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A Thought On How to Fix Some Issues with PvP While Bringing in More PvPers
arimikami
Member Posts: 439 Arc User
This wouldn't address all the issues people have with PvP but, I think it would go a long ways towards fixing two of the larger issues.
Broken Leaderboard
Unbalanced Matches
First, get rid of the leaderboard we currently have. Keep the elo system for matching players against each other but, bury it so players can't see it. Don't let them know what their supposed ranking is and keep it purely for matching people up against each other when they queue for domination matches.
Next, make a new queue called Ranked PvP, or tournament PvP or, something like that. This new queue would not use elo at all. It would be assumed that all the people joining it are competent as well as very well geared. Don't allow solo queue for it either. Full teams only.
For this new queue, you do have a leaderboard. Have the leaderboard calculate based on wins, losses, kills, deaths, assists, nodes captured, nodes defended, damage dealt, damage received, hit points healed, and team mates saved from execution. Don't have GS factor into the scoring system at all since it's assumed anyone signing up for this would already be extremely well geared. If someone DCs or logs off in the middle of a match, it's treated as they lost the match and they're given a stiff point penalty on the leaderboards to discourage people from logging off to avoid a loss in a match. Give them one minute to get back in game in case it's a real DC, otherwise, it's a forfeit.
Here's the catch...
No glory or seals of victory would be earned in the ranked PvP queue. The people joining this wouldn't have any real need for either.
One thing many PvPers crave more than anything else is bragging rights. That's why we have people doing things like farming players that have no chance of beating them in a fight to pad their kill count and why some PvP teams will log off in the middle of a match to avoid taking a loss. The problem with the current leaderboard is that it's effectively meaningless when it comes to that. Who cares if someone has a couple thousand kills if they got them by farming people with half their GS? So, for ranked PvP, you give them something that proves they're good in no uncertain terms. Every 3 months, so four times a year, the top ten PvPers are awarded something before the leaderboard resets.
Ideas that come to mind are unique 110% run speed mounts, new titles, and new skins for weapons and armor. The specifics can vary but, what matters is that the only way to attain any of these things would be to win a season of ranked PvP. Not providing any rewards, aside from the seasonal prize, would also give the added benefit of serving as an AD sink since many of the people signing up for this would likely spend their surplus AD at the AH buying buff potions to get an additional edge over other competitors.
Ideally, I think a new domination map should be made for this as well. I'd like to see a hexagonal map that has teams starting in opposite corners with a node in each of the other four corners and a fifth node in the center of the map, forcing people to use real strategy as it would be nearly impossible to control all five nodes at all times.
Thoughts?
Broken Leaderboard
Unbalanced Matches
First, get rid of the leaderboard we currently have. Keep the elo system for matching players against each other but, bury it so players can't see it. Don't let them know what their supposed ranking is and keep it purely for matching people up against each other when they queue for domination matches.
Next, make a new queue called Ranked PvP, or tournament PvP or, something like that. This new queue would not use elo at all. It would be assumed that all the people joining it are competent as well as very well geared. Don't allow solo queue for it either. Full teams only.
For this new queue, you do have a leaderboard. Have the leaderboard calculate based on wins, losses, kills, deaths, assists, nodes captured, nodes defended, damage dealt, damage received, hit points healed, and team mates saved from execution. Don't have GS factor into the scoring system at all since it's assumed anyone signing up for this would already be extremely well geared. If someone DCs or logs off in the middle of a match, it's treated as they lost the match and they're given a stiff point penalty on the leaderboards to discourage people from logging off to avoid a loss in a match. Give them one minute to get back in game in case it's a real DC, otherwise, it's a forfeit.
Here's the catch...
No glory or seals of victory would be earned in the ranked PvP queue. The people joining this wouldn't have any real need for either.
One thing many PvPers crave more than anything else is bragging rights. That's why we have people doing things like farming players that have no chance of beating them in a fight to pad their kill count and why some PvP teams will log off in the middle of a match to avoid taking a loss. The problem with the current leaderboard is that it's effectively meaningless when it comes to that. Who cares if someone has a couple thousand kills if they got them by farming people with half their GS? So, for ranked PvP, you give them something that proves they're good in no uncertain terms. Every 3 months, so four times a year, the top ten PvPers are awarded something before the leaderboard resets.
