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Oxford Challenge! Guys, jog my memory on what it means to be ...
rustlord
Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
1. PermaStealth
2. Semi-PermaStealth
3. Combat
4. Striker
5. Notorious 1Shot
6. PvE TR
7. Executioner
I'll start with my own thoughts;
1. This is the PermaStealth by INTRogue, is it not? If it's something else, it has to be the original Bait n Switch, Shadow Strike rotation where the third encounter is free and not necessarily have to be ITC. The spec that can, in theory, stay indefinitely in stealth under duress. It has maximized Stealth feats, Saboteur and gearing goes towards RSI. Whether Gloaming Cut was in the original specs, I can't confirm that!
2. Semi-PermaStealth ~ well this is where most of my own confusion lies. What does being semi-perma mean? Just because you use Shadow Strike, which is simply one power, does it have to mean you are a Semi-Perma TR? I'd say not. By your definition would this take stealth feats into account to be a legit Semi-Perma spec? I personally use Shadow Strike in my own loadout, but see myself as a Combat TR. The waters are too murky in this area.
3. Combat, by my standards, is simply a style of gameplay and not a spec... You may correct me if you think differently. But I believe if you're a combat rogue, your goal is to go in the fray, smack some punches and go down swinging.
4. Striker in my book is the opposite of a Combat TR, in the sense that it's goal is to ambush. Likewise, it's a style of play and not a spec. Your goal is to go in, deal a crapton of damage, and get yourself out of dodge before the enemy has the time to react.
5. In my BETA days, I've seen many people get one shotted, though in different ways. One shotting by Lurker's Assault Lashing Blade seems legit to me against low armor classes. One shot by 40K LB without Lurkers is extremely OP. Note that back then, with Lurker's on, you can 1Shot with Impact Shots too... much later, there were (rarely seen) Shocking Executions from full health. In my book, one shotting means taking a person from full health to zero in a non-daily spammable way and that was way too OP.
6. Obsolete. PvE TR had been reduced to next to nothing, but it's still possible to pack a punch if you build for it in the extremes. Though you will never best an equally geared PvE spec CW or GWF at present conditions. My other definition of a PvE TR is a wandering loose-cannon in PvP that you can stomp with your eyes closed...but if you happen to be careless enough, they can surprise you with a truckfull of burst DPS.
7. When you say Executioner, do you refer to the PvE TR or the Striker? Coz people say "I'm Executioner" a lot, and it's incredibly vague and doesn't tell us anything. Executioner is a paragon tree and you can be "Executioner" almost whichever way you spec.
OK, that's all I have to say for now.
Time for bickering.
Post edited by rustlord on
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Comments
1 I think you got it
2 I think this means you are a TR and use some of the powers and feats that boost Stealth, and use it to advantage.. In other words, means nothing.
3 Someone decided at some point to call melee combat instead. It is used as the opposite of ranged, but it's all combat.
4 Far as I know, striker is just a role. All TR's are considered strikers, at least in the eyes of the people who wrote the game.
5 One shot.. I don't PvP, but I think the term was probably mostly used by weak players/builds when killed by someone who wasn't. Just a guess though.
6 PvE TR is fine, but only in the right parties. If an all DPS party, they are great. Toss in a cleric and a lowbie or two and there might be trouble. They are still boss killers, if done right, but yeah... they are not desired, so keep the nerfs a-coming. <sarcasm>
7 Executioner is a Paragon tree. Saboteur, Scoundrel, Executioner. Any other use is someone mis-using the term.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
I use Shadow Strike personally, but am not specced to have a long enough stealth duration, low cooldown to have this partial stealth/immune even if I use the same rotation, so using Shadow Strike alone does not make me or one a semi. It is simply a stealth refill mechanic.
For a balanced TR like myself, combat and striker are blurred such that it's simply how you adapt in situations. I could be slashing away at every enemy around me with sly flourish outside of stealth, or blitz the mob and enter stealth to burn/burst down 1 or 2 elites before I slash with sly flourish. I don't see a point to classify TRs as between the 2.
