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Gauntlgrym PVP: luskan vs delzoun

maarghaan979maarghaan979 Member Posts: 2
edited July 2014 in PvE Discussion
1. what is reason that delzoun wins 99% of time?
2. what can we (or devs) do to change this?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • maarghaan979maarghaan979 Member Posts: 2
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    PvP guilds may contradict me on this, but I rarely have the pleasure of doing GG with them as a Luskan.
    Anyway, there's 2 basic reasons.
    1. for some reason most PvE guilds appear to be Luskan. They often lack both PvP strategy as well as the firepower to be a decent opponent. Not much teamwork, most people run around GG for themselves to get T1 gear. All classes, including the worst suitable for PvP, are represented. Their playstyle basically comes down to trying to take nodes.
    2. Delzouns play GG together. They understand teamwork, often team up as guild teams and are generally made up of the top 4 FotM PvP classes, mostly GF and GWFs. Their playstyle comes down to "kill everything that moves. we'll capture nodes later".

    Results: they roflroar over everything else 10-1 till Luskans are forced to stay in camp with 90% of the delzouns waiting downstairs for easy victims or trying to glitch their way into the spawncamp itself. In the meantime, all nodes are Delzoun, and everybody's playing the waiting game.

    What can be done? Not much. It's a player problem really. The only thing Cryptic can do is change the guild allegiance to random personal allegiance when entering the map. But that will make a lot of people angry.

    ok... can u tell me why PVErs chose luskun and PVPer choose delzoun... is there any adventages/disventages of choosing sides? i dont think this would be the reason, IMO...
  • degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    ok... can u tell me why PVErs chose luskun and PVPer choose delzoun... is there any adventages/disventages of choosing sides? i dont think this would be the reason, IMO...

    Many PVP guilds actually run Luskan. It's advantageous because:

    1) We can always get in to get our dailies.
    2) We can queue together in 5-20 player teams.
    3) We really don't care about running DKC.

    Good times.
    PWP_zpsf8f711ce.jpg
    Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Imo, it mostly comes down to preference. Our guild is admittedly Delzoun, but we picked our faction BEFORE the imbalance of them was out in the open. Plus, the 750k faction change is a bit much, isn't it?

    Personally, we run DK, and I like it more than FC(despite sometimes getting bad pugs for it lol).

    But, if they did somethings, I wouldnt have a problem seeing if our guild would change:

    -open up DK to both sides, but give some incentive to the PVP winners...

    -put the faction change cost at FREE...
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • dustintheclouddustinthecloud Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    PvP guilds may contradict me on this, but I rarely have the pleasure of doing GG with them as a Luskan.
    Anyway, there's 2 basic reasons.
    1. for some reason most PvE guilds appear to be Luskan. They often lack both PvP strategy as well as the firepower to be a decent opponent. Not much teamwork, most people run around GG for themselves to get T1 gear. All classes, including the worst suitable for PvP, are represented. Their playstyle basically comes down to trying to take nodes. Holding nodes is next to impossible, so they prefer to ride fast from node to node, praying there's no GWF party laying in ambush.
    2. Delzouns play GG together. They understand teamwork, often team up as guild teams and are generally made up of the top 4 FotM PvP classes, mostly GF and GWFs. Most of them are veteran PvPers. Their playstyle comes down to "kill everything that moves. we'll capture nodes later".

    Results: they roflroar over everything else 10-1 till Luskans are forced to stay in camp with 90% of the delzouns waiting downstairs for easy victims or trying to glitch their way into the spawncamp itself. In the meantime, all nodes are Delzoun, and everybody's playing the waiting game.

    What can be done? Not much. It's a player problem really. The only thing Cryptic can do is change the guild allegiance to random personal allegiance when entering the map. But that will make a lot of people angry.

    Most PVP oriented guild changed long time ago to Luskan, since if u're Delzoun is really hard to get queued in 1 of these matches...
  • tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    Do me a favor and do so when I'm in GG. We have a shadow guild, but doing GG is often a last minute decision so we forget/lack time to change xD Anyway, you being in one of the larger PvP guilds and a Luskan yourself if I remember correctly, what's your view on Luskans not being able to win GG when your guild or a large number of Deviants are absent?