Ideas that come to mind are unique 110% run speed mounts, new titles, and new skins for weapons and armor. The specifics can vary but, what matters is that the only way to attain any of these things would be to win a season of ranked PvP. Not providing any rewards, aside from the seasonal prize, would also give the added benefit of serving as an AD sink since many of the people signing up for this would likely spend their surplus AD at the AH buying buff potions to get an additional edge over other competitors.
Ideally, I think a new domination map should be made for this as well. I'd like to see a hexagonal map that has teams starting in opposite corners with a node in each of the other four corners and a fifth node in the center of the map, forcing people to use real strategy as it would be nearly impossible to control all five nodes at all times.
Thoughts?
Post edited by arimikami on
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Comments
Also, even for the other, non-ranked PvP #1 priority should be fix the matchmaking system, IMO. Too broken at this point.
I think you can still give Glory/seals for the ranked PvP. Give them cool stuff, of course, but nothing wrong with some Glory for participating in PvP? Especially if you PvP high level for fun, not really trying to get into the top 10 (which would be very, very, hard).
Hmmm, I think it could work. Oh, also, new domination map is a plus.
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Well, there are troll out there.
"One thing many PvPers crave more than anything else is bragging rights. That's why we have people doing things like farming players that have no chance of beating them in a fight to pad their kill count and why some PvP teams will log off in the middle of a match to avoid taking a loss. "
Don't you believe that a PvP guild will organize a "beat up team" for increased number farming? Meaning, I and 4 of my mates log in with a useless praying alt with 6k GS, and we try to get 5 of our PvP guild as enemies to help them "advance"?
As long as there is something to brag/show off it will be misused.
Cryptic will never normalize stats in PvP. Doing so would result in a loss of revenue for them. If everyone was forced to use the exact same gear in PvP, it would mean there would cease to be a reason for PvPers to purchase things like coalescent wards and faster mounts. I really don't see them doing that.
As for fixing the matchmaking system goes, you can't. Not really. The parameters for it can be fine tuned and it can be changed to take gear score into account but, that will result in people having to wait much longer for a match to begin. The obvious, and most sensible solution, is to remove what's causing the issue, namely players that out gear others to an absurd degree. The best way to do that is to create a whole new queue for them to sign up for and then incentivize them into doing so.
I really don't see a reason to give glory or seals in a new queue for end game PvPers. The kinds of people that would be queieing for this already have more glory than they know what to do with and, doing so removes the additional benefit of turning it into an AD sink.
@zshikara
Thank you.
@galaxy1045
And how exactly would people troll? Are you referring to how some people will queue up for domination matches using gear that's far below their level with no enchants? That was why I suggested making it so only full teams can queue for it. There would be no chance of getting someone like that on your team as your team composition would be decided by you and the other members of your team before queuing.
As far as this goes...
Don't you believe that a PvP guild will organize a "beat up team" for increased number farming? Meaning, I and 4 of my mates log in with a useless praying alt with 6k GS, and we try to get 5 of our PvP guild as enemies to help them "advance"?
Sure, you could do that. The problem with a plan like that is you don't get to pick who you're fighting against in a match. There's a chance you'll end up going against your friends and giving them an unfair advantage in the leaderboards but, there's just as strong a chance, if not stronger, that you'd give that advantage to someone else. I'm also counting on the fact that the top tier of PvP on Neverwinter isn't exactly the largest of a communities. I'm fairly confident the globals of anyone trying this would be recognized by the rest f the PvP community and that they'd be barred from being able to compete. There's also the fact that by doing this, you'd be HAMSTER yourself too, unless you're confident that you're guaranteed one of the top ten spots at the end of the season, no matter how well anyone else does.
This is one of the best ideas I've read regarding PVP. Since leaderboard is about to be reset with mod 4, I believe it's a great time and way to seperate premade PVP matches from solo PUG matches. It's mostly like this as of now but still there is a high probability that even if you queue as a two-man team, you'll be matched against a 5-man killing-squad premade in higher ELO rank tier (at least this is what usually happens to me). That's why I almost always solo queue in order to not face those teams.
People really caring about topping leaderboard doesn't solo queue anyway, thus getting people who don't strive climbing leaderboard away from their way may greatly enchance everyones PVP experience greatly.
Eh. I guess. I just figure that nobody knows what the cutoff for "well-geared" is ... differences in gear can still make a difference.
