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Let's Talk Druids
harnel
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The idea of this thread is to work out the ins and outs of a potential druid class. I've got an idea on how to make a unique, effective druid that can advance either along a path to being a wildshape focused, damage casting, or control and buffing. I'd appreciate constructive comments and suggestions in regards to the ideas I've got, as if we work out something that we all want to see coming, who knows? The devs may agree with us and implement the ideas.
So, without further ado, let's get started shall we?
Weapon Selection:
In 4e DnD, druids utilize Staves and totems as their implements of choice. I've always imagined a man or woman in furs with a gnarled walking stick as the classic druid appearance, so the staff definitely has my vote over a totem. Besides, a totem feels just too similar to the cleric holy symbol to me.
Armor Design:
This should be pretty obvious, I think. The devs got a lot of experience designing more barbaric armor for the various barbarians out in Icewind Dale, and even the new shaman companion, so furs and the like seem like an obvious choice. Perhaps with animal head helmets and hoods. Now, obviously, not all armor would have the wilderness feel to it; I can't see any druid thayan gear not having that egyptian theme they all have going for them, and egyptian style always has clear cut lines rather than rustic design.
Class Mechanic:
So, I was having trouble making this unique from the ranger for a while. I know tons of us would love wildshape as a tab ability for this class, so that's the idea I wanted to run with, but I had a lot of trouble figuring out how to make it different from the ranger tab ability, which is also a stance switch. The solution I came up with isn't swapping your powers.
Here's the idea; a druid would have four forms to choose from. They'd have their base form, which you'd choose at character creation. a Half-orc, a human, stuff like that. this form works as standard; you slot in the different powers you want to use, cooldowns, yadda yadda. At level 10 though, you unlock three different wildshape forms that you slot into a special tab slot that only accepts these three form powers. These wildshape forms would replace your current selection of encounter and at-will powers with a predefined list, usable only in this form.
The first form would be a wolf. The idea is this is the "controller" form. the powers would revolve around proning, stunning, or otherwise tripping up your opponents; one idea is a dazing howl, to affect an AoE, and a bite attack that prones. The second form is that of a large cat - maybe a panther or something - and this would be the striker form. perhaps a power to close to melee, and all sorts of strong damage focus. The third form would be that of a bear, for the purposes of drawing aggro and resisting damage.
In this way, you could build a druid in any of three ways; As a pseudo-tank that has some control spells, a full controller, or a DPS character with some control abilities.
You could also include a daily power that includes a change to the wildshape power, briefly changing form to an elemental instead; a water elemental for the wolf (cold control, after all), fire for the cat (so much damage), and earth for a bear (tanking at its finest).
Paragon Trees:
We learned with the ranger that players don't particularly like playing classes where they need to swap between stances, instead preferring to stick to one stance for the most part, and we can actually work that directly into the class here. I propose the three different paragon feat trees be as follows.
The first tree would be all about your wildshape form, adding utility to the encounter powers of the various wildshape forms. for example a feat that adds more aggro or regen to the bear form, or a feat that adds control duration to the wolf. the Capstone may well be a flat percentage boost to one of these things; a health and defense increase when in bear form, a control duration and minor damage buff in wolf form, and a damage boost in cat form for full glass cannon effect. This tree would likely reduce the cooldown of wildshape powers.
The second tree would likely be focused control effects. this is where you go if you want to be a purely cast-y druid, as it would, essentially, make you like a wizard in regards to your role in a party; cast powers that hinder the enemy and do some damage. this feat tree would likely be more in regards to sticking with your base form, so reducing cooldowns makes sense, but only for base form powers.
The third tree seems like it would favor either of two things damage, or buffs. Possibly both. perhaps adding some buffing ability to the wildshapes, or to the base druid spells, or even just increasing the damage the same way the Destroyer tree works for the GWF. As long as the cooldown reduction feats for the other two trees aren't too far into the trees, this may actually be viable for either sticking with one form and just going murderface on everything. A note, though; placing the cooldown reduction feats too close to entry means some might pick up both the reductions for a beast form and a human form at once; the easiest way around this is to make them cancel each other out, by extending cooldown duration for the other.