Can't really one shot or 2 shot anyone with encounters alone anymore. At best it's a 2 shot with daily, even then is against those without barkshield or CW's without shield. Otherwise you have to add DF into the mix before you can burst a player. And the soulforgers you need to toss daggers...
For me, PVE DPS is all about CA, crit severity, and AP generation. No big secret, get as much as you can.
To me, Executioneer just means the paragon path of choice. Usually I assume executioneers have decent sustained damage for PVE purposes. Some may refer to TRs as executioneers as a term for dealing burst damage in PVP, but that's not exactly common anymore.
they have most op encounter in the game wicked reminder which reminds everyone how wicked it is.
and it viable in pvp to.
but people need to start to theory craft more
tr has crazy potential outside the perma <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
i mean huge but people chose to take easy way out
i was just using the blitz dazing wk combo in pvp and its still in testing but man that stuff is op
im coming out with new build very soon 4,5 k aoe crits,stuns,debuff,helping the team
crazy stuff
2. Semi-Perma: PotB/SS/ITC - People who claim to be "permas" but the Stealth isn't really all that permanent as going out of Stealth is not a choice, unlike for real Permastealth Rogues.
3. Combat Rogues: IDK man, sounds more like an oxymoron for me. Rogues are supposed to be sneaky, as per my personal definition.
4. Striker: A class role that is meant to deal damage.
5. 1-Shot Rogues: More like 1 Shot Executioners.
6. PvE Rogue: Extinct.
7. Executioner: A Paragon Feat Path.
2. Semi-PermaStealth Hyena's Build, Thranduil Build (presented in BI gear test video)
3. Combat Well, there are high survivability PBI gear based builds, played to some extent. Combat rogues due to slow Dazing strike are limited in options, but i would say that the main frame sets around survivability, out of stealth combat and control (if only dazing would be better again).
4. Striker - Dungeons And Daragons 4 edition role type indicating primary occupation as damage dealer in a group. This role deviates depending on build (in pen and paper RPG you have following specs: Artful Dodger (charisma based), Brutal Scoundrel (str damage based), Ruthless Ruffian (status heavy thug, with mace as a weapon, str AND cha based), and Cunning Sneak, int based as a secondary stat in order to take improved cunning sneak permastealth feat). Some specs lean to ranged, some to melee, but Rogue primary role should be always DPS and he should ALWAYS top dps "Controler" occupation class such as Wizard or druid, and primary defender roles such as Fighter (doesn't matter if great weapon or shield - in pen and paper u just cant beat rogue or ranger on dpr with a fighter if they are minimaxed).
5. Notorious 1Shot - this relates to notorious big movie event that happened somewhere in 2009 correct :P
6. PvE TR - ouch, this game made one of the best pen and paper damage per round strikers to it's knees when it comes to a dungeon crawl. The pen and paper 4th edtion rules were all about balance, so mages and casters were given control but not damage, while single target strikers were all left with superb hit power to compensate lack of multiple target hitters known as AOE (bursts and blasts in pen and paper) and the lack of control (to some extent). Of course you had possibility to focus more on AOE aspect but you were droping alot of big hitters on the way, leaning toward more controling type of character wizard is.
7. Executioner - In this game it's a paragon feat tree (0ne of 3), but in pen and paper it is realy a separate class called by others: Assassin, related to rogue, death attack big hits and poison use, plus almost always permastealth combo. It didn't had all those fancy dexterous acrobatic moves standard rogue had, but it had the simple power to hit using basic attacks and slaping additional damage onto it from combat advantage situations as encounter based bonuses.
■ A TR build/combat tactic that aims to allow the proponent TR to stay within extremely prolonged stealth duration which either repeats multiple times, or in some cases indefinately. Most of its inspiration derives from a few pioneering TRs such as X3lade or INTrogue or etc etc., but difficult to exactly pinpoint when the current concept was finished, since it was constantly developed/evolved over the years.
■ Major components of the build/tactic includes extreme investment into INT stat to lower recharge as much as possible, as well as the characteristic encounters of BnS and SS used for two of the three encounter slots.
■ A TR build/tactic that is a major deviation from the traditional "Perma-stealth" concept. The origin of the term starts from yours truly, as I was the first one to coin the term "semi-perma", which before did not have any common distinction between the TR community.
■ It is also unclear just when exactly the "semi-perma" build/tactic began to take shape that is commonly recognized today. As mentioned above it is thought to be derived from Perma builds, but is characteristic in its much shorter repetition of stealth. However, one of its characteristic trait being the "stay within stealth when vulnerable, stay in ITC when visible", which as a matter of fact is a principle shared with the perma builds -- although the actual manifestation is different.
■ The semi-perma most characteristically utilizes the at-will powers of DF and CoS, with the encounters being ITC and BnS, which leaves one optional use of encounter slot to be used either as an attack or utility.
■ Semi-permas utilize at most usually two consecutive stealth durations, and then utilizing the use of ITC when the inevitable "visible timing" comes out due to SS recharge time, so usually it comes down to something similar to a rotation which consists of 2 consecutive stealth durations → ITC
■ The "semi-perma" style is also considered to be currently the most versatile TR build/tactic, in that it retains the same defensive philosophy/efficiency as the permas despite its shorter consecutive stealth durations, while greatly enhancing its offensive value albeit at a bit of a personal risk by getting within melee range -- although much of the danger can be mitigated through personal skill and awareness.
■ Another term that originates from yours truly, this term was very first used to describe an alternate playstyle of TRs which do not emphasize in solo node-contesting/back-node infiltration/harassment, but rather emphasizes on the TR as an active combatant in a team-level combat in hot spots.
■ The term was first used when I started professing my ideas about alternative combat philosophies, starting with study into individual encounter powers rarely used -- during the time any discussion concerning a TR build/method that did not revolve around the traditional "perma" or "semi-perma" styles were simply considered foolhardy.
■ The study originally began with a study of Smoke Bomb as to deterr GWF onslaught against the team's DCs and CWs, which during mod2 days solo-survival against a GWF with DC or CW classes seemed very difficult. At that time it seemed that there were no other class in PvP that can directly assist, or "emergency bailout" the team's DC or CW when it was in trouble. Hence the only class that could buy enough time, with the only encounter power that provided direct defense against GWFs.
■ The original concept evolved into a use of "support TRs", directly aimed against GWFs, which would lay out Smoke Bomb as AoE defense for the team's CW/DCs, while at the same time providing additional attack/debuff through Wicked Reminder. This concept met significant challenges from the traditional TR crowd, and hence the need to emphasize and convince a totally different TR combat philosophy was required -- which from that need, the term "Combat TRs" was born.
■ No exact definition of this term is given, as it seems the term is still not widely recognized. In most cases it seems to denote a variation of the "Combat TR", in the sense that this brand of TRs would stay with the team as a direct combatant to fight with team-level coordination, but instead of the persisiting support method, it would actually shift more to the origins of the TR in that it would try maximize the attack potential -- sort of a 'controlled/limited glass cannon', if you will.
■ Again, no TR build/tactic has been exactly disclosed to denote this 'Striker TR' concept, but empirically it seems to suggest a non-perma or semi-perma style that invests heavily in the use of 'executioner role' with particularly the Daily powers of Shoxecution and attack encounter of Lashing Blades.
■ What it lacks in defense it makes up by staying with the team, relying on other players to divert the attention that might fall to the TR, as well as receiving buffs and heals, or being aided through CCs -- in which case the role of the "hammer", dealing great amounts of single target damage, while the other teammates would be the "anvil".
■ An ancient build/tactic that is no longer possible. This concept was alive when in the days certain powers -- most representative of them being Lashing Blades -- held an internal bug which used to not respect the defense values of its target. Hence, in the very early days TRs used to be able to deal damage in the 20k~30k range, in some cases 30k and above. During these days the normal/average expectancy of HP levels for PvP builds were around 25~30k at most. The PvP standards nowadays which emphasize of HP pools of over 30k, was not common back then. TRs also need not emphasize much into HP at all, since any successful approach to one's target within stealth almost guaranteed a kill with the use of auto-critting LB from stealth.
