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GF tank spec...
thaeorin
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 24 Arc User
Currently I am trying out a Tactician spec for PvE. It seems to be working pretty well, but was wondering where my DR etc., should be. I still feel like we take a LOT of damage... not to mention I am having to get used to the whole 80% absorption of the shield instead of immunity. I am coming from the old Conquerer tank spec with the 24% AP, 12% LS, etc. Has that stuff changed? I know my Power took a drop like hell. Any of you theorycrafters out there... let us benefit from your insight. Thank you.
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I use Into The Fray every time it refreshes and I keep hearing guys bragging about their crits, and also how fast their dailies are refreshing. The run speed is an added bonus, but I think the group taking only half damage because of KV is a biggie too. Lately I've been doing runs without a DC and there hasn't been a huge difference in survivability.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
Regarding Knights Valour, unlike most GFs you might meet I'm not one of those who suddenly felt in mod 4 that they must always have it on, personally I find it only benefits the party when people are going to get hit often, so good on certain fights like vs Valindra or with melee groups, not so much with ranged groups. I would deliberately turn it off if some idiots decided just cos I was using it that they could charge into groups of enemies before everyone else.
Into the Frey, seems maybe a little OP, but I use it now over Iron Warrior as it restores more stamina along with it's other useful effects, but sometimes I prefer not to especially with higher GS groups who don't really need the dmg boost :P
P.S. As you may notice my GF is a Swordmaster, and always has been
http://nwcalc.com/gf?b=l9a:1uspwz:1dthkg,1oixi02:100000:15u5u1:1u0u00&h=0&p=smr
In the upper tier, there is no way around Conq because you neither need more survivability nor aggro control. Plus, a Conq can easily get to 40k+ HP on Mod4, which is more than enough for tanking the new content.
With ITF tho I wouldnt for example use it with CWs using the massively OP storm spell, and you do not need to use ITF to be a good tank/GF, I would rather people understood more what it is to be tank than feel they have to use certain skills to be a good tank. Not like we tell other classes like CWs they HAVE to use certain spells or be kicked eh :P
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
GFs were not needed before Mod4 and the only thing that changed that was a massive boost in buffs thanks to ITF and Mark. Let's not pretend tanking is suddenly needed, at least not within groups I play.
That might change with the new content or it might not, but I'm still not willing to drag a Tactitian/Protector through a dungeon when I can get the additional damage of a Conq. What else did significantly chance that helps groups in endgame dungeons?
I agree that the GFs got great buffs all-around and all specs have an easier time doing what they are supposed to do, but true tanking is still a niche.
I'm an up-and-coming GF TANK - honestly, why else play a GF in not to tank in dungeons?
I remember a couple of really-good GFs that lead some T2 dungeon runs, and I remember their names more than any other pug players because of how easy they made the runs. The lower DPS due to Protector spec didn't slow us down. A mod3 Protector tank that kept aggro of ALL mobs, didn't have a problem surviving, and allowed massive AOEs that made the runs faster ... well that's what I want to build with my GF.
So, bearing in mind that players like me want that niche to become a main-stay, how should such a GF spec in mod 4?
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
My protectors build GF has been clearing dungeons faster than any class I've ever played. I'm giving my group a 56.4% damage boost(50.3% base DR, 25% DR added to that from feated KV in protectors) with ITF and I use it as often as possible. KV is toggled on and the group takes 50% less damage. I use Enforced threat to grab packs and mark the monsters, and also a plaguefire enchant.
Having a hard time doing dailies with my alts because I'm constantly getting tells for group invites because players are extra squishy in mod 4 and they get addicted KV's 50% damage reduction 1st and the damage boost 2nd. Not a dungeon run goes by without someone bragging about a new high crit.
I really have to be convinced that a conqueror spec doesn't actually slow down a dungeon run the most. Why? Because your encounters that actually take advantage of the spec is going to replace something vital. ITF is mandatory for a fast run, you HAVE to use it every time it refreshes. KV is mandatory because not only does it cut damage in half, but it adds 20% more DR which is an extra 15% damage boost when you use ITF; without it slotted your group will get a 35-37% damage boost. 15% x 5 members=75% extra damage boost for the group: 93.75% damage boost for the group if you're Protectors(KV feat) and 100% damage boost for Tactician, not including the awesome action point gain the capstone is giving you.
That gives you one non mandatory encounter slot, which I personally use for enforced threat to grab packs of monsters. Conq specced GW is tempting, and also anvil of doom, But I personally need a taunt loaded to mark everything.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I mean for a tactician(maybe protector) for PVE runs supporting class with ITF and tanking.
Tested by me and others. Into the Fray was already nerfed on preview (from 100% DR!),
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?733401-Amazing-sinergy-between-Knight-s-valor-and-Into-the-fray
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Neat info, thx.
