Yea you guys are right a SW can beat DC. I checked the healing scores at the end of dungeons and skirmishes. However most of the time I do beat the SW in healing, but what I suspect is overall a DC will beat a SW in healing but the SW can deal a lot of healing over a relatively short period of time but not consistently.
i have never lost to a cleric in healing o.o. best they could do was half my healing and that's because they heal me since i am often the tank in groups unless someone else can hold aggro.
i have never lost to a cleric in healing o.o. best they could do was half my healing and that's because they heal me since i am often the tank in groups unless someone else can hold aggro.
Is it true that you heal more over short periods and not consistently?
Only reason why the TSW can out heal a cleric is because it is constantly doing aoe heals. That is 5 people, even if the heals are way less than cleric's, it is running 24/7 as long as there is something do damage. But there are situations that SW aggro'ed a whole group and they have to kite a little. Some of that SW dps stops. A good Cleric can dodge, deal a massive heal and re-adjust positions effectively, takes alot of concentration though. I don't think SW can heal effectively on difficult fights than Clerics. I mean fights where the group's gears core is barely made it into the dungeon. Based on what I see, SW can makes easy fight easier, DC can make a hopeless into a success.
But who knows, it could be just a matter of play style where the group adjust to the way TSW heals. I mean if you take a huge damage and you know that you are with a TSW, you can step back and avoid getting hit and wait for your hp to go up. It's an aoe heal so you know its coming as long as your TSW is safe doing damage. If its a DC healer, its hard to tell if the heal will come soon, depends on the DC's skills.
Problem with DC is, if he is not a very good player, its basically a 4 man team. DC's dps is negligible in my opinion for the success of the group. How can you be a bad player with TSW? All you need to do is keep attacking and you are doing your job. In my opinion, all TSW are expert players. No matter what order of the button you press as long as it hits something hostile, you are HEALING. So there are Pros and Cons.
Only reason why the TSW can out heal a cleric is because it is constantly doing aoe heals. That is 5 people, even if the heals are way less than cleric's, it is running 24/7 as long as there is something do damage. But there are situations that SW aggro'ed a whole group and they have to kite a little. Some of that SW dps stops. A good Cleric can dodge, deal a massive heal and re-adjust positions effectively, takes alot of concentration though. I don't think SW can heal effectively on difficult fights than Clerics. I mean fights where the group's gears core is barely made it into the dungeon. Based on what I see, SW can makes easy fight easier, DC can make a hopeless into a success.
But who knows, it could be just a matter of play style where the group adjust to the way TSW heals. I mean if you take a huge damage and you know that you are with a TSW, you can step back and avoid getting hit and wait for your hp to go up. It's an aoe heal so you know its coming as long as your TSW is safe doing damage. If its a DC healer, its hard to tell if the heal will come soon, depends on the DC's skills.
Problem with DC is, if he is not a very good player, its basically a 4 man team. DC's dps is negligible in my opinion for the success of the group. How can you be a bad player with TSW? All you need to do is keep attacking and you are doing your job. In my opinion, all TSW are expert players. No matter what order of the button you press as long as it hits something hostile, you are HEALING. So there are Pros and Cons.
Strongly disagree with this. The advantage of the cleric is a fleeting one. While they can divine cast things to get their healing going, a warlock can cast on the move to. And there are spells and powers that work while the warlock is moving. So the whole "Warlock's can't heal on the run" theory is rather debunked.
Furthermore, as the warlock's damage goes up, their healing goes up as well.
i like the 7-11k heals on fiery bolt? it's my best burst heal outside of gates of hell. blades will get me killed since it's frozen heart and i am being chased by 5 ice golems, a dozen trolls, and some archers hidden in the mess. i actually consider harrowstorm to be one of the weaker aoes and should be used more for the prone effect.
I've been using Pillar of Power, Fiery Bolt and Dreadtheft as my rotation. Bolt is great for burst heals. Pillar is good to stand in while using Dreadtheft. I usually curse targets, cast my Pillar to the side or in an open area, throw Fiery bolt then move to the Pillar and begin using Dreadtheft. The green numbers start flying. If I get chased or attacked I move out the Pillar and let the Hellish flames explode on the mobs.
Standing in the Pillar of Power increases damage while standing in it. Plus it just looks bad ***.
