Nothing can be better for a DPS party than a good gs'ed and well-playing DC.
The main problem is that people tend to forget that the party succeeded much to the same (and quite often more due to quicker and smoother runs) extend to the DC than to any other party member who is top in dps. If the party succeeds hooray to CWs/GWFs; the DC who provided damage mitigation, healing survivability and entire party damage boost left forgotten. If the party wipes, guess who is the main scapegoat?...
But again, if people are experienced and understand they would definitely choose a DC over 1 more dps char.
Chris Meyer @CrypticGMC
Cleric overhaul is huge and is really coming together. All Encounter powers are getting looked at, reworked divine mode, all new feat trees.
Nothing can be better for a DPS party than a good gs'ed and well-playing DC.
The main problem is that people tend to forget that the party succeeded much to the same (and quite often more due to quicker and smoother runs) extend to the DC than to any other party member who is top in dps. If the party succeeds hooray to CWs/GWFs; the DC who provided damage mitigation, healing survivability and entire party damage boost left forgotten. If the party wipes, guess who is the main scapegoat?...
But again, if people are experienced and understand they would definitely choose a DC over 1 more dps char.
This is why I don't debuff, a lot of selfish players in this game only care about their dps, so if all you care about is your dps why should I give them even more reason to be selfish by debuffing? at the end of the day they are going to be the ones looking good at the end of the dungeon with paingaver.
when I play dungeons and I see CWs ask me, "where are debuffs?" this is what I ask them, Have you died since we started this run? they said no, I said ok then, im doing my job.
my job is not to make them dps end of story.
As a virtuous attacking-type DC there was one run where I was able to keep Hallowed Ground up for 90% of an entire Kessell run (counted total number of seconds people spent fighting without HG to be 40 seconds-ish). Obviously no one noticed, and right before the last boss one of the CWs complains about me not using Divine Glow. On trash mobs. Even though my setup at the time got us to the final boss in around 10 mins.
He mysteriously got kicked right before Kessell died.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited August 2014
Half the time, the zipping around DPS players don't stand in AShield or stand still for getting glowed anyway.
When I still actively played my DC, I had her usually run Sunburst (only Divine when they did not give a **** about their DC being eaten), Forgemasters and AShield, maintained ASeal, that's it. HG has a large enough Diameter, but usually, the DPS team had the whole floor covered in red, so AShield would have been pointless anyway.
We did a guild ToS run two nights ago. Two DCs, two SW's, one CW. My blue/green geared SW beat the CW in Paingiver. He was questioning how a "new" SW could beat his 14K CW. I told him it was because one DC was healing, one was debuffing and us two SW's were wrecking face
I regularly run VT on my DC using HP and we take another for heals. DCs are still viable . . . by the players that really know how to play. Hack/slash parties just want loot and don't care about the entire experience. I typically stay away from them. If I am in healing mode, don't ask me to heal you unless the party really needs it. If I'm in debuff, pop some pots. I have to so why shouldn't you?
This isn't Burger King. You don't always get it YOUR way. You'll get it the RIGHT way
Many of the latest MMO releases do away with the need for a primary healer class.
I like the "Devoted Cleric" name, but to me, it does not mean devoted healer.
The "Holy Trinity" is a thing of the past - the new hotness is "The Role."
Every class is built to serve, by build, several roles in the game.
If my DC keeps non-guild dummies alive, most will thank me. The hack-n-slashers never realize your contribution.
Just run with friends and guildies. Forget the bozos.
And have a good time.
I agree with most of the arguments here: all I can say is that in NW the "perfect cleric" doesn't exist. The importance and the need of a cleric depend on the team.
I've a DC as the main PG: I've invested a lot on it (mainly time and few euros) and I still find myself comfortable with my full heal build. Sometime is very usefull, sometime not: it depends on the dungeon, team, experience and knowledge of the players.
The important lesson I've learnt is that the cleric must be very flexible and adapt itself to the team but I would never accept anyone who ask me to be a babysitter for destroyers.