Both paragons are awesome imo. Both paragons are going to use the same powers for the most part (ITF, KV, ET, Tide of iron, cleave) so it basically comes down to PVP vs PVE; I want to do both so I went swordmaster. because of steel grace (control duration reduction passive 30%) and steel defense (5 secs immunity to all damage after using a daily) Steel defense works better for me in a tactician spec because dailies are refreshing so fast. I love crescendo for pvp because you pop knights challenge then Crescendo and it literally teleports you to your target, then you get 5 secs damage/control immunity from steel defense to do whatever you want. My guildies were screaming for me to join them in Gaunt because a GF was terrorizing them 1 v 3 with this and the token of free movement artifact (before they nerfed the 10sec refresh)
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Yes, it's a very good encounter that helps a great deal in fights like Spider Temple Final or groups that coordinate to all stack together, but it's not as universal as Knight's Valor.
As for the OP, if you want to be a "full tank" I suggest Iron Vanguard Paragon Path and Protector's Spec.
Knight's Valor (ranked up to 3 and improved with Protector feat) is just too good to pass up, so use it.
Combine it with Guarded Assault. With the new changes it helps spread Iron Guard and Distracting Shield to pretty much every enemy out there. It also deals a decent amount of damage. For a Protector GF, that is...
The rest is pretty straightforward. Enhanced Mark and/or Enforced Threat help you when you need to grab aggro. Shield Talent and or / Iron Warrior when you need to increase your survival.
I successfully ran all content competitively without the ITF buff. I've run with and without it after Mod4. I did flat out preposterous things with the KC buff before they nerfed it. So perhaps you should listen to the voice of experience before you kick anyone who's not going to be your personal buff-bot. Since you don't play a GF seriously I will have to explain something about aggro mechanics to you. Mark multiplies threat but threat is damage or heal generated. So if D=damage and M= mark then GF threat is DxM. Which means if anyone else's D> the GF's DxM the GF has lost control. Keep in mind that if the GF has aggro the aggroed mobs will be hittting him removing marks so the way he maintains control is my marking then using a burst of spike damage to generate threat before losing mark. GF does not have 4 encounter slots like DC and CW, certainly not the six the HR gets. They don't have the extra better-than-a-daily power on tab that the GWF gets. So that buff comes at a cost of nearly 1/3 of the initial threat I am going to ride to maintain control. I might get a cleave or two in there before they lose the mark but mostly bursting encounters on contact is how I will establish control. So the tradeoff is do you want the ITF buff or do you want to gaurantee that the GF will hold down the entire room and let you DPS at will?
I asked the GF to use KV and ITF. He did and not only did we win, but the fight was easy and short.
2 powers, same group.
What's been happening in my GF groups is I grab agro with ET and the mobs are dead before I lose it. Nobody is dying and rarely do they even get low on health. I switched to tactician last night and took a LOT more personal damage than I did with the protector spec. Protector spec I'm Superman and rarely get under 50% health. Tactician I had to use potions. The groups didn't notice a difference because they were still taking only half damage, but I was getting hurt.
The groups unanimously told me to keep the tactician spec though, because the action point gain of martial mastery+ITF was obscene.
I guess I'm still operating with the mod 3 CW/GWF group mentality of more DPS=shorter fights=no need for heals or tanking. So because the fights are shorter I don't need to maintain control as long.
I know ITF is a pain to time and cast and not for everyone. But the damage bonus is very noticeable and any GF that doesn't notice it isn't using it correctly. And apart from the damage bonus, action point gain, and things dying faster, on a basic level the run speed is also welcome.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
So THAT's what does it? Thank you! I couldn't figure out why that was happening.
I tried using Knights Valour in mod 3 on the Syndryth fight and it got me killed quite quickly, not used it in mod 4 yet tho. However imo you really dont need it, cos if you are doing your job as a tank well enough and people arent being stupid running about all over the place but staying close to you then you can simply use enforced threat to keep the adds on you while you attack the boss and anything near her. Knights Valour is only of use where party members are going to be gettin hit a lot or taking unavoidable damage so I would hardly ever use it with a mostly ranged group as they shouldn't be getting hit enough.
Into the Fray as I have said before, is just overkill for most overgeared groups but for a lower geared group who are just struggling with doing enough damage in time, for example vs Valindra in VT then I can certainly see it being a help.