I agree on Harrowstorm, it seems better suited for PvP and the prone. The area it affects is not that big.
just did a dungeon and my best heal from fiery bolt encounter was 40k. don't ask me how that happened because it shocked me too xD.
It's not unusual. I've been hitting 22k+ fire bolts to all targets hit by it, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. So much theory crafting goes on in this thread with people either upset or unwillng to believe the warlock can be a viable group healer, that does outstanding DPS as well.
I've healed Epic Dread Vault, Epic Castle Never, Epic Throne of Spiders, Epic Valindra's Tower, Epic Malabog's Castle, Epic Spellplague, Epic Caverns of Karrundax, many of these places that I was flat out told I would not be able to match a Devoted Cleric in, and so far, I've had no real trouble. I've had one bad Valindra run and that was, to be blunt, because people kept ignoring the coffins during the second phase and we were constantly being over whelmed by the undead, and that's less to do with healing and more to do with people being silly.
over all, I still think the best possible combination will be a DC and a temp warlock in the team, ignoring OP wizards at the moment, especially after DC's get their much needed buff, because you will have two classes that cover the healing and buffing angles.
My crappy little 9.5k-ish Temp SW outheals every DC I've ever played with according to the leader board. Does that make me or any other SW a better healer? No.
The reasoning behind this is the DC's capability to reduce incoming damage, something the SW cannot do or only to a minor extent. So, if **** is going down the drain I'd rather have a DC to keep my party safe. The odds are that I'll have to avoid getting hit and Dreadtheft is on C/D leaving the party without heals and stuff like AS and the likes to ease the pain. Also, did I mention the DC's buffs/debuffs?
Don't get me wrong, for most occasions a temp's healing capability alone is sufficient but I'd always go with a DC. Invincible mode for the entire party and DG + TT is just... fun to watch and play with
I've healed Epic Dread Vault, Epic Castle Never, Epic Throne of Spiders, Epic Valindra's Tower, Epic Malabog's Castle, Epic Spellplague, Epic Caverns of Karrundax, many of these places that I was flat out told I would not be able to match a Devoted Cleric in, and so far, I've had no real trouble.
How quaint, I remember groups deliberately taking healers to some of those, I think.
Giggle, most of my characters use R7s or worse for PvE. You don't need to be "overgeared", with all these boons and artifacts- just "faintly competent" to steamroller the PvE content.
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myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
edited September 2014
I have six toons. DC, GF, TR, CW, GWF, and SW, created in that order. My first D&D character was a cleric, and I will always prefer that class to any other, regardless of DPS issues or the outright contempt of others in this game. As much fun as I've had with all the others, I still feel a pang of guilt when I move past a toon out of combat low on hit points...and I can't help.
Giggle, most of my characters use R7s or worse for PvE. You don't need to be "overgeared", with all these boons and artifacts- just "faintly competent" to steamroller the PvE content.
R7s you are in such poverty. I consider R7 in that over geared field, sorry
Nope. TSW's heal consistently. The only time a TSW is not healing is when there is nothing to kill.
Ah. That was something I was guessing anyway, I just got the impression that TSW's sometimes get massive boosts in their healing. Which class do you think has the best support though? I'm not sure if being able to heal more neccesarily would make the TSW better. I will tell you this though I was in Dread Vault normal with a TSW who beat my healing and I think at least twice I saved him from sticky situations. So despite him beating my healing (and by a large amount can't quite remember the figure, roundabout twice my healing could have been a bit more or a bit less) it seems he didn't have better defences.
Oh and I'm a bit mad about that. I thought it was for the most part the job of the cleric to protect the party. I thought that's what we were all about. Now were not good at dmg and another class which isn't know for protecting party members is beating us in healing. What?
EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention gear score. Most of the times I had a highier gear score, I got the impression it didn't make that much difference. However I think I did beat a TSW with a highier gear score or similar. In my defence I think I'm a pretty good DC and I've been told I'm a good at what I do.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Clerics can put down circles and other defenses but typically are in a specific area and require parties to stay within such areas. Though their defensive buffing dailies can cover a wide area, frantically moving party members tend to cause many headaches for clerics. As such clerics tend to have better defensive spells, it's just that in many cases bad party members seemingly avoid said circles or bosses tend to make such circles moot causing hair pulling from the cleric.