I've chosen to focus mainly on PvE: I've got the HP gear set, my AS heals up to 735 hp when I crit (many DCs believe that 500 is enough...I don't :cool:), I can cast again HG after few seconds since the the end of the previous one: SB/DG/AS rotation works most of the times together with a high level of action points regeneration. With HG and some heal/debuff many parties are happy and yes...it's true, many players don't even know that they play most of the time over my HG. Sometime I switch to BoH/DG/AS or BoH/CW/AS....depending on the circumstances.
Heroic and solo quest are still a big problem for me, but this is because I have chosen so.
When solo, I take my purified black ice gear set (incredibly high defence), switch powers and start my journey: it takes a lot of time to finish the quest, but it works...but that's not a problem: I'm often with my guild and we finish the IWD/ToD quests in seconds.
Clerics are still wanted in strong team: that's not true for TR/HR/GF.
Now some things that are important for me, looking at the overall structure of the game:
-The cleric gear sets are mainly heal based with the exception of the HP and few others: that's the main problem for me. Good teams don't need heal, they can chose to have a cleric just to speed up the dungeons. This is why the clerics are "forced" to switch to HP when they want to join good teams.
- (Most of the) DCs cannot do heroic alone. I just can do the easiest one.
- 5 CWs can finish CN, 5 DCs don't. I've tried CN with 5 clerics: no problem at all untill we discover that we cannot defeat the 2° boss..or at least no specific tattic was found
- Yesterday I did MC with 3 (healing) SWs and 1 HR. Final statistics: I found myself 4th for healing (because there is nothing to heal) and 5th as usual for damages. Even with good CWs, this never happend to me before: I was always first for healing. The first SW made 9mils damages and 540K healing. The SWs were polite enough to thank me for debuffing..:rolleyes: SWs can heal themselves and partially the team but the new story is that 5 SWs can destroy everything with no heal at all: maybe they will need 5 mins more than CWs.
- A lot of artifacts/pets provide heals. I cannot find an artifact/pet which gives me more dps. It could be implemented like "after healing, you get 10% more damage for 6 seconds" or something like this.
- Few words about PVP. I don't care if the cleric is meat for butchers, but I don't like the idea that I don't have a mean to collect points for PvP bons. Double/triple kills are impossible for clerics, kills are very difficult --- unless you start cheating....and it's possible.
Well...that's all. Forgive my poor english, I'm not a native speaker.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
There are a few older issues here that you brought up that really isnt a issue anymore.
Hrs and GF'S were reworked and really shouldn't be excluded from a group (not that I agree from excluding any class anyways, sort of ridiculous.)
Tr is in the next up with the DC.
To me, its not that the DC is useless, its the game has been changing for the past year and the DC needs a reboot of sorts to work better and more synergistic with the new classes (too many spread out groups due to range classes and DCs main attributes are ground , small area of effect heals/buffs, that should be made to be party wide instead)
Feat trees that lack overall cohesive design to them and too many small points in increased healing, when it should be just a matter of 2-3 heroic and a paragon path to achieve that. Too many feats that do very little in context to the game, or has been changed for unwarranted reason (cleanse), Moontouched.
Overall, DCs are "ok" but need a rework to keep up with the changing paradigm of the game, including some animation reworks that are slow.
Up to Mod 3 , I didnt ever feel at all burdened by running my DC class , just did dailies a different way, now as the game continues to move on, It just needs a refresher. its by far the slowest of any class to do dailies in , even sometimes 2-3-4 thousand gear score lower classes can breeze through things the DC is just so much slower at. I could "almost" do my CW.GWF.Hr dailies in the same amount of time. It takes my SW about the same length of time, with about 6k difference in gear score..
To me, its not that the DC is useless, its the game has been changing for the past year and the DC needs a reboot of sorts to work better and more synergistic with the new classes (too many spread out groups due to range classes and DCs main attributes are ground , small area of effect heals/buffs, that should be made to be party wide instead)
Agreed. Targeted-healing is really crappy in a combat system that doesn't let you focus the tank or tab-switch targets.
In a boss fight where one party member needs focused healing the most, we instead have a situation where it is insanely difficult to target said player amongst the cluster**** going on in the typical boss fight.
There are a few older issues here that you brought up that really isnt a issue anymore.
Hrs and GF'S were reworked and really shouldn't be excluded from a group (not that I agree from excluding any class anyways, sort of ridiculous.)