If not this, something close to this is needed for sure. Two queues, or at least a matchmaking system that takes GS into account and carefully keeps 11k PUGs away from 18k premades.
I don't PvP, but I have to say you have excellent ideas. Well done!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Competitive (high enchanted) pvpers are very small minority in the game, most vocal for sure. The ones who just wants boons wont join it, the PvPers who don't want to compete with rank 10s/perfects won't join it either. That does not leave many left.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
The community will very quickly determine which bracket is the most competitive (14 - 16k would be my bet) and skill will finally trump gear and queue times will fire off quickly.
Anharmon's suggestion is one I have thought about often as a way to bridge the divide and help the new guys be more effective and able to develop skills needed to be successful in PVP. They already have a so-so balancing system in place that allows L6 players fight along side L60s. It could conceivably be refined to allow the new guy dressed in greens and blues on your team (the ones we always grumble about) to be at least somewhat effective by boosting their relative stats. Sure they will still have a hard time against a skilled team or a 1v1 but they could CONTRIBUTE to the team in ways they cannot with the current system. With proper tuning all classes and levels of gear could be competitive and more folks would stay, develop skills and have FUN (not to mention shell out dinero to get better gear).
PVP vets with all R10s and perfects and finely tuned stats, don't fret as you will keep your edge with a system like this. You may have to work a bit harder and not steamroll teams as much, but the community will grow when given a fighting chance. Growing the community will allow the OPs suggestion to be more feasible with more Elite ranked matches, brackets, tournaments and grudge matches.
The current system is broken plain and simple and folks most willing to spend to get an edge are dwindling while Cryptic fiddles and Rome burns. I sincerely hope once ToD is out they can devote resources to a PVP revamp team and get the ball rolling on much needed changes.
@OP: Horrible idea. The problem is the current matchmaking algorithm which leads to the current situation which you only want to hide. You dont get rid of the problem and simply want a second option for premade matches of a very small minority of players.
The point is to make PvP enjoyable for the majority of people who can not afford r10 or best enchants. They want to play in their own league and I am sure that you will very likely find the most skilled PvPers in this group. The matchmaking must consider this group, not the few people who have the biggest virtual wallet.
Better you do PvP beforehand. And not 1-2 matches, but at least some 100-200. Then you will see the flaws in the current system which the OP suggestion is not going to resolve at all.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
You don't put a cut off on it. You let anyone that wants to sign up for it do so with the understanding that they are going to be going up against very strong and/or skilled opponents.
@thestaggy
The problem with that suggestion is that it removes a reason for getting items like weapon, armor, and r10 enchants. Acquiring these is a major money maker for Cryptic. They're not going to take a loss in revenue simply so people not spending money can have fun, even if it results in a slow death to PvP.
@d4rthd00fus
Same as above. Implementing something that standardizes gear results in less money for Cryptic as it means there's less reason for players to try to acquire the best possible gear.
@adernath
You can't fix the matchmaking algorithm. It's working as intended. Your only realistic choices are fine tuning it by narrowing down the searches with stricter parameters and having it take gear score into account, which would result in absurdly long wait times for everyone or, you remove those players that skew matches so heavily that people aren't having fun by creating an all new queue for them to use and then incentivizing them to use that queue. So, you can do something that punishes everyone for wanting fairer matches or, you do something that will result in some people having to wait longer for a match but, gives them much better rewards in return for their patience with the end result being that everyone has far more balanced matches.
I am not questioning that the algroithm doesnt work, but that this alorithm produces a pointless matchmaking, since it is not a gearscore matchmaking. It is like throwing Mike Tyson in a team together with a bunch of complete newbies against amateur boxers and make a rating of the outcome in the end. This is complete bullshift. Newbies have to fight with and against newbies, amateurs with and against amateurs and profis with and against profis.
A GS-matchmaking would correspond to the weight classes in boxing. It will only produce longer waiting times for the highest or lowest tier in gearscore, not for the majority of players. Many people already are willing to take longer waiting times, and besides this you can not judge from the waiting times which we had in the past, because in the past we also had not a gearscore matchmaking either.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
You can't simply go by gear score. There are plenty of people with high gear scores that are HAMSTER in PvP just like there are people with very low gear scores that are good. GS is definitely a factor and it can carry you through if you out gear your opponent enough but, it is not the end all, be all. If you were to create a queue that went purely by gear score you'd have the same problems you have now with very poorly balanced matches occurring which means there's no point in putting in the work on it as it doesn't fix the problem.
This means that for it to actually be effective, the matchmaker would have to take both gear score and ELO into account but, the matchmaker is also set to look for people that would be evenly matched and, if it can't find people that are evenly matched, it then grabs the closest it can find. The developers could easily tighten up the parameters so it's more selective when it pulls people from the queue to make a match but, that would increase the wait time to what it was before. Having it do that and only drawing people when it finds players in the queue that are matched in both ELO and gear score is going to create a vast wait time so, you wouldn't be waiting as long as you used to for matches to begin. You would be waiting longer.
The simplest, and most effective way to solve this problem would be to create an all new queue for the people that are creating the most unbalanced matches and then giving them a reason to use it, thereby removing them from the current pool of players that the matchmaker draws from to create matches. You then remove the current leaderboard from the game so that the people using the queue we currently have aren't fixating on things like their kill/death ratio or doing things like logging off to avoid losing a match and dropping in the standings. Instead, they're learning what is the most effective way to win matches so that when they're finally geared up enough to start competing in the new PvP queue, they also know how to play effectively instead of simply relying on their GS which wouldn't carry them through a match in the new queue anyways.
I really would recommend everyone contributing to the discussion to have at least some knowledge what is going on in PvP. Too may poster here dont even make PvP and dont understand the problem. I am wondering if people who continue and continue to bring arguments against this very simple idea ever played a PvP game like an Ego-shooter in which everyone has the same starting gear. They work perfectly well and this is nothing else what I am suggesting here.
Elo is first and foremost a rating between two individual players, not a mixture of an indvidual in a team as we have it here (and GS is currently included!) You will also not have to wait much longer to find players when you are not at one end of the GS bracket (and this can be easily prevented!). Are you joking? You can not determine if someone 'creates an unbalanced match'. Completely pointless suggestion.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Weapon and armour enchantments do not affect GS. You can quite easily be a 15k with a Perfect weapon and armour enchantment. You can ''twink'' at 8k with Perfects. Bracketing as I illustrated isn't perfect as some trolls will shed their gear and batter the true 8ks with their P.Vorpals, but it should be better overall.
Those players that do have R10s, they can still use them in the Open bracket. These are generally the same players that complain about queuing for 40-minutes and then PUGstomping. They now have two options; 1) unslot your R10s, slot R6s/7s and move down to where there are more players, lowering your queue times and almost guaranteeing balanced matches, or 2) stay in your R10s and queue for even longer or arrange for another premade to queue with you.
A compromise needs to be made. The R10 crowd can't have short queue times and balanced matches. The population is too small. However, a bracketed queue system gives them the opportunity to PVP frequently at a lower GS as well as still making max-geared premade vs premade a possibility. I know the top-end PVPers communicate across guilds, so PVP Guild A can say ''We have a premade ready to queue in Open'' and PVP Guild B can then accept the challenge. Both enter the queue within moments of each other and the queue triggers immediately.
Anyways, as arimikami already said, Cryptic wont probably make a change here. But then they will have to live with the fact that threads like this keep emerging. And I will also contribute to any discussion until something will change. Only by the number of threads demanding a change it should be very obvious that something is faulty (besides the fact that my blue-geared alts are significantly better ranked than my main).
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
I'd rather it is just an instant loss if they are not back when the match ends. People will start leaving at 1m left in the match otherwise. (actually rather there is no leaderboard at all, new or old, it will NOT be implemented properly, already proven fact.)
No one should be that caught up in this that a tallied loss is unacceptable on their sheet. It is just a game after all.
Also a series of level ranged pvp "instances" like tower district pvp can only flag from level 6 to 13 or some such, each level has a map that can flag / fight on and a non pvp version for those who don't want to risk pvp while doing quests / content / rp .
Not those things would add flavor.
Also a "arena' cage match two enter only one leaves, the other spawns at a campfire somewhere, perhaps random all over the place but safe enough that a level 10 character can leave the spawn sight, just not right outside the cage.
And cage matches have spectator seating to watch the fights where no one is flagged.
Maybe even include flavor things like hot dog (dragon burger) vendors and such just for RP?
There are so many things like that I would find enjoyable, and really probably not to hard to impliment, they already let us change instances, just some are pvp instances, and others are not and level locked keeps level 60's from ganking level 10's.
and add in no epics in pvp zones before level 60.