. A discussion over the course of this whole thing is nescecarry. The people who are very active and carry this game are all above 14 - 15k. I think it is good to have a mixture of casual an non casual gamers. That 90% are casual gamers (pretending this is true) is not a reason against harder content it actually is in favour. Because than people might come back an create a more healthy balance in terms of playstyles.
I play for 1 year now (Didnt spend a single Euro) and have multiple toons. The highest toon is at 16,5k and 15k. I earned my AD through trading and using it wisely. I like challenges but even the challenge to catch up with the real money population can not fullfill me anymore.
As far as i understand you people against harder content, you would like to be able to reach the Endgame in reasonable time. Thats legitimate. BUT when you get there, will you dress in blues? Will you be satisfied? No no, you will miss something. The feeling of challenge that lies ahead.
Here is the thing, first off, this game is not a progression MMO. This is clearly obvious due to gear design. None of the new gear with each expansion has been clearly better then any other set. In most cases, new gear is less effective. This game is about character progression via reputation and boons, NOT gear progression. So expecting the game to be something its not, can only lead to frustration.
Secondly, the devs have been trying to make the content difficult. With each expansion, each new dungeon requires a higher gear score or entry requirement. Indicating a higher difficulty. What you are seeing, and quickly dismissing, IS THEIR BEST ATTEMPT AT DIFFICULT CONTENT. Let that statement sink in for a minute. The level of challenge you want to see simply wont happen. Either due to design choices or developer limitations.
This is the reason that made me stop complaining about PvE difficulty.
I noticed this game does not focus in this kind of gameplay. Finishing dungeons and skirmishes isn't an achievement here.
Oh it's not about being "greedy and selfish". It's about people who expect this game to be something other than what it is. sockmunkey had it right, this game is not a gear progression game. It is a buffet. You can pick from a range of options of things to do.
And those complaining that the PVE is "too easy", then seriously, pug Epic Shores 10 times in a row, particularly during skirmish hour. You will find players that repeatedly wipe at final boss, that ragequit because they can't do it, that don't understand the mechanics of the boss, and that really really struggle with this content that is supposedly "too easy". EVEN IF your pug is lucky enough to have a GF and/or a DC. (In one epic Shores run I pugged, at the final boss, the GF was the first to die!) And they are not undergeared players, the minimum entry requirement is 13k, and most will be in the 15k-17k range.
If you do this 10 times in a row, and you see that players who are not poorly geared have a hard time with the new content, then maybe you might understand that your experience is not representative of the typical NW player.
Do not confuse "high GS" with "not poorly geared". Plenty of 22k HP 18k GS braggarts are dying to trash in this particular fire.
I suppose that's a mistype, since you can't even enter the dungeon below min GS. That's called hacking, not challenge.
i checked a few wizards/warlocks to find just 1 with 30k hp in pvp. only 1 wizard had 29k hp, but had legend everything and rank 9 radiants but 2 less con than me.
also checked all the warlock guides and only 1 had 30k+ hp pic, but i don't see how that person achieved 35k even after adding it all up. exact same gear except for the corrupt accessories (belt giving 750 hp), dragon arty, gwf arty (660-1800 hp), hubris weapon arty, and fallen dragon off-hand. altogether, 1310-2550 hp in gear, 1,980 hp from rank 10 brutals, and +14% hp from con. even with the higher con, that person somehow has 11k hp more than me with 4,530 extra hp total and 3k hp or so from con affecting base hp.
i know gear is affected by con, but not in a way that follows math for some reason. my belt gives me 659 hp (600 base) with 14% extra hp in con and 9% extra hp from feats. the calc comes back as 9.8% which is neither.