On the other hand, the scourge warlock just requires being around said party members and several spells can be used on the move. A defensively minded warlock will use a curse boosted vampiric embrace which gives a massive dose of temporary HP to the warlock and party infusing them with additional defense as well. A warlock using dreadtheft + warlock's bargain is pumping out tons of healing to the rest of the party and able to keep moving while doing it. However, due to this superior healing warlocks attract a lot of attention from mobs, especially if there is no GF or a bad GF to taunt mobs away. Warlocks not able to move well and use their spells effectively can be swamped in no time flat by all the aggro they can get.
In the end though it comes down to the players themselves. Personally, the best combo, in my experience, is when you have both a warlock and a cleric working together. They both synergise so well, with the cleric providing added natural debuffing and buffing through feats and the cleric boosts the warlocks offensive capabilities making their healing effects that much stronger. I can't wait to team up with clerics after they get their much needed buff, to be honest.
Clerics are supposed to Heal/CD Res/Strong against undead <- even tanking them in some cases.
A lot of people make really good points about the abilities in the cleric trees and why so many of them are heal related if it is not going to be a serious healer... Honestly it seems the apologists don't even know what is in the trees with all the buff and debuff talk... Yes, that is a possible use, but it is such a waste.
The biggest issue I can see right now outside of nerfed cleric numbers is lifesteal...
Lifesteal should be a special ability only! Probably for the Warlock I suppose until other classes/races are added... Not some internal generalized "everybody" power that regens according to any damage done... <- WTF MATE Silly-> for ALL classes??? Really???
NO, it should be specific warlock abilities or special cursed items...
Why would anyone ever use life stealing/draining enchants... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The warlock should not be healing other people EVER unless it is flirting with necromancy/minions -> it is a freaking warlock. A witch YEA, warlock... nah
A wizard does not steal life or even regenerate unless using some non resident power/item -- Sure they can protect, shield, absorb and even cheat death in certain cases, but not heal...
A rogue might be lucky enough to have some evil dagger or item that allows for draining life they lifted, but again more likely to bathe than heal themselves at all past potions they stole from below.
GWF and GF are the same class just split up to feel like more classes in the game i think... either way they are the big/tough meatwad that out smacks a foe or takes a punch to the mouth and hits harder for it - likely even crushing potions in their hand because to them that seemed the way to heal...
The hunter/ranger will certainly put bandaids on little critters - maybe even rub their booboos a little too long and be experienced in herbal remedies , but lets face it, they are especially keen at staying far away and bringing the wow factor to not taking damage in the first place.
I will say this... I was never out healed until this lifesteal thing started spiraling out of control-IWD... then it was a wizard that out healed me in Kessell's retreat... I rethought my inks and realized the best thing to do is some kind of pseudo dpsing buffing debuffing heal tank...
Again, never out healed since that revelation and 2/3 of the time I was top damage taken too... Today I played on the cleric again, (cleric was my first IWD toon), and a freaking Warlock had 2 times my heals. I was utterly shocked... All health bars rarely ever went below 5%-10% missing sure... and the thing was face roll easy... but the dern thing is broken and hurt my butt so here I am!
TOO STRONK
1. Make clerics heal and the best at it until another healing class comes along - with no depreciation to self heals or pvp heals... I mean please... they should also have cooldown resurrections... and even be able to wield a mace and shield to hold off an enemy line!!! not to mention totally pwning undead-> hello
2. Life steal needs to be special or at least have pretty steep diminishing returns - It will make your game better that way by promoting team dynamics.
3. If you can not remember having a dungeon master describe some visualization of the healing ability of a class before 2007, then don't let that class inherently heal themselves or other people.
4. Just because "D&D version 4e or whatever has it" is not good enough for me to accept it as a good idea.
D&D has had several ideas over the years...
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Even more quaint, an over geared player who thinks they represent the majority.
You can do all the t2s without a healer with gear score ranges between 13-14k, which is easily achievable by anyone.
Doesnt mean Im anti Cleric, or temp SW.. I really dont care what a group is built out of. It can be done with any group. Which is why people who get worked up about pve balance are WAY off the mark. because it simply doesn't matter.