Tr is in the next up with the DC.
To me, its not that the DC is useless..
I still believe that the issues I've reported are not solved, but it's a matter of personal opinion and nothing else.:D
HR/GF shouldn't be excluded - I agree - but it's a fact that they are not on the top of the list when 2 (or more) CWs and 2GWFs are looking for the last member. Usually the last one is the cleric and this is why I never said the the cleric is useless. As a counter-example, yesterday night I did VT with TR/GF/SW/CW: for the first time I finished it without the "clock tattic" thank to the GF/SW and it was so fast...never see something like this before (I love when different options are discovered to finish dungeon without relying on the same tattic).
I'm simply saying that the cleric is becoming more and more a role without a bright identity: you may want a cleric in the group and that's fine, but if you don't want it, it's fine as well.
The cleric lives in a grey area in my opinion, but I really love the class.
Agreed. Targeted-healing is really crappy in a combat system that doesn't let you focus the tank or tab-switch targets.
In a boss fight where one party member needs focused healing the most, we instead have a situation where it is insanely difficult to target said player amongst the cluster**** going on in the typical boss fight.
The perception of the quality of the combat/healing system is very personal and it will never come to a end. Generally speaking, I'm ok with the current system.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Comments
The main problem is that people tend to forget that the party succeeded much to the same (and quite often more due to quicker and smoother runs) extend to the DC than to any other party member who is top in dps. If the party succeeds hooray to CWs/GWFs; the DC who provided damage mitigation, healing survivability and entire party damage boost left forgotten. If the party wipes, guess who is the main scapegoat?...
But again, if people are experienced and understand they would definitely choose a DC over 1 more dps char.
Via Twitter: https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC
This is why I don't debuff, a lot of selfish players in this game only care about their dps, so if all you care about is your dps why should I give them even more reason to be selfish by debuffing? at the end of the day they are going to be the ones looking good at the end of the dungeon with paingaver.
when I play dungeons and I see CWs ask me, "where are debuffs?" this is what I ask them, Have you died since we started this run? they said no, I said ok then, im doing my job.
my job is not to make them dps end of story.
He mysteriously got kicked right before Kessell died.
When I still actively played my DC, I had her usually run Sunburst (only Divine when they did not give a **** about their DC being eaten), Forgemasters and AShield, maintained ASeal, that's it. HG has a large enough Diameter, but usually, the DPS team had the whole floor covered in red, so AShield would have been pointless anyway.
I regularly run VT on my DC using HP and we take another for heals. DCs are still viable . . . by the players that really know how to play. Hack/slash parties just want loot and don't care about the entire experience. I typically stay away from them. If I am in healing mode, don't ask me to heal you unless the party really needs it. If I'm in debuff, pop some pots. I have to so why shouldn't you?
This isn't Burger King. You don't always get it YOUR way. You'll get it the RIGHT way
I like the "Devoted Cleric" name, but to me, it does not mean devoted healer.
The "Holy Trinity" is a thing of the past - the new hotness is "The Role."
Every class is built to serve, by build, several roles in the game.
If my DC keeps non-guild dummies alive, most will thank me. The hack-n-slashers never realize your contribution.
Just run with friends and guildies. Forget the bozos.
And have a good time.
I've a DC as the main PG: I've invested a lot on it (mainly time and few euros) and I still find myself comfortable with my full heal build. Sometime is very usefull, sometime not: it depends on the dungeon, team, experience and knowledge of the players.
The important lesson I've learnt is that the cleric must be very flexible and adapt itself to the team but I would never accept anyone who ask me to be a babysitter for destroyers.
I've chosen to focus mainly on PvE: I've got the HP gear set, my AS heals up to 735 hp when I crit (many DCs believe that 500 is enough...I don't :cool:), I can cast again HG after few seconds since the the end of the previous one: SB/DG/AS rotation works most of the times together with a high level of action points regeneration. With HG and some heal/debuff many parties are happy and yes...it's true, many players don't even know that they play most of the time over my HG. Sometime I switch to BoH/DG/AS or BoH/CW/AS....depending on the circumstances.
Heroic and solo quest are still a big problem for me, but this is because I have chosen so.