■ Some time afterwards, LB was fixed to correctly respect defensive values which grealy diminished its damage potential, which has nowadays dropped around somewhere between 15k~18k crits on average. Also, evolution of PvP builds with increased HP pools have limited its efficiency, hence LB, which once would result in somewhere between 80%~full HP damage with a single hit, has now dropped to maybe 40% HP damage at most.
■ Any TR build/tactic that is not directly aimed for PvP use. Most usually the difference from PvP builds is that it usually has less HP, more investment into Power, and less emphasis on continued stealth.
■ Extremely vague concept. Seems to denote a combat style that emphasizes on the "finisher" role.
■ IE., in the traditional sense an RPG class composition may have an "alpha/opener" role, and a "executioner/closer" role. The former ususally meaning the traditional tank class which would open up with the first attack to draw and absorb the alpha strike from mobs... for PC controlled AI mobs, the alpha attack is usually the one and only instance where AI actively results in a coordinated/focused attack against one player -- usually being the most deadly moment when fighting AIs, from which point on, the risks and dangers slowly diminish over time. In this case, the tank is usually forced to survival, and at the same time, working on AoE attacks to maximize aggro over the field.
■ While the tank is drawing aggro, the rest of the classes which focus on DPS to eliminate mobs are usually considered as "finishers", although this term is not widely used. Curiously enough, the term "executioner" usually applies to single-target oriented, melee DPS roles. You don't see ranged classes such as HRs or CWs being called "executioners", and these classes would more commonly be called "nukers", or just "DPS". The term "executioner" seem to be a poetic term that is reserved for stealth-classes only, probably drawing from their "assassin" imagery.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The hell we are. :P
Can't speak to PvP builds because I'm, gasp, a PvP TR, but I can speak to what I see the PvE TRs I play with doing and what I do myself.
- Power is stacked, always. Crit somewhere around 2.8-3k to hit 50% chance but not so much as to go massively into DR. Apen gets to 24% and stops. Tend to have some recovery but not lots. LS is usually decently high. Defensive stats all over the place but not usually very high Deflect since that really has to be built for. Often 1-1.3k of each, Deflect often lower. Personally I have almost no deflect and 1800-2000 Def. HP stacking doesn't seem to happen much, but some is taken into account because a dead TR does no damage.
- DEX is generally highest, followed by STR, followed by CHA(given how <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> CHA is, this is obvious). INT isn't a priority; may be decent depending on what you did with your stats. (Mine is 14 without buffs but I'm a wood elf so I got a + to it. If I could reroll without it nuking my appearance I'd actually go for a higher INT roll, but.)
- Gear is unsurprisingly PvE-oriented. Almost always Swashbuckling Captain armor set, generally Fallen Dragon or Dread Legion weapon set, Vorpal and Soulforged are the almost exclusive enchants. Ioun Stones of some sort or cats. Never regen/HP rings like PvP. The one I recall the artifacts on uses Lantern/GWF sigil/DC sigil with DC as active. I have Lantern/GWF/Eye but am looking at swapping things around.)
- Nearly always Master Infiltrator Executioner. Most take Disciple of Strength in heroic feats in my experience, though I took Improved Cunning Sneak for better Stealth when I'm actually in it.
- Rarely use stealth refill powers. I used to, but I stopped. Common encounter powers are Lashing Blade, Dazing Strike, Wicked Reminder(usually at bosses), Smoke Bomb, Impossible to Catch. Dailies tend to be Whirlwind and Lurker's. Duelist's Flurry is a massive chunk of a PvE TR's damage and is used almost exclusively as the at-will. Secondaries tend to be either Sly Flourish or Cloud of Steel.
- Crit Severity is your best friend and usually heavily buffed. Jagged Blade companion, the Executioner feats for it, the Vorpal, etc. Enough power/crit severity and a team full of buffs/debuffs and you can get some obscenely high LB crits. My best is 82k, but my power's a bit low; I know one who's gotten over 100k. Obviously you do it from stealth with full Deadly Momentum stacks.
This works fairly well, but you're obviously still not going to win Paingiver unless the people you're with are incompetent because derp TR.
This is obviously not that useful in PvP, but I've never enjoyed PvP in any game, so eh. Besides, nearly every time I do bother queuing for PvP it's some one-sided stomp fest, which I don't find fun even on the winning side. Just lack the PvP mindset.
I used to run a more stealth-based setup/build, but switched to more open combat after the power rework when Mod 3 hit and it's actually been much better damage-wise. In a party the other members take the aggro off of you to where you regen your stealth fast enough to usually have it and LB ready at the same time.
D&D wikia:
"Controllers deal with large numbers of enemies at the same time. They favor offense over defense, using powers that deal damage to multiple foes at once, as well as subtler powers that weaken, confuse, or delay their foes.
A character with the controller role primarily handles crowds by creating hazardous terrain and repositioning enemies, or spreading conditions and damage over multiple enemies. The wizard is the classic controller class."
According to D&D its not forbidden to a D&D control class to damage. Control means dealing with multiple enemies at the same time. See above!
were does it say only one class can be viable in dungeon
i miss that part
Of course, you can make more status designed or control designed rogue, or more damage focused mage, and they would meet somewhere in the middle, but as it is, there is a simple fact - rogue is top notch DPR (damage per round of combat) while CW is not.
And since this game is based on 4th edition of D&D i am unsatisfied with all the buzz around TR having to good DPS (bugs are bugs, but we all can agree they overnerfed the class).
On top of everything they took the least performing paragon path rogue have to offer... Where is a Daggermaster might i ask?
Who said that?
I only says if we are citating D&D than at least do it punctually!
"Control cannot do damage" is only a slogan for CW nerf wishers lacking any real D&D confirmation!
Sure!
Cast a fireball or a meteor shower to the middle of a goblin camp while the rogue is backslabbing a single goblin boss! How cannot be a rogue outdps by a controller? If this term even exist in pen&paper!
Btw unfortunatelly for this thinking the wizard secondary role is also striker according to D&D!
If we are starting to pull D&D stuff we quickly realized these CWs are a very simplified things compared to them (no triggered spells; no power words, no cloudkill, no summons. simplified Time Stop).
there wasnt a single nerf cw thread here
go away never come back
I see you are unfamiliar with 4 edition rules. Please buy a book and then argue. ok? In 4th edition you do not have powerwords. Almost all of them are extinguished, and unusable. You are not fighting 1d8 HP goblins, but goblins with about 20-30hp on level 1 (and a fireball does wooping 3d6 + int modifier + static modifiers damage, and is not accessible until level 5 when monsters usualy go 30-50hp or arouind 70 if they are elites. Besides rogue have toys like "knockdown" daily which put the target unconcious alowing coup de grace instant kill on level 9 (on a troll elite with 100hp) while mage single most damaging ability does around 3d8+int to a single target. Not to mention sneak mechanic alows him to use sneak attack once per every combatant turn and if triggered (rogue have alot of outside of round reactions) alows to apply 2d6 (in heroic their lvl 1-10, more afterwards, and if u take feat "backstabber" you turn those dices to d8) to attack more than once per round of combat.
Simple calculation: Rogue using riposte strike at will, from level 1 while holding rapier will do:
1d8 + 2d8 sneak + dex mod (usualy 4-5) + around 1 from magic and trigger reaction in that targets round which does about same damage (total 6d8 +dex + str + 2 or more from static mods)
And that is an at is AT will. Not a single wizard at will can do that. And i told you about damage capability of dailies above? Oh and guess what? Rogue have AOE powers too (but actually that would drop him lower in dps pushing him closer to controler role).
The only thing wizard is better at is: stunning, slowing, sliding, pushing aka CONTROLING the enemy. He will not win a dps race...
And NO, the wizard presented here is different from it's original in pen and paper only because he does to much damage period.
"Hey wizard no dps!"
You guess what! In that case HRs also primary role: contollers. Lower their dps. GWFs: primary role: defender lower their dps also. Warlock: primary role:controller lower their dps right now!
