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Question: Class purpose
almondum
Member Posts: 313 Arc User
Hello everyone,
For a long while now I have been seeing a massive ammount of people wanting their CW's to be Damage Dealers instead of Controllers.
I'm seeing this in discussions at Preview forums, and at some posts at this forum section aswell.
Please, can someone explain me, why everyone want to go against the class "essence/name/core"?
There is a Warlock class coming, I think it's time to let go. You have a controller class for control, and a damage class (warlock) for pure damage dealing and that so "wanted" 1st place in Paingiver.
Why even bother about that bloody table with numbers? What matter is that the boss is dead in the end and you have the loot to roll....
I created and have my Control Wizard, made for Control. I use Frost enchantment to stunn the mobs for 4 sec, I use controlling powers to gather everything so GWF/HR use their AOE and kill everything fast. I interrupt big mobs like Driders to avoid their strong frontal attacks. I support my party by controlling the things around so they cannot harm the party.
Why everyone want to do damage at a class what is not supposed to be "supreme" in damage(Control Wizard)? Please, someone explain this to me.
It's like everyone thinks that this is that dead game called WoW where Mages are meant for DPS mainly, or like Aion where Sorcerers do massive damage burst.
Honestly, I think that a CW should be a very strong controller and a weak damage dealer.
If a CW can't compete with other classes in PVP, it does not mean that it's CW's fault, it can mean that:
- the game content is not very well designed to force CW use it's full control potencial
- other classes are too powerful
- CW needs a team to be effective, like the Devouted Cleric, they are "controllers" after all, it fills a support role.
Thank you for your attention,
Have fun,
Ceth.
For a long while now I have been seeing a massive ammount of people wanting their CW's to be Damage Dealers instead of Controllers.
I'm seeing this in discussions at Preview forums, and at some posts at this forum section aswell.
Please, can someone explain me, why everyone want to go against the class "essence/name/core"?
There is a Warlock class coming, I think it's time to let go. You have a controller class for control, and a damage class (warlock) for pure damage dealing and that so "wanted" 1st place in Paingiver.
Why even bother about that bloody table with numbers? What matter is that the boss is dead in the end and you have the loot to roll....
I created and have my Control Wizard, made for Control. I use Frost enchantment to stunn the mobs for 4 sec, I use controlling powers to gather everything so GWF/HR use their AOE and kill everything fast. I interrupt big mobs like Driders to avoid their strong frontal attacks. I support my party by controlling the things around so they cannot harm the party.
Why everyone want to do damage at a class what is not supposed to be "supreme" in damage(Control Wizard)? Please, someone explain this to me.
It's like everyone thinks that this is that dead game called WoW where Mages are meant for DPS mainly, or like Aion where Sorcerers do massive damage burst.
Honestly, I think that a CW should be a very strong controller and a weak damage dealer.
If a CW can't compete with other classes in PVP, it does not mean that it's CW's fault, it can mean that:
- the game content is not very well designed to force CW use it's full control potencial
- other classes are too powerful
- CW needs a team to be effective, like the Devouted Cleric, they are "controllers" after all, it fills a support role.
Thank you for your attention,
Have fun,
Ceth.
Post edited by almondum on
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Actually you have no idea. Because in DnD control wizard means aoe dps.
"A character with the controller role primarily handles crowds by creating hazardous terrain and repositioning enemies, or spreading conditions and damage over multiple enemies. The wizard is the classic controller class.[PHB:15]"
http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Controller
Go and read. Nothing more to say.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
(Birds can fly, they do. Fish can swim, they do. Controllers can kick mob booty. They do.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
In 4E, you have 4 main types of character roles:
Leaders: Healing and Buffing teammates, while debuffing enemies, making the easier targets
Defenders: Front line fighters who excel in soaking up damage and protecting other teammates
Controllers: Great at dealing with large numbers of enemies. Focus on AOE damage and weakening, confusing or delaying foes.
Strikers: Deal high amounts of damage to single targets, and typically bring the most concentrated offensive options to the table.
However, each class is still designed to deal damage.
These are what your classes in Neverwinter are based around, NOT what you saw in WoW or other traditional MMOs.
D&D wikia:
"Controllers deal with large numbers of enemies at the same time. They favor offense over defense, using powers that deal damage to multiple foes at once, as well as subtler powers that weaken, confuse, or delay their foes."
Controll only means you are dealing with multiple enemies at the same time! Noone said damage is forbidden!
I find it amusing when some forum warrior guys(or a specific other class doesn't it...?) would like the wave a red flag when some wizard eliminate a goblin camp.
"Hey wizard no damage!"
You go use your CW for controll I use mine for damage!
Every class has a dps tree and everyone has a support or a specific tree. Noone is binded to do something!
Btw I use my GWF only to support CW/DCs, take up the aggro, tank Draco and not to steal damage from CWs and push everything on every corner. Ugly isn't it?
According to D&D its a Defender class...
Agreed. Striker classes should be top of the chart for bosses, and AOE classes at the top for goblin camps.
"Controllers deal with large numbers of enemies at the same time. They favor offense over defense, using powers that deal damage to multiple foes at once, as well as subtler powers that weaken, confuse, or delay their foes."
So we have damage, weaken, confuse, delay. 3 out of 4 are not DPS. The quotes from the DnD wikia actually support the OP.
My biggest gripe with some CWs is this: when a DPS-crazed CW is running a DD with you, they will often use AOE dps powers that scatter mobs. If they stuck with AoE dps powers that gathered them up (like Singu), then the whole party could contribute to DPSing down the mobs, which equals a faster and easier run through the dungeon.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Only because there are more options (spells) at hand doesnt mean that damage must be split in four parts. To emphazise what you are quoting: They favor offense over defense. In classic DnD mages have even stronger spells which can kill a foe instantly for example, regardless of his HP pool. The difference here is we dont need to memorize spells and save them for the difficult fights.
Singularity slows everything down because it grants the mobs immunity to other abilities. Only in certain situations it is useful.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
But I think the real problem here is less about the CW's, and more about the mentality of the player. There are an awful lot of high-end CWs out there who give the rest of us a bad name by, when in a group, attempting to take it upon themselves to solo the dungeon him/herself when nobody asked them to. They make the other team members (even other CWs) feel weak and unneeded and, quite frankly, resentful towards the CW. I was in Epic Gray Wolf Den the other day with one of these 17k CW's who simply plowed ahead and nuked everything and did not care one bit that he left the rest of the group behind. That is selfish, rude behavior and it is behavior like that that emboldens those of other classes to demand CW nerfs. But even if CW were nerfed into the ground, this player instead would be playing a GWF or something and would still be running ahead and nuking mobs, leaving everyone else behind. You will always have jerks who aren't team players, so don't take it out on the CW class.
Yes I agree that this is not really how it should be. Lets wait what mod 4 brings as changes.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Noone said Rogues shouldn't have the best single target damage. Oh wait... GWF does with IBS...!
Sometimes they put 20-30 mobs per room. In certain dungeons there are rooms with 80 zombies and people are wondering why aoe dps is greater there.
Go with CW to DK and try to do half damage of the GWfs/TRs with same gear...
Thank you very much for the feedback. I visited those websites you posted, they were very useful.
Now I have 1 question. From what the CW does right now, we don't need other classes, CW's can do everything just by playing together.
Having such a versitile a powerful class is making others less wanted, won't this harm the game in long terms?
Once again, thanks for the answers!
Have fun,
Ceth.
You seem to equate offense with DPS. Weaken, confuse, and delay are all types of offense, too.
I have noticed the opposite. Singularity puts them all in one pile, and everyone nukes them down immediately after. The mobs don't survive long enough for cc immunity to become an issue. At least, that's what I've observed in 95% of all situations.
As far as actual dungeon clear times, comparing a DPS CW to a CC CW may be pointless. But if you ask players which CW they would rather group with, the answer is pretty clear.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I am completly sure you did never read something about D&D, and it makes sad that this community never did it too.
You guys clearly don't know anything about nothing by discussing such things.
I've posted many times, the way this game made Wizards is wrong.
Control does exist, and it can be achieved by many ways, wich DAMAGE is one.
WIZARD is a DAMAGE Controler.
Druid is controler
Psiun is a controler
Many other classes are controler, but they are distinguished by its role. Wizard is AOE DMG, Druid is field control, etc etc etc etc..
Stop posting things you guys don't know.
Singularity is a very useful tool (on live) but the only thing worse than following up sing with sing is following up with Ice Storm. (though Roar isn't so great either)
True - if you have multiple CWs in the party, typical class roles and mechanics are out the window. Those sort of parties make the other classes really feel like third wheels..lol
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
You both are right in the way that no single class should always outperform everyone else. But the problem is subtle... Usually wizards memorize spells and can not cast all time. But when you want that wizards use spells according to their class, the non-requirement in memorization makes them OP. Imagine a DnD wizard which can cast all his spells as often as he wants. However, lets wait and see what mod 4 will change.
In DnD wizards have also excellent single DPS. This is also in most other RPGs and in fantasy games. Wizards sacrifice alot for the sole purpose to gain power. They are also generally play the big bad counterpart in many adventures. It looks like you never played RPG-PnP before, did you? Yea this is true. But we have a very small selection of all those spells in this game. Mostly they are around damage dealing. I am all up for more of the other types, but then I want to have the choice of my methods. To be forced to cast only spells which 'confuse' mobs for example doesnt reflect the class well.
As the previous poster already pointed out (and I also said this before), casting singularity makes the mobs immune to shard and sudden storm. Singularity is only useful at draco or in dread vault (or whenever you want to push mobs from a cliff). I always hate when another CW opens a fight with singularity, because my main damage abilities wont work during that time. If you want further explanation: To make HV set and EoTS work (and cast shard or SS afterwards with crit) you should cast ST (in mod3 its a very reliable method to proc EoTS), but with singularity you must often stand very close to the moving trash, which can hit you during the grasping process. Being a glass cannon in PvE makes this very dangerous and therefore it is IMO very stupid to cast singularity in many situations. COI procs EoTS as well, but often not so reliable as ST.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Finally someone who gets it. CW/GWF only groups in VT/CN/ and MC (well, basically ALL the top dungeons) is boring, lame, and extremely bad for the game. If you have control AND top damage you don't need any other classes and I've done CW only groups many times with very few problems.
There are some very selfish players posting here that can't see past their desire for complete god mode, which is basically what we have now.
I have news; groups will kill things a LOT faster in mod 4 and CW will still be tops-with the right group makeup. I did a group on test with CW(me), DC, GF, SW, HR. GF threat is tripled for mod 4 so they will actually be able to hold agro. Range based threat is gone This are two huge changes that no one is talking about.
1st of all, the DC told us all to fight inside of astral shield. Common sense I know but some need to be reminded. His reasoning was he was casting Forgemasters flame for the linked spirit buff, all in the circle were getting 2,000+ power for every fight+a big AOE heal. The DC also had Blessing of Battle feated and we were getting another 1k+ power from that. So from the DC everyone was getting 3k+ power per fight. The GF was hitting "Into The Fray" every time it refreshed, which with his Damage resistance was giving the whole group a +35% damage buff. The DC was also alternating beween Hallowed ground and Anointed army. I checked my power once with Anointed army buff up and I had 18k power...........this to go with the GF's 35% damage buff, and things were dropping faster than prom dresses.
The big deal though was the GF. NO ONE WAS GETTING HIT. I didn't have to run, I didn't use potions, I didn't teleport.
This game has gotten a healthy dose of inter class dependency. It's definitely not finished, because you'll still pick a CW over a SW, HR, GWF, and TR But groups kicking players because they're the wrong class shouldn't happen anymore, or at least a lot less. 5 CW groups and GWF/CW only groups are going to struggle. GF is the new dungeon class and GF can't work without DC.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
This is a big deal, and an underrated part of the changes. Having to move, dodge and try to stay alive while taking all the aggro is a huge DPS lost for CW's.
In Module 4, you can bet your sweet orbs I'll be taking a GF with me. When you have someone tanking and can just stand and cast, your damage potential shoots through the roof. Not to mention all the extra juicy buffs the GF brings to the table.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Doubt they will change the way dungeons or mobs are, so better to take away CW damage and give it to someone else. I retired my CW+GWF because it's just not fun doing the same thing as everyone else in the party. I'm hoping it will be different after mod4, if not i'll keep my CW sleeping.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
The object of the game is to damage mobs down to 0.