The other idea is to have a paragon tree for each form; one for the controller wolf, one for the striker cat, and one for the tank bear. I don't feel I really need to elaborate on this version though, as it should seem fairly obvious. my preferred choice is the one before this, as it allows druids to be more versatile.
Conclusion:
Still reading? Thanks for sitting through my ramblings. Let me know what you think of these ideas; I really like the resultant class of these plans, but I know some of you are going to have different opinions, so let's hear them.
So, without further ado, let's get started shall we?
Weapon Selection:
In 4e DnD, druids utilize Staves and totems as their implements of choice. I've always imagined a man or woman in furs with a gnarled walking stick as the classic druid appearance, so the staff definitely has my vote over a totem. Besides, a totem feels just too similar to the cleric holy symbol to me.
Armor Design:
This should be pretty obvious, I think. The devs got a lot of experience designing more barbaric armor for the various barbarians out in Icewind Dale, and even the new shaman companion, so furs and the like seem like an obvious choice. Perhaps with animal head helmets and hoods. Now, obviously, not all armor would have the wilderness feel to it; I can't see any druid thayan gear not having that egyptian theme they all have going for them, and egyptian style always has clear cut lines rather than rustic design.
Class Mechanic:
So, I was having trouble making this unique from the ranger for a while. I know tons of us would love wildshape as a tab ability for this class, so that's the idea I wanted to run with, but I had a lot of trouble figuring out how to make it different from the ranger tab ability, which is also a stance switch. The solution I came up with isn't swapping your powers.
Here's the idea; a druid would have four forms to choose from. They'd have their base form, which you'd choose at character creation. a Half-orc, a human, stuff like that. this form works as standard; you slot in the different powers you want to use, cooldowns, yadda yadda. At level 10 though, you unlock three different wildshape forms that you slot into a special tab slot that only accepts these three form powers. These wildshape forms would replace your current selection of encounter and at-will powers with a predefined list, usable only in this form.
The first form would be a wolf. The idea is this is the "controller" form. the powers would revolve around proning, stunning, or otherwise tripping up your opponents; one idea is a dazing howl, to affect an AoE, and a bite attack that prones. The second form is that of a large cat - maybe a panther or something - and this would be the striker form. perhaps a power to close to melee, and all sorts of strong damage focus. The third form would be that of a bear, for the purposes of drawing aggro and resisting damage.
In this way, you could build a druid in any of three ways; As a pseudo-tank that has some control spells, a full controller, or a DPS character with some control abilities.
You could also include a daily power that includes a change to the wildshape power, briefly changing form to an elemental instead; a water elemental for the wolf (cold control, after all), fire for the cat (so much damage), and earth for a bear (tanking at its finest).
Paragon Trees:
We learned with the ranger that players don't particularly like playing classes where they need to swap between stances, instead preferring to stick to one stance for the most part, and we can actually work that directly into the class here. I propose the three different paragon feat trees be as follows.
The first tree would be all about your wildshape form, adding utility to the encounter powers of the various wildshape forms. for example a feat that adds more aggro or regen to the bear form, or a feat that adds control duration to the wolf. the Capstone may well be a flat percentage boost to one of these things; a health and defense increase when in bear form, a control duration and minor damage buff in wolf form, and a damage boost in cat form for full glass cannon effect. This tree would likely reduce the cooldown of wildshape powers.
The second tree would likely be focused control effects. this is where you go if you want to be a purely cast-y druid, as it would, essentially, make you like a wizard in regards to your role in a party; cast powers that hinder the enemy and do some damage. this feat tree would likely be more in regards to sticking with your base form, so reducing cooldowns makes sense, but only for base form powers.