When solo, I take my purified black ice gear set (incredibly high defence), switch powers and start my journey: it takes a lot of time to finish the quest, but it works...but that's not a problem: I'm often with my guild and we finish the IWD/ToD quests in seconds.
Clerics are still wanted in strong team: that's not true for TR/HR/GF.
Now some things that are important for me, looking at the overall structure of the game:
-The cleric gear sets are mainly heal based with the exception of the HP and few others: that's the main problem for me. Good teams don't need heal, they can chose to have a cleric just to speed up the dungeons. This is why the clerics are "forced" to switch to HP when they want to join good teams.
- (Most of the) DCs cannot do heroic alone. I just can do the easiest one.
- 5 CWs can finish CN, 5 DCs don't. I've tried CN with 5 clerics: no problem at all untill we discover that we cannot defeat the 2° boss..or at least no specific tattic was found
- Yesterday I did MC with 3 (healing) SWs and 1 HR. Final statistics: I found myself 4th for healing (because there is nothing to heal) and 5th as usual for damages. Even with good CWs, this never happend to me before: I was always first for healing. The first SW made 9mils damages and 540K healing. The SWs were polite enough to thank me for debuffing..:rolleyes: SWs can heal themselves and partially the team but the new story is that 5 SWs can destroy everything with no heal at all: maybe they will need 5 mins more than CWs.
- A lot of artifacts/pets provide heals. I cannot find an artifact/pet which gives me more dps. It could be implemented like "after healing, you get 10% more damage for 6 seconds" or something like this.
- Few words about PVP. I don't care if the cleric is meat for butchers, but I don't like the idea that I don't have a mean to collect points for PvP bons. Double/triple kills are impossible for clerics, kills are very difficult --- unless you start cheating....and it's possible.
Well...that's all. Forgive my poor english, I'm not a native speaker.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
There are a few older issues here that you brought up that really isnt a issue anymore.
Hrs and GF'S were reworked and really shouldn't be excluded from a group (not that I agree from excluding any class anyways, sort of ridiculous.)
Tr is in the next up with the DC.
To me, its not that the DC is useless, its the game has been changing for the past year and the DC needs a reboot of sorts to work better and more synergistic with the new classes (too many spread out groups due to range classes and DCs main attributes are ground , small area of effect heals/buffs, that should be made to be party wide instead)
Feat trees that lack overall cohesive design to them and too many small points in increased healing, when it should be just a matter of 2-3 heroic and a paragon path to achieve that. Too many feats that do very little in context to the game, or has been changed for unwarranted reason (cleanse), Moontouched.
Overall, DCs are "ok" but need a rework to keep up with the changing paradigm of the game, including some animation reworks that are slow.
Up to Mod 3 , I didnt ever feel at all burdened by running my DC class , just did dailies a different way, now as the game continues to move on, It just needs a refresher. its by far the slowest of any class to do dailies in , even sometimes 2-3-4 thousand gear score lower classes can breeze through things the DC is just so much slower at. I could "almost" do my CW.GWF.Hr dailies in the same amount of time. It takes my SW about the same length of time, with about 6k difference in gear score..
Agreed. Targeted-healing is really crappy in a combat system that doesn't let you focus the tank or tab-switch targets.
In a boss fight where one party member needs focused healing the most, we instead have a situation where it is insanely difficult to target said player amongst the cluster**** going on in the typical boss fight.
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I still believe that the issues I've reported are not solved, but it's a matter of personal opinion and nothing else.:D
HR/GF shouldn't be excluded - I agree - but it's a fact that they are not on the top of the list when 2 (or more) CWs and 2GWFs are looking for the last member. Usually the last one is the cleric and this is why I never said the the cleric is useless. As a counter-example, yesterday night I did VT with TR/GF/SW/CW: for the first time I finished it without the "clock tattic" thank to the GF/SW and it was so fast...never see something like this before (I love when different options are discovered to finish dungeon without relying on the same tattic).
I'm simply saying that the cleric is becoming more and more a role without a bright identity: you may want a cleric in the group and that's fine, but if you don't want it, it's fine as well.
The cleric lives in a grey area in my opinion, but I really love the class.
The perception of the quality of the combat/healing system is very personal and it will never come to a end. Generally speaking, I'm ok with the current system.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF