Um, well I am kind of of forced to PvP if I want to max out my AD earning potential and make glory for artefacts. I'm not terribly pissed off by it. In fact I'd say my poor team mates are probably more annoyed than I am.
Considering my knowledge of PvP is really very limited, I should probably have stayed out of this debate, I'm just very surprised by it. There are so many things in this game that are genuinely out of reach for a lot of people like me who are new to the game, but potions aren't one of them.
We are not talking about the cheap pots who go away if you die they are not causing too many problems. The pots and flasks who cost 3-6k each and give strong buffs are the problem. So you basically have to pay 30k + AD to play an hour with those buffs.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
The counter argument is just that Pots are in the game and can be used anywhere, including PvP, and most of them, are relatively cheap and available to everyone, and there not PvE potions there just potions xD
The issue is they cost more the more you die. If it was potting once for the entire match that would be one thing, but dealing with a decently higher geared enemy who is also stacking some 10-15 potions is more than likely still going to result in you dying more often than him.
And then as yucca pointed out, elixirs are extremely expensive and significantly more powerful. Frankly I don't see temporary pots used without a person already using the persistent buffs.
That's the difference between enchantments and potions. Potions are consumable and vanish upon death which is worse for the lesser geared side (as they are more likely tro use more of these) or are a pay to win type of advantage for the few which persist through death.
Now if these potions were PvP Buff potions, stayed after death, were balanced specifically for PvP and did not cost AD...well I wouldn't be making this thread, I'd bite the bullet and buy the <curses> potions with glory so I can compete with players well above my gear score that need potions so they can take a challenging lower geared opponent and put themselves out of reach.
*looks at forums* Oh look at all these threads crying about how overpowered certain classes are...
I rarely find somebody truly impossible to kill. Hard, yes...but I almost always make them work for their wins.
The only time I have been completely outmatched, even with only 13K GS and LPF in a PvE build, is when they have 10-15 potion buffs. I wonder how many of these 'HR's are unkillable' threads are biproducts of potion buffs?
So yeah...remove buffs from PvP or add in PvP Buff potions that cost glory. One or the other...
But these PvE potions have to go. They're a paid advantage and are directly more beneficial to the team which already has a gear advantage.
Complaining about people using potions is like complaining people using better gears & enchants....
If you can't afford potions, that's your problem, don't say it's unfair
If you can't afford perfect enchantments, that's your problem, don't say it's unfair
Complaining about people using potions is like complaining people using better gears & enchants....
If you can't afford potions, that's your problem, don't say it's unfair
If you can't afford perfect enchantments, that's your problem, don't say it's unfair
Practically all F2P games are P2W, deal with it
I can't believe a potter posted this. Oh wait I can
But I believe true PvP is an unbuffed event. It's supposed to be you(r team) against the other('s team). Skill vs skill. Teamwork vs teamwork. Potions can compensate for a lot of lack of skill and can make you perform way above your normal level. To me, using buffs in PvP is the same as using doping in sports.
There's no doping allowed in sports. Therefor buffs in PvP shouldn't be allowed either.
PvP in every game is an arms race. Every game people will use whatever they can get their hands on to buff themselves. I don't know of any games that have "fair naked PvP".
You cannot equate ONE aspect of a video game to the entire realm of sports...please.
Potions are available to everyone. They are not that expensive or hard to attain. The most powerful ones you don't even have to play the game to earn, just log in and pray (heck you get all the potion types from praying).
Once you enter PvP, all pots should be disabled and only PvP healing potions should be available for use.
Also swapping gear/artifacts should be disabled when entered PvP.
This will only make an even playing field, and especially players that are not geared to their teeth will have a better chance for a fight and they wont get discouraged instantly.
But this is a very hot topic since its a huge AD sink. As i have grown to known cryptic over the last year, unfortunately i dont think they will remove this. But if they did, they would gain new respect, in my eyes at least.
Please remember that P2W arguments are not allowed per Rules of Conduct. That another mod may have mentioned the term because there was no other way to make their point does not preclude this rule nor make discussion of said topic okay.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2014
I have many characters. Buying Elixirs with Ardent Coins, especially just to be competitive in PvP, is not something that should be a requirement.
Am rly not sure how and why u came to this. U can use them if u want and dont have to if u dont. Only thing i would change is using ANY (healing especially) potion should take time (same as it takes a mob to "drink his healing potion"). As well as changing armor.
And am one of the few who never cared about the pvp healing pots for long time and, even that i am using them now, still not rly dependant on them. Never ever had a single thought about using elixirs. It is not a requirement. Also i 99% of the time solo kiu the matches, winning, losing, jumping in the leaderboard by hundred/s pages yet never came on my mind that it was because of some potions.
I admit, sometimes i use heroism potion, but thats because there is no opportunity/reason (except when i solo kiu some harder dungeon where i have to do most of the work) to use them.
A bit nosy NW-DKG7E99X6
"Hardcore" exploration journey and dungeon crawl. Read its description prior to trying it.
Not just potions, everything. I find it pathetic that people cant use companions yet they can use a doohicky and an adorable pocket pet lol. All them powerful potions and food, they are just unkillable with all them bonuses. Icewind pvp should be the place for buffs and unfair advantages but not the pvp with a leaderboard. No buffs should be allowed, it should be as fair as it can be in domination.
I like the sort of PVP system where a new PVP'r should expect to be at a disadvantage.
A new PVP'r shouldn't be on equal footing with a veteran simply by equipping T2 gear from PVE. Should they?
If you just want to toy with PVP to pass the time between dungeons runs or whatever you're waiting on, then you should expect that you will lose most matchs (but at least you can earn some glory or GG stuff).
If you want to turn your character into a PVP beast, then you should expect it will take some time (just like acquiring a full T2 set takes some time).
Now, if losing PVP matches was really debilitating to progessing at all in PVP, then I would see a need for re-balancing (like taking potions away).
I don't know, I've played many MMOs where the new PVPer had to earn his/her way to equal footing.
Also a good point @jrf...
But on top of everything said, i hate the separation of PvP and PvE (tenacity!). Its just another sign of how bad the game mechanic is set and instead of refining it, QA (is there any?) seems tending to assure it will be worse with every patch.
edit: nvm, its about pots, went OT
A bit nosy NW-DKG7E99X6
"Hardcore" exploration journey and dungeon crawl. Read its description prior to trying it.
I like the sort of PVP system where a new PVP'r should expect to be at a disadvantage.
A new PVP'r shouldn't be on equal footing with a veteran simply by equipping T2 gear from PVE. Should they?
If you just want to toy with PVP to pass the time between dungeons runs or whatever you're waiting on, then you should expect that you will lose most matchs (but at least you can earn some glory or GG stuff).
If you want to turn your character into a PVP beast, then you should expect it will take some time (just like acquiring a full T2 set takes some time).
Now, if losing PVP matches was really debilitating to progessing at all in PVP, then I would see a need for re-balancing (like taking potions away).
I don't know, I've played many MMOs where the new PVPer had to earn his/her way to equal footing.
A new PvPer should be equal to an old PvPer if he has earned the gear ( which takes some time ) and the enchants (rank 10s etc)
But he should not be able to reach the amount of AD a old player can throw away for elixirs.
Altho on a side note, the GRIM and PROFOUND set are too close to eachother in stats. There should be a bigger difference. And that is how you should separate old vs new players, and not with elixirs. IMO
Not just potions, everything. I find it pathetic that people cant use companions yet they can use a doohicky and an adorable pocket pet lol. All them powerful potions and food, they are just unkillable with all them bonuses. Icewind pvp should be the place for buffs and unfair advantages but not the pvp with a leaderboard. No buffs should be allowed, it should be as fair as it can be in domination.
This!!!!!!!!!!!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I have many characters. Buying Elixirs with Ardent Coins, especially just to be competitive in PvP, is not something that should be a requirement.
But it IS OK that a Perfect Voral/barkshield is required to be competitive. How is that different? Please explain, I can not see the difference. An Enchantment gives you an edge over someone without one or a lesser one than yours. Same goes for the pots.
If we want to make a skill battle, which many say PvP is or should be, should it not happen on even footing?
But it IS OK that a Perfect Voral/barkshield is required to be competitive. How is that different? Please explain, I can not see the difference. An Enchantment gives you an edge over someone without one or a lesser one than yours. Same goes for the pots.
If we want to make a skill battle, which many say PvP is or should be, should it not happen on even footing?
Let me rephrase that:
Why is it OK that you with your perfVorp for 12kk beat me up with my lesser vorp,
but the game should be changed because someone can beat you up with a perfVorp + pots for 20k/hour?
anyone can use their ardent coins to get the potions that most use,so to say to disable potions is just imho somone who is too lazy to utilize everything possible to make their pvp toon viable in pvp.
most people only jump into pvp for the dailies, and want free ad all the while hindering the team they pug'd on.
if you dont want to use potions then that is your choice, why use enchants then, or gear, or artifacts?
you should be at a disadvantage if you aren't using everything you can for your character. i suppose your next post will be to disable rank 10's as well?
potions are the one thing that is so easily obtained and used i dont understand why you wouldnt use them? i have 8 characters that all do leadership and pray, just from them i supply my main with the potions and never have to buy them with ad, what is so hard about doing this?
1) Not everyone in PvP is using pots. There are a few that come potted up all the time and the joy of killing them is that much sweeter.
2) The whole concept of "naked" PvP being noble is flawed on so many levels. First of all, it presumes that "true" PvP is merely the actual fight between two individuals. That the only skill that should be involved is that of who mashes which buttons faster and in a better order. You're asking for a game of ping and lag, not skill. It presumes that there is nothing else to PvP. In reality, PvP should (and does) begin before you even enter the arena. Choosing your build. Studying the feat trees to select your optimal skills for your preferred style of play. Carefully selecting what boons are actually going to help you, rather than harm you or provide no value at all. Selecting your gear based on how you want to play and tweaking it to get the maximum performance possible. Then taking all of that into the arena and honing your skills to the point where build and button mashing gel together. Getting stomped on and learning what happened to improve your game going forward. This is all PvP.
3) It all presumes that somehow taking away someone's ability to use pots means that you'll make the vulnerable. It's been my experience that going up against someone with 10 different pots running means that they're a pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> player to begin with that is using an edge to cover their bases because they don't know what they are going to walk into.
4) The PED argument is laughable. If someone found away to use a potion that is specifically not supposed to be used in PvP, then it would be an appropriate comparison. All of these are legal and valid to be used anywhere in Neverwinter, PvP included.
what they need to do is remove the ad dailies for domination... so tired of getting 1k gs people and bots on a team standing at the campfire because they want the free ad.
what they need to do is remove the ad dailies for domination... so tired of getting 1k gs people and bots on a team standing at the campfire because they want the free ad.
As I've mentioned before, I can get behind this concept, but the danger is that you lose the possibly of bringing in new blood. For every x number of players that are simply walking in to get their 4 matches for the day, there's going to be one player who comes in because it was on his/her daily list and finds out he/she loves it. You need to have a way of making that first look attractive to people.
No not everyone uses pots, because the good ones cost too much, but the people that have maxed out chars should not have more advantages against weaker players like having millions of AD and buying very powerful potions, having a doohickey and adorable pocket pet. All them stats add up and make a big difference. Domination should be just your basic char and items equipped.
No not everyone uses pots, because the good ones cost too much, but the people that have maxed out chars should not have more advantages against weaker players like having millions of AD and buying very powerful potions, having a doohickey and adorable pocket pet. All them stats add up and make a big difference. Domination should be just your basic char and items equipped.
Companions don't contribute in domination. And I have yet to see a Doohickey there either, so I'm assuming it's the same for them. They both do in IWD, though, but that's as it's meant to be since it's supposed to be open world PvP.
Setting aside the whole AD exploit talk that I'm sure is going to ensue from this, if someone has invested the time and energy to build a fortune of AD in this game to create their maxed out character, then they are absolutely entitled to whatever advantage it affords them.
(Disclaimer: I don't PvP a lot so these are just my thoughts.)
I'm going to side with Ambi on this, though honestly I don't have strong feelings either way. The main problem I see is that pots don't contribute anything to the match. It takes no skill, no talent to click on 15 (or whatever) different potions. If you say everybody has equal access to them, what do you want the final result to be? Everybody running around fully potted? Is that any better than people running around with no pots?
I'll accept losing to people with better gear and enchants who don't know how to play their characters because gear is a natural part of MMOs. Arguably a truly "fair" PvP would normalize stats, but that would cause an uproar -- I mean, part of MMORPG progression is the acquisition of better gear.
On the other hand, pots are just ... pots. They're not a part of MMOs.
Frankly I don't even want PvP potions but at the very least I am tired of losing matches because everybody on the enemy team not only builds for PvP and has PvP gear but also has a buff bar that goes halfway across my screen.
It's bad enough dealing with somebody with a PvP specific build and better gear without also having to deal with them buffed to all hell by fifteen different potions. The solution can't even be 'pot up too' unless you truly expect every person to waste AD on potions that have an effect which expire when a player is killed.
The cold hard truth is the only people who use potions are those who have the gear to know they won't die. I'm good enough of a PvPer to be competitive against players with far superior PvP builds and gear but I can not be competitive against their potions.
I feel ya, however they are no different than having rank 10s plus lockbox artifacts etc. Or 5 purple companions in open pvp.
Either you allow power creep in pvp or you don't. I don't think you should cherry pick out one aspect of the power and say that is wrong.
Now if you are arguing for a pvp mod where everyone has same gear then I am with you. Just add the option and keep the old ones as well. It would had a lot of fun and EVERYONE could participate as equals. Of course once you get beat, you are out of excuses
Comments
We are not talking about the cheap pots who go away if you die they are not causing too many problems. The pots and flasks who cost 3-6k each and give strong buffs are the problem. So you basically have to pay 30k + AD to play an hour with those buffs.
The issue is they cost more the more you die. If it was potting once for the entire match that would be one thing, but dealing with a decently higher geared enemy who is also stacking some 10-15 potions is more than likely still going to result in you dying more often than him.
And then as yucca pointed out, elixirs are extremely expensive and significantly more powerful. Frankly I don't see temporary pots used without a person already using the persistent buffs.
That's the difference between enchantments and potions. Potions are consumable and vanish upon death which is worse for the lesser geared side (as they are more likely tro use more of these) or are a pay to win type of advantage for the few which persist through death.
Now if these potions were PvP Buff potions, stayed after death, were balanced specifically for PvP and did not cost AD...well I wouldn't be making this thread, I'd bite the bullet and buy the <curses> potions with glory so I can compete with players well above my gear score that need potions so they can take a challenging lower geared opponent and put themselves out of reach.
*looks at forums* Oh look at all these threads crying about how overpowered certain classes are...
I rarely find somebody truly impossible to kill. Hard, yes...but I almost always make them work for their wins.
The only time I have been completely outmatched, even with only 13K GS and LPF in a PvE build, is when they have 10-15 potion buffs. I wonder how many of these 'HR's are unkillable' threads are biproducts of potion buffs?
So yeah...remove buffs from PvP or add in PvP Buff potions that cost glory. One or the other...
But these PvE potions have to go. They're a paid advantage and are directly more beneficial to the team which already has a gear advantage.
Complaining about people using potions is like complaining people using better gears & enchants....
If you can't afford potions, that's your problem, don't say it's unfair
If you can't afford perfect enchantments, that's your problem, don't say it's unfair
Practically all F2P games are P2W, deal with it
I can't believe a potter posted this. Oh wait I can
PvP in every game is an arms race. Every game people will use whatever they can get their hands on to buff themselves. I don't know of any games that have "fair naked PvP".
You cannot equate ONE aspect of a video game to the entire realm of sports...please.
Potions are available to everyone. They are not that expensive or hard to attain. The most powerful ones you don't even have to play the game to earn, just log in and pray (heck you get all the potion types from praying).
Quit pvping and sell elixirs
Once you enter PvP, all pots should be disabled and only PvP healing potions should be available for use.
Also swapping gear/artifacts should be disabled when entered PvP.
This will only make an even playing field, and especially players that are not geared to their teeth will have a better chance for a fight and they wont get discouraged instantly.
But this is a very hot topic since its a huge AD sink. As i have grown to known cryptic over the last year, unfortunately i dont think they will remove this. But if they did, they would gain new respect, in my eyes at least.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
And am one of the few who never cared about the pvp healing pots for long time and, even that i am using them now, still not rly dependant on them. Never ever had a single thought about using elixirs. It is not a requirement. Also i 99% of the time solo kiu the matches, winning, losing, jumping in the leaderboard by hundred/s pages yet never came on my mind that it was because of some potions.
I admit, sometimes i use heroism potion, but thats because there is no opportunity/reason (except when i solo kiu some harder dungeon where i have to do most of the work) to use them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
A new PVP'r shouldn't be on equal footing with a veteran simply by equipping T2 gear from PVE. Should they?
If you just want to toy with PVP to pass the time between dungeons runs or whatever you're waiting on, then you should expect that you will lose most matchs (but at least you can earn some glory or GG stuff).
If you want to turn your character into a PVP beast, then you should expect it will take some time (just like acquiring a full T2 set takes some time).
Now, if losing PVP matches was really debilitating to progessing at all in PVP, then I would see a need for re-balancing (like taking potions away).
I don't know, I've played many MMOs where the new PVPer had to earn his/her way to equal footing.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
But on top of everything said, i hate the separation of PvP and PvE (tenacity!). Its just another sign of how bad the game mechanic is set and instead of refining it, QA (is there any?) seems tending to assure it will be worse with every patch.
edit: nvm, its about pots, went OT
A new PvPer should be equal to an old PvPer if he has earned the gear ( which takes some time ) and the enchants (rank 10s etc)
But he should not be able to reach the amount of AD a old player can throw away for elixirs.
Altho on a side note, the GRIM and PROFOUND set are too close to eachother in stats. There should be a bigger difference. And that is how you should separate old vs new players, and not with elixirs. IMO
This!!!!!!!!!!!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
If we want to make a skill battle, which many say PvP is or should be, should it not happen on even footing?
Why is it OK that you with your perfVorp for 12kk beat me up with my lesser vorp,
but the game should be changed because someone can beat you up with a perfVorp + pots for 20k/hour?
most people only jump into pvp for the dailies, and want free ad all the while hindering the team they pug'd on.
if you dont want to use potions then that is your choice, why use enchants then, or gear, or artifacts?
you should be at a disadvantage if you aren't using everything you can for your character. i suppose your next post will be to disable rank 10's as well?
potions are the one thing that is so easily obtained and used i dont understand why you wouldnt use them? i have 8 characters that all do leadership and pray, just from them i supply my main with the potions and never have to buy them with ad, what is so hard about doing this?
if this game dont adopt pvp gs+armor/weapon enchantment tiers it will never EVER be playable, much less fair or "enjoyable".
I would play a lot more pvp it I could have more decent matches. In this game or you make everyone into pulp or you are the victim...
1) Not everyone in PvP is using pots. There are a few that come potted up all the time and the joy of killing them is that much sweeter.
2) The whole concept of "naked" PvP being noble is flawed on so many levels. First of all, it presumes that "true" PvP is merely the actual fight between two individuals. That the only skill that should be involved is that of who mashes which buttons faster and in a better order. You're asking for a game of ping and lag, not skill. It presumes that there is nothing else to PvP. In reality, PvP should (and does) begin before you even enter the arena. Choosing your build. Studying the feat trees to select your optimal skills for your preferred style of play. Carefully selecting what boons are actually going to help you, rather than harm you or provide no value at all. Selecting your gear based on how you want to play and tweaking it to get the maximum performance possible. Then taking all of that into the arena and honing your skills to the point where build and button mashing gel together. Getting stomped on and learning what happened to improve your game going forward. This is all PvP.
3) It all presumes that somehow taking away someone's ability to use pots means that you'll make the vulnerable. It's been my experience that going up against someone with 10 different pots running means that they're a pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> player to begin with that is using an edge to cover their bases because they don't know what they are going to walk into.
4) The PED argument is laughable. If someone found away to use a potion that is specifically not supposed to be used in PvP, then it would be an appropriate comparison. All of these are legal and valid to be used anywhere in Neverwinter, PvP included.
As I've mentioned before, I can get behind this concept, but the danger is that you lose the possibly of bringing in new blood. For every x number of players that are simply walking in to get their 4 matches for the day, there's going to be one player who comes in because it was on his/her daily list and finds out he/she loves it. You need to have a way of making that first look attractive to people.
No not everyone uses pots, because the good ones cost too much, but the people that have maxed out chars should not have more advantages against weaker players like having millions of AD and buying very powerful potions, having a doohickey and adorable pocket pet. All them stats add up and make a big difference. Domination should be just your basic char and items equipped.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Companions don't contribute in domination. And I have yet to see a Doohickey there either, so I'm assuming it's the same for them. They both do in IWD, though, but that's as it's meant to be since it's supposed to be open world PvP.
Setting aside the whole AD exploit talk that I'm sure is going to ensue from this, if someone has invested the time and energy to build a fortune of AD in this game to create their maxed out character, then they are absolutely entitled to whatever advantage it affords them.
I'm going to side with Ambi on this, though honestly I don't have strong feelings either way. The main problem I see is that pots don't contribute anything to the match. It takes no skill, no talent to click on 15 (or whatever) different potions. If you say everybody has equal access to them, what do you want the final result to be? Everybody running around fully potted? Is that any better than people running around with no pots?
I'll accept losing to people with better gear and enchants who don't know how to play their characters because gear is a natural part of MMOs. Arguably a truly "fair" PvP would normalize stats, but that would cause an uproar -- I mean, part of MMORPG progression is the acquisition of better gear.
On the other hand, pots are just ... pots. They're not a part of MMOs.
That's just my 2 cents.
Did Me just exit outernet? (Did I just enter Bizarro world?)
Which mmos feature no pots?
I feel ya, however they are no different than having rank 10s plus lockbox artifacts etc. Or 5 purple companions in open pvp.
Either you allow power creep in pvp or you don't. I don't think you should cherry pick out one aspect of the power and say that is wrong.
Now if you are arguing for a pvp mod where everyone has same gear then I am with you. Just add the option and keep the old ones as well. It would had a lot of fun and EVERYONE could participate as equals. Of course once you get beat, you are out of excuses