The third tree seems like it would favor either of two things damage, or buffs. Possibly both. perhaps adding some buffing ability to the wildshapes, or to the base druid spells, or even just increasing the damage the same way the Destroyer tree works for the GWF. As long as the cooldown reduction feats for the other two trees aren't too far into the trees, this may actually be viable for either sticking with one form and just going murderface on everything. A note, though; placing the cooldown reduction feats too close to entry means some might pick up both the reductions for a beast form and a human form at once; the easiest way around this is to make them cancel each other out, by extending cooldown duration for the other.
The other idea is to have a paragon tree for each form; one for the controller wolf, one for the striker cat, and one for the tank bear. I don't feel I really need to elaborate on this version though, as it should seem fairly obvious. my preferred choice is the one before this, as it allows druids to be more versatile.
Conclusion:
Still reading? Thanks for sitting through my ramblings. Let me know what you think of these ideas; I really like the resultant class of these plans, but I know some of you are going to have different opinions, so let's hear them.
Post edited by harnel on
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I also think that your ideas for the animal forms works pretty well, but I'd like to see each and every power the druid has get something available in their animal form. Perhaps (to ease development and balance time) you could pick which animal form you want out of the 3, but it would only be cosmetic. This way all druid encounters/dailies/at wills/ and class features would have a different (sometimes drastically) function when you're shapeshifted. This, unfortunately, changes it to be very similar to the hunter ranger though, which you were trying to avoid.
I do agree on the staff idea though, as that seems to be a staple druid weapon, but I would not be against a totem either. Though both clerics and warlocks both have something similar already in that respect.
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The easy way to make druids would be for <tab> to be wildshape and only change the at-wills. A wildshaped druid would still cast their normal daily & encounter spells. I don't know if that works in 4e but it would make wildshape easier to use -- one of the problems with stance dance in HR is that all your encounter powers change, sometimes having opposite effects, so you can easily get into trouble if you are pressing <tab> frequently.
It's easy to imagine the druid as a ranged caster who wildshapes to a melee fighter form. However, you could also have a druid who fights at melee range in both forms, with wildshape simply being a temp. HP / CC break like Unstoppable.
I would love to see a staff user in this game. Another idea for the druid would be a totem that transmutes into a shillelagh or vine lash as the druid uses her at-wills.
Finally, what about the VFX for the druid's spells? HRs use a lot of green leaf FX, CWs cast mostly blue ice spells... I envision druid spells with insect FX. For instance, a cloud of butterflies for a heal, or a swarm of bees for an attack.
In other words, Druids are NOT healers. Many ppl want em to be healers (they were, in the old AD&D and at some point of the 3rd edition), but not in the 4E. Also, theyre NOT a pet master class. But then the Devs can come with some obscure PP *looks at the Master of Flame*, and make the class a healer or w/e they think it will be fun, til its too late. Oh well...
Hope this clarifies some aspects about the 4e Druids, and those discussing the class dont fall into disapointment, expecting something the Druid is not, when it comes out, turning it like the HR in PvE, the redhead stepchild, struggling to find some love.
EDIT: Also, shouldnt this thread be in The Wilds? o.O
Think primal power Control Wizards.
Also, a Druid with a Wolf pelt or headress as they mentioned, that's a big no, no, among the Druid community (Some Druids would punish or even kill you if you were caught sporting this type of dress).
-Kymos
First, there is absolutely no reason for this thread to be in the Wilds. Druids are classically priests, so it's where it belongs IMO. Druids are not Rangers. Nor, to the OP are they barbarians (re: armoring).
There are some things I would take issue with:
The thread absolutely belongs here until such time as there is a specific home for the class (if it ever exists). Druids are priests.
The classes are not bound by 4e; and a good thing too, or every edition that redefined archetypes in dramatic retcons, like what has been done to druids since their inception, would result in character resets and screaming (rightly so) playerbases.
That being the case, there would be nothing preventing a tree that is a buff/heal tree from being implemented.
Druid's not a simple class to being into this game; they can heal, they can control, they can damage, and some would have it that they can tank as well. Gee it almost sounds like it would fill every role a Paladin would fill in a party (from an MMO perspective). No id doesn't wear plate but if you give it a WoW Tank-Bear form and similar capabilities, and let it shift in and out of that form to use other abilities, then you don't need plate...and you won't need Paladins.
I asked about if the thread should be in the Wilds cuz of THIS. As u said, classically Druids are priests, but in the 4e thats not entirely the case. Thats my view of the class in the 4e, the one NW is based and only.
And unless Cryptic step ahead and decide follow the changes of the 5e, NW will introduce classes the way theyre presented in the 4e. So, sadly, theyre bound by 4e.
I don't like the idea that a druid can just wildshape back and forth to fill every role. However, what you COULD do is keep the core of the idea of a control wildshape, a dps wildshape, and a tanky wildshape, but have the druid have to pick only one; so that a druid might choose "any" role, but not "every" role, if that makes sense. So they could choose the ability to have a Wolf wildshape which gives them some control ability, as suggested, but if they choose the wolf they can't choose the DPS cat, or the tank bear.
I generally like the idea of druids being more control based--vines entangling groups of foes to keep them busy; maybe using wind spells to blow mobs away and/or slow them down; swarms of insects covering them--doing DoT while pulling their aggro from you or your party; sunlight (or darkness) to blind them; and so forth. Due to CW overlap, they should probably limit (but not necessarily exclude altogether) ice and lightning powers; maybe fire too. But they could have earthquake effects that cause a damaging spike to shoot up from the ground and knock people prone; maybe mudslides to trap them?
Yeah the Druids hanging about the portal quest that unlocks the new dungeon and skirmish in IWD have staffs , I wish there was a way to get to see them in combat , my CW was so jelly of their staves xD
However, if they're going to make it they can't screw it up. I'd be perfectly fine if the stance switch was something like this: Similar to the HR once you switch stances you have a whole different setup of encounter powers however unlike the HR you can chose which powers you want to have in each stance... But one stance could be the different animals you can switch to and the other stance would be your encounter setup.
Basically the encounters you put in the animorph stance can only be the shape-shifting encounters that you've received and the encounters that you put in the attack stance can only be attack encounters etc... So basically instead of getting a choice to a whole new power setup when shape-shifting you get a whole new BONUS.....
EG: "While taking on the shape of a cheetah you run 200% faster and increase you deflection chance by 5% but your damage is decreased by 30%"
"While taking on the shape of a gorilla incoming damage is deceased by 50% and your damage is increased by 2% but your speed is decreased by 50%:
"While taking on the shape of a bear your damage is increased by 40% and your speed is increased by 20% but your defense is lowered by 30%"
"While taking on the shape of a snake your damage is converted in to poison damage dealing 40% of you attack damage as poison damage but your attacker also does 10% more damage to you"
"While taking on the shape of a deer incoming healing is increased by 20% and defense is increased by 2% but your damage is decreased by 60%"
"While taking on the shape of a wolf your combat advantage chance is increased 100% and your damage bonus from combat advantage is increased by 55%"
"While taking on the shape of an alligator your damage is increased by 20% and your defense is increased by 15% but your speed is decreased by 75%"
I feel this will make the druids rely on timing their abilities so they're not caught in the wrong place at the wrong time... Another thing could be that the ability to be able to switch stances works a little like the devoted clerics where as instead of it proccing off of you dealing damage it procs off of you taking damage (Max 2 stacks instead of 3) and once you use the 2 stacks (A stack goes away after a steady amount of time like the rogues stealth bar) then you have to receive more damage to be able to shape shift.
Note: I'm not following any DnD rules so if there's something I'm disobeying then by all means tell me
I clearly haven't had enough sleep lately. When I read this, my first thought was a druid literally summoning a tree and I had to wonder what good that would do them.
Just so we have another healing class, because i think shaman and bard is going to be after druid/paladin so thats over a year away before theres another healer.... and I don't think this game will last that long at the rate its going ( 8 sets of dailies!)
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
A third build is introduced in Martial Power: the beastmaster ranger. It is a pet class whose powers involve the ranger and the animal companion seamlessly fighting together. Whereas a twin-blade would strike with both swords and an archer loose a volley of arrows, the beastmaster's powers typically involve both ranger and pet attacking at the same time.
Similarly, the warlock isn't a healer class in 4e. It is a striker/controller with an emphasis on single target attack spells. Warlocks also have a lot of mobility and self-healing powers, though most of their powers grant themselves temporary HP as opposed to real HP. They're also one of the few classes that doesn't get to choose their at-will powers. Their first one is always Eldritch Blast, and their second one depends on their patron.
Dark Pact: Spiteful Glamor
Fey Pact: Eyebite
Infernal Pact: Hellish Rebuke
Sorcerer-King Pact: Hand of Blight
Star Pact: Dire Radiance
Vestige Pact: Eyes of the Vestige
Elemental Pact: Chromatic Bolt
None of these paths provide healing to allies, but the Neverwinter Warlock can heal allies through the Temptation tree.
Taking a break from Neverwinter indefinitely...
my suggestion would be to have each Form have its own At-wills, but have Encounters (Aka Spells) be the same across all forms.
to make each form stand out, i'd further suggest each form have some kind of unique buff
My suggested Forms are:
Human(oid): Spell-like at-wills with a buff to spell (encounter) damage and control
Wolf: a pounce-like at-will with a chance to knockdown (perhaps greater with CA), buff to crit% and severity
Bear: slow, heavy hitting at-wills with bouns threat and a bonus to damage Reduction
so we end up with 3 distinct roles a druid can fulfill: Ranged DPS (in man-form) Melee DPS (in Wolf-form) and Tank (in Bear-form)
Dragon Server
Ragnos Fireborn - 18.7k GWF Half-Elf
Eva Darkblood - 13.8k TR Elf
Venger Force of Evil - 13.7k CW Tiefling
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Drak'ar - 13.3k HR Drow
Roghthar Darkspawn - 11.5k SW Human
If they summon then that's gonna be a boring warlock wannabe. I rather shapeshifter. However one thing I've learned by looking at the ranger and warlock NPCs is that they don't make the classes anything like the NPCs
Druids can use most of those midgets from sharandar powers , druids works with the nature, summons roots, trees to fight, summons wild beast to fight for them, swarms of bees with damage over time, druids can have poison kill too ,druids can make an enemy from a group to be on the druid's side for a limited time too,etc.
Druids may also heal a bit the party too or only the companions if are classified as beasts.
Necromancer uses the Undead powers to summon skeletons or zombies, decay or putrefy skill to damage over time, resurrect dead bodies to fight for them for a limited time, etc. A necromancer can gain HP everytime from a dead enemy (passive skill). Can summon a powerful undead Black Knight to fight., can summon skeleton hands from the ground to root/damage the enemy (just like the necromancer from KINGS BOUNTY game), etc , etc.
Demonolgists can summon demons from hell, can summon a demoness or ENRY (whatever is it name in this game) which can heal a bit the summoner for a limited time and in the same time can affect an enemy mind to possess it which makes it to attack its own allies for a limited time, a Demonologist can summon a portal which can spawn imps- might be useful on dungeons .
Demonologist can posses enemies minds to take damage over time as "hurting itself" = but this may be forbidden by the games community regulations = as supporting/suggesting an EMO side to the kids.
And so on...Vampires, Dwarf Engineer, As experienced with many games i can suggest a full list of classes and skills.
Interesting the Alchemist companion in Neverwinter, looks like an inspiration from the alchemists from Kings Bounty game, there they throw with flasks too with acid.
- PWI - November, 2008 (2 months after North-America-West Coast open beta)
- Forsaken World - open beta
- BOI - open beta
- Star Trek Online - ftp January, 2012 and rank 14 STO Wiki contributor
- Neverwinter open beta June, 2013
Daily Foundry "Canyon of the Dead" ( NW-DBPJYKMRE ) - dungeon
From what I understand, the druid-as-summoner class in this game is Shaman. It's a classic 2nd ed. druid playstyle though so it's possible that Cryptic may give us a Shaman instead of a Druid, or a Shaman that is called a Druid.
Summoners tend to be boring in video games. You summon your pet, or your army, and it does what it wants; meanwhile your own attacks are weaker, because you have that extra pet damage. Basically, you just have less control.
If we get a Shaman, I hope there is some more engagement with the pet, like at-wills or encounters that give the pet commands, or cast spells on it. Also, the pet should be untargetable in PvP.
No offense, but coming from a class that summons a thornward (stationary and temporary, but still a summon, no?) as well as depends on a "shoot once, let DoT + procs do all the damage" class enthusiast, I don't find that very convincing.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I don't think large cat works very well with wolf. Usually the Druids like to shapeshift into forms they are familiar and wolves are generally sub-arctic area animals where large cats are generaly temperate area animals, besides Lynx (which really is slightly larger cat), snow leopard in Asia and Puma in north America (although I'm not exactly familiar does it live as far north as there would be snowing). Also I'm pretty sure if Druids totem animal would be canine, it would dislike if the Druid would shift into feline form...
Third form should be a flying animal, one medium/small and one large/medium animal form. Perhaps the paragon path would decide your animal forms or you could pick in the character creation/when reaching certain level. Also we should not forget that D&D Druids are summoners as much as shapeshifters (3.5 rules allowed to convert any spell into summon animals spell of same level as cleric could convert any spell into healing/inflict spells). My most famous Druid was level 30 Druid (Druid 20, Shapeshifter 10) who liked to change into ancient red dragon in combat and call basically every animal in the forrest for his aid, he also liked to ride Orca Whales, polar bears and lions and stalk people by changin so fast small animal forms that City Watch started to think there is serious rodent and bird problem in the city (level 10 Shapeshifter could with a feat take any form up to Colossal and shift unlimited times per day).
Thus there certainly must be call animal ability, abilities or similar companion as the Soulslave of the Warlock. Perhaps you could even by pressing Shift/Ctrl/Alt use one of your encounter spells to summon animal instead of the usual function.
Third thing Druids have in D&D is their affinity for elements, which means there should be encounter spells and perhaps dailies from all of the classic 5 (European) elements (Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Ether). Alternatively there could also be possibility to choose the five classic Cathayan elements (Earth, Water, Fire Wood and Metal), but elements there should be.
From the outlook of Druid, you could also think Druid to look like the green Wizard fellow with bird **** all over from the Hobbit movie or my Druids have generally been (slightly) more civilized moving constantly in the cities with robes and Hide armor or some times with bark armor, as I have generally left the furs for the Barbarians (like the eternity project in the class choice slot of "coming soon" that has been atleast a year already and much before we knew anything from SW) or even more accurately for the Berserkers, who were historically whought to wear bear-skins.
Personally on the armor side I think there is already too much armors and they should start to put many classes to use same armors with slightly different skins. Why couldn't GWF wear a chainmail or Ranger and Druid use same armors with separate skins? The underpanst are the worst of them all, why does every class need to use certain underwear and you can't put on GWF panties if you are CW? Those should all be equipable by all, just that there should be enough different ones to have preferred stats for each class, not two separate wearable only by one class.
My Druids have generally been Sickle, Scythe or Scimitar wielding, as I have thought the staves more of Wizard stuff, as they are pretty unwieldy in small spaces (and do too little damage :P) and are not as showing as Scythe, even if Scythe would in reality be probably among the worst possible weapons you could wield in battle, being second perhaps only to a rock.
Anyways, these are my thoughts about the class.