Noone on earth can do dps which was labelled with the flag "controller" isn't it?
that was not the point,
tr has garbage single target dmg,cw has huge aoe dmg
same gear tr should do at least 2 times the single target as cw
and its doing 10 to 20% more that is absurd
how do u exlain that
I will shock you but the second/first best DPR (damage per round) single target class is ranger who is: a STRIKER, not a controler. Yes mate. Ranger have nothing to do with a control in 4e pen and paper. GWF is a Fighter. Fighter have 5 specializations in 4e, 2 of which are Defenders, and their DPR is pitty, and 3 of which are secondary role striker and their damage is also pitty if u compare them to ranger/rogue/warlock/sorcerer/avenger. So all in all, yes fighter should not have as much dps as rogue does in terms of balance, because he does have greater health numbers and survivability tanking skills at his disposal (that is pen and paper wise, but clearly the devs didn't went that way because it was to hard for them to base fully on clear 4 edition lol).
There is another class, which they somehow mixed into ranger, which is called Seeker, a primal archer controler.
Controlers should be toned down in terms of damage they do to every single target they are attacking, while single target STRIKERS (TR) should have their damage increased back. It should be a glass cannon as it is in 4e. There is always a game of rock, paper & scisors going on, and some classes should be squishier than other. Right now, Controlers excel in dps, while single target dps is not durable enought and not strong enough to beat defender with secondary role striker LOL.
All because people were one shoted. Well guess what: in pen and paper rogue player can oneshot almost any other party member. But without defender and control support he dies like a fly in elite encounters.
PS: Warlock, 4e (as well as the editions before) primary role - Striker (aka single target damage)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlock_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
Stealth until 2 squares away, then hit knockdown rogue daily lvl 9, following low slash minor, or any high damage encounter for a 100% crit coup the grace, that will kill the Dumbledore, then /spit and walk away. Thats how you save time.
- 8k Power
- 50% Crit
- pVorp
- Swashbuckler
MI Exe TR in PvE singletarget. None. PvP is a different story - but that has more todo with the roles of the classes (and a couple of broken skills).
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
I had a TR in mod1 which I used in CN farms . I had to replace to GWF because nobody wanted a TR in a group in a melee role if they can bring a GWF instead.
TRs should do more single target damage then anybody (in theory)! In reality GWFs do lots more single target damage with 100k+ IBS.
In DK there should be 2-3-4TR on boss but in reality there are 3-4GWF/DC(CW) parties.
thats true to some extend but 10 to 20% more means nothing on last boss
which makes tr useless.
10gs cw can out dps any tr in the game
TR is useless in every dungeon that can't get exploited anymore. Due to TR's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> AoE damage compared to all other classes (thats why people take GWF instead of TR - not because of GWF can out-dps TR in single target - sheeeesh) it just takes longer to run a dungeon.
If you want to run a dungeon as fast as possible your party will just move as far as possible (closed doors) and then melt the adds down. Best way to do it? 3 CWs, 2 GWFs. Thats the whole story behind it.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
This is because devs are giving you only medicore toys at your disposal, and to be honest, most of the powers you have in this game, are being the worst powers in 4e pen and paper. Paragon paths are awful in comparison to Perfect Assassin, Daggermaster...
The thing is, TR should offer more usable debuff that would mean something, The current game mechanic works for TR only in PVP. And only partialy, because GWF is still there. With reduced AOE damage, CW and GWF would not be primary participants anymore, and the lack of good enrage timers on bosses reduces the viability of single target DPS. With proper enrage timers, single target dps would be in a higher demand.
Alright lets see how you solve this one:
Sorcerer: primary role striker; only secondary role: controller. Tremendous damage; casting elemental spells like crazy; no need for memorizing like wizards...
EDIT: why bring sorcerer here? that's a different class than Control wizard, there is no sorcerer playable class in Neverwinter.
Actually, the Hunter Ranger in NW is based off the Hunter from Essentials, which is a ranger subclass whose primary role is, indeed, controller.
While this might be the idea behind, the fact that he possess dailes and ranger encounters is rather far from the idea of essential class don't you agree?
And they combined scout+PHB ranger+hunter in one...