Basically I have 2 main setups depending whether its a melee or ranged group mostly:
RANGED:
Encounters: Bull Rush, Flourish, Enforced Threat
Daily: Crescendo, Villain's Menace (may change this)
At-Will: Crushing Surge, Weaponmaster Strike
Passive: Steel Defense, Enhanced Mark
MELEE:
Encounters: Lunging Strike, Knights Valour, ??? - Could be Into the Fray, Griffon's Wrath etc
Daily: Crescendo, Supremacy of Steel
At-Will: Cleave, Tide of Iron
Passive: Steel Defense, Guarded Assault
Versus certain boss fights like Fulminox/Valindra I tend to switch in skills like Knights Challenge also.
Do players not complain about you using Bull Charge in a dungeon? I learnt very quickly that FLS and Bull Charge are a no-no in a dungeon run. Dispersed mobs take longer to kill.
I ran Tactician in CN and the CWs (2) and GWF (1) could not understand where the AP was coming from, so the build works. I also only needed 2 health pots, activated my Raven Skull once and never used Fighter's Recovery. 5% deflection and 5 AC from the Protector tree has my GF tougher than it has ever been, but then again I was a Conqueror for months.
Versus the Dracolich in CN (which I swear they changed shortly after Mod 4) I would say Into the Fray helps a lot yes, cos you need constant control from dailies along with other encounter skills. As a GF I get knocked around quite a lot on that fight though so its hard to keep my position
Getting swarmed is kind of my goal. Then I pop supremacy and watch the action points pile up for everyone (tactician build) Also when they're packed tight around you like that they're not only *not* attacking any group members but it makes DPS for the group that much easier.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I tend to not mass pull as much as I can see in dungeons, or charge into a room full of enemies, just cos after many years of playin another MMO that rhymes with....POW...I find it not a tactically good way to get through a dungeon. Being swarmed by too many makes it a) difficult to position yourself to block all the attacks b) harder to keep enough threat on all enemies and c) much more red to avoid for myself and the rest of the party. But with smaller more managable pulls Bull Rush can be used to interrupt an enemy from casting or perhaps from attacking another party member, or like I said in a previous post.
this should not be left alone here uncommented if you guys ask me.
what you are saying is, that you dont want your party to do more damage, because you might not be able to build enough threat against it. if put that simple, that's worth a tiny facepalm to me.
but im not here to flame, but to get you back on track.
1.: ITF also buffs your damage (therefore your threat).
2.: you are the one who controls when ITF is activated, plus you always know its cooldown, giving you a huge advntage when it comes to timing and making the most use of the buff.
3.: enforced threat has the exact same cooldown as ITF. ITF->ET->WIN.
i almost never run enhanced mark but i run with high dps players and ITF->ET->cleave usually does the job. just be aware of the dmg focus of your party and keep an eye on control effects on the monsters -> awareness is key. crushing surge is also an option here, if you need single target threat/dps. that new dmg is kinda huge for a GF at-will, but single target.
use enhanced mark if you got troubles with it, that's no shame at all.
but please, use ITF.
@topic
best tank spec?
didnt play prot since mod 4 and only a few weeks in mod 3.
played tactician most of mod 3.
been conq since mod 4.
im a pve player mostly doin dungeons with guild/friends but also with pugs.
so i cant say much abt the prot tree, others state it makes you superman, while i cant rly see it by the feats alone.
in my opinion the most efficient group support in dungeons would be the tactician. because of +5% on ITF and the +ap from the capstone for you and your party.
all 3 trees can soak up damage and tank everything, i run KV in pug groups without clerics, as a conq. if they dont intentionally eat all the reds im fine, i have to raise my shield more often than with a cleric, but that's fine, aslong as my party can dps and doesnt need to bother abt dodging all the time.
i can imagine perma-KV + tact capstone can give you some decent ap gain for a very high steel defense uptime aswell.
the question would be, does the extra damage the conq specc brings make up for the +5% ITF and +AP that the tact specc brings? i still havent figured that out yet. tacticians survivability is higher if you are swordmaster though, of that im certain.
kinda dont see the need of going full prot, if you could just aswell go tactician+steel defense. 10 pts in prot are always a must, even with 21 tact, if you wanna be tanky anyways.
in the end i wanna agree with the typical encounters slotted for dungeons: KV ITF ET. only reason id change those is if the puggroup doesnt have a cleric and the group just wants to eat _everything_ they can, while noone bothers to ever control a thing.(why are there CWs that still dont use steal time?) then i switch out KV for lunge.
I have a GWF as well, and there is nothing more frustrating than a GF or another GWF FLSing my target away from me. The distance is not much, yes, but for other melee players (I'd assume TRs would hate it just as much) those few feet can be the difference between a massive IBS crit and a blown encounter.
Only time I use Bull Charge in a dungeon is in VT and MC boss fight. Massive single target burst and it is a last resort gap-closer for going after caskets.
Also, as a Tactician, my build is most effective when getting hit, so I welcome damage. Perma Supremacy of Steel with 10% Life Steal and Regen is a real treat.