Comments
i have never lost to a cleric in healing o.o. best they could do was half my healing and that's because they heal me since i am often the tank in groups unless someone else can hold aggro.
Is it true that you heal more over short periods and not consistently?
Nope. TSW's heal consistently. The only time a TSW is not healing is when there is nothing to kill.
But who knows, it could be just a matter of play style where the group adjust to the way TSW heals. I mean if you take a huge damage and you know that you are with a TSW, you can step back and avoid getting hit and wait for your hp to go up. It's an aoe heal so you know its coming as long as your TSW is safe doing damage. If its a DC healer, its hard to tell if the heal will come soon, depends on the DC's skills.
Problem with DC is, if he is not a very good player, its basically a 4 man team. DC's dps is negligible in my opinion for the success of the group. How can you be a bad player with TSW? All you need to do is keep attacking and you are doing your job. In my opinion, all TSW are expert players. No matter what order of the button you press as long as it hits something hostile, you are HEALING. So there are Pros and Cons.
Strongly disagree with this. The advantage of the cleric is a fleeting one. While they can divine cast things to get their healing going, a warlock can cast on the move to. And there are spells and powers that work while the warlock is moving. So the whole "Warlock's can't heal on the run" theory is rather debunked.
Furthermore, as the warlock's damage goes up, their healing goes up as well.
I've been using Pillar of Power, Fiery Bolt and Dreadtheft as my rotation. Bolt is great for burst heals. Pillar is good to stand in while using Dreadtheft. I usually curse targets, cast my Pillar to the side or in an open area, throw Fiery bolt then move to the Pillar and begin using Dreadtheft. The green numbers start flying. If I get chased or attacked I move out the Pillar and let the Hellish flames explode on the mobs.
Standing in the Pillar of Power increases damage while standing in it. Plus it just looks bad ***.
I agree on Harrowstorm, it seems better suited for PvP and the prone. The area it affects is not that big.
It's not unusual. I've been hitting 22k+ fire bolts to all targets hit by it, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. So much theory crafting goes on in this thread with people either upset or unwillng to believe the warlock can be a viable group healer, that does outstanding DPS as well.
I've healed Epic Dread Vault, Epic Castle Never, Epic Throne of Spiders, Epic Valindra's Tower, Epic Malabog's Castle, Epic Spellplague, Epic Caverns of Karrundax, many of these places that I was flat out told I would not be able to match a Devoted Cleric in, and so far, I've had no real trouble. I've had one bad Valindra run and that was, to be blunt, because people kept ignoring the coffins during the second phase and we were constantly being over whelmed by the undead, and that's less to do with healing and more to do with people being silly.
over all, I still think the best possible combination will be a DC and a temp warlock in the team, ignoring OP wizards at the moment, especially after DC's get their much needed buff, because you will have two classes that cover the healing and buffing angles.
The reasoning behind this is the DC's capability to reduce incoming damage, something the SW cannot do or only to a minor extent. So, if **** is going down the drain I'd rather have a DC to keep my party safe. The odds are that I'll have to avoid getting hit and Dreadtheft is on C/D leaving the party without heals and stuff like AS and the likes to ease the pain. Also, did I mention the DC's buffs/debuffs?
Don't get me wrong, for most occasions a temp's healing capability alone is sufficient but I'd always go with a DC. Invincible mode for the entire party and DG + TT is just... fun to watch and play with
How quaint, I remember groups deliberately taking healers to some of those, I think.
Even more quaint, an over geared player who thinks they represent the majority.
R7s you are in such poverty. I consider R7 in that over geared field, sorry
Ah. That was something I was guessing anyway, I just got the impression that TSW's sometimes get massive boosts in their healing. Which class do you think has the best support though? I'm not sure if being able to heal more neccesarily would make the TSW better. I will tell you this though I was in Dread Vault normal with a TSW who beat my healing and I think at least twice I saved him from sticky situations. So despite him beating my healing (and by a large amount can't quite remember the figure, roundabout twice my healing could have been a bit more or a bit less) it seems he didn't have better defences.
Oh and I'm a bit mad about that. I thought it was for the most part the job of the cleric to protect the party. I thought that's what we were all about. Now were not good at dmg and another class which isn't know for protecting party members is beating us in healing. What?
EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention gear score. Most of the times I had a highier gear score, I got the impression it didn't make that much difference. However I think I did beat a TSW with a highier gear score or similar. In my defence I think I'm a pretty good DC and I've been told I'm a good at what I do.
On the other hand, the scourge warlock just requires being around said party members and several spells can be used on the move. A defensively minded warlock will use a curse boosted vampiric embrace which gives a massive dose of temporary HP to the warlock and party infusing them with additional defense as well. A warlock using dreadtheft + warlock's bargain is pumping out tons of healing to the rest of the party and able to keep moving while doing it. However, due to this superior healing warlocks attract a lot of attention from mobs, especially if there is no GF or a bad GF to taunt mobs away. Warlocks not able to move well and use their spells effectively can be swamped in no time flat by all the aggro they can get.
In the end though it comes down to the players themselves. Personally, the best combo, in my experience, is when you have both a warlock and a cleric working together. They both synergise so well, with the cleric providing added natural debuffing and buffing through feats and the cleric boosts the warlocks offensive capabilities making their healing effects that much stronger. I can't wait to team up with clerics after they get their much needed buff, to be honest.
You Have Been Lied To!
Clerics are supposed to Heal/CD Res/Strong against undead <- even tanking them in some cases.
A lot of people make really good points about the abilities in the cleric trees and why so many of them are heal related if it is not going to be a serious healer... Honestly it seems the apologists don't even know what is in the trees with all the buff and debuff talk... Yes, that is a possible use, but it is such a waste.
The biggest issue I can see right now outside of nerfed cleric numbers is lifesteal...
Lifesteal should be a special ability only! Probably for the Warlock I suppose until other classes/races are added...
Not some internal generalized "everybody" power that regens according to any damage done... <- WTF MATE
Silly-> for ALL classes??? Really???
NO, it should be specific warlock abilities or special cursed items...
Why would anyone ever use life stealing/draining enchants... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The warlock should not be healing other people EVER unless it is flirting with necromancy/minions -> it is a freaking warlock. A witch YEA, warlock... nah
A wizard does not steal life or even regenerate unless using some non resident power/item -- Sure they can protect, shield, absorb and even cheat death in certain cases, but not heal...
A rogue might be lucky enough to have some evil dagger or item that allows for draining life they lifted, but again more likely to bathe than heal themselves at all past potions they stole from below.
GWF and GF are the same class just split up to feel like more classes in the game i think... either way they are the big/tough meatwad that out smacks a foe or takes a punch to the mouth and hits harder for it - likely even crushing potions in their hand because to them that seemed the way to heal...
The hunter/ranger will certainly put bandaids on little critters - maybe even rub their booboos a little too long and be experienced in herbal remedies , but lets face it, they are especially keen at staying far away and bringing the wow factor to not taking damage in the first place.
I will say this... I was never out healed until this lifesteal thing started spiraling out of control-IWD... then it was a wizard that out healed me in Kessell's retreat... I rethought my inks and realized the best thing to do is some kind of pseudo dpsing buffing debuffing heal tank...
Again, never out healed since that revelation and 2/3 of the time I was top damage taken too... Today I played on the cleric again, (cleric was my first IWD toon), and a freaking Warlock had 2 times my heals. I was utterly shocked... All health bars rarely ever went below 5%-10% missing sure... and the thing was face roll easy... but the dern thing is broken and hurt my butt so here I am!
TOO STRONK
1. Make clerics heal and the best at it until another healing class comes along - with no depreciation to self heals or pvp heals... I mean please... they should also have cooldown resurrections... and even be able to wield a mace and shield to hold off an enemy line!!! not to mention totally pwning undead-> hello
2. Life steal needs to be special or at least have pretty steep diminishing returns - It will make your game better that way by promoting team dynamics.
3. If you can not remember having a dungeon master describe some visualization of the healing ability of a class before 2007, then don't let that class inherently heal themselves or other people.
4. Just because "D&D version 4e or whatever has it" is not good enough for me to accept it as a good idea.
D&D has had several ideas over the years...
You can do all the t2s without a healer with gear score ranges between 13-14k, which is easily achievable by anyone.
Doesnt mean Im anti Cleric, or temp SW.. I really dont care what a group is built out of. It can be done with any group. Which is why people who get worked up about pve balance are WAY off the mark. because it simply doesn't matter.