    Most larger PvP guilds will try and form a full 4 parties for GG(sometimes with assistance from other PvP guilds) this is why it is rare to be "that lucky pug" as it's sometimes called who gets into a 19 PvP guild player luskan instance.

    Luskans typically lose PvP becuase of a variety of reasons:
    1. Lack of gear. Many luskans have very subpar gear resulting in people running around with blues or the salvage purples with 20k HP.
    2. Lack of knowledge/experience. Because they don't PvP much they aren't always useful in a fight. I've seen times when the Luskan zerg has rushed in, 10+ strong to help me in a 1v5 and they've all died and I'm still 1v2, often becuase they are not using the right powers or simply because of point 1.
    3. Slower mounts. 110% = faster capping than 50% pony. Lots of luskans have ponies. Most delzoun have 110% mounts.
    4. Losing attitude. They die once and they afk leaving the rest of the team at a numerical loss. Luskan is home of the AD-Afker, where they're only here for the daily.
    5. Selfish attitude. Rarely do you see a luskan or two staying to contest a node and deny the opposition points. While in delzoun you routinely have players or groups of players playing for the win and not the cap/kill.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,488 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I've seen a number of times when the majority of the Luskan team just quits contesting nodes, either staying in spawn or else roaming around looking off node for Delzouns to fight. I've seen them doing this when they were winning the match up until the point they quit trying and the overall GG score was close or even in their favor. It seems to me that it boils down to the fact that a large number simply don't care. Just doing it for the daily, get some points and then go off and do whatever.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    Delzouns do not win GG PVP 99% of the time.

    How many GG games are going on at the 30-25min mark? Subtract that from 2-3 instances wherein PVP guilds absolutely destroy and spawn camp the delzoun, now add the games with 5min or less wherein ANYBODY can win if the zerg chooses the right path to rotate to
  • refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    I accidentally joined the Luskans. I did not realise it was an Account-wide thing for the entire Guild. That was many months ago, and I only recently had enough AD to spare to switch sides, especially as my Dwarf wants to restore the place, not ransack it.

    But I noticed that Delzoun always won when I was with the Luskans. Until I switched to Delzoun, and now Luskan always win.

    I'm not sure if those things are actually real, much like the apparent total absence of Zen on the Exchange. Is there really NO one trying to sell Zen?

    ~
  • davecheesedavecheese Member Posts: 170 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Things I'd do for GG:

    1) Remove all mounts and npc monsters
    2) Redesign the level so there's more variety of terrain and one or two more chokepoints.
    3) Have variations on game type... ie 10v10
  • asatyr9asatyr9 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    Next time just make a shadow guild. 10G is a lot cheaper than 750k AD.
    Anyway, I haven't seen a GG in a while where Delzouns aren't victorious in the end. Maybe because no Luskan does the 2nd PvE stage? they rarely win that part. And since they also lose GG PvP.. 2-1 is a delzoun win?

    I disagree with your odds. Just hit the 50 GG pvp mark, and my campaign says I have 5 wins. That's 1:10 for Luskan on Dragon. I work hard and spend most of my time fighting/dying, but I have over 100 captures and only 19 kills/assists. That's 1 kill in 2.5 matches. At the same time I have seen top players average 60 kills/assists with under 5 deaths; The highest being 27/0/53. I have a fair chance of winning a 1v1 fight with my 13k gs GF, but not when getting rolled over by 5-10 players. This really is broken and unrealistic for a campaign, easy for some and impossible for others. Sure I could save up and shell out 700k AD for my small guild, but I shouldn't have to. It's like the others have said there are likely many reasons we lose, but the system is unbalanced.
  • degraafinationdegraafination Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »

    Do me a favor and do so when I'm in GG. We have a shadow guild, but doing GG is often a last minute decision so we forget/lack time to change xD Anyway, you being in one of the larger PvP guilds and a Luskan yourself if I remember correctly, what's your view on Luskans not being able to win GG when your guild or a large number of Deviants are absent?

    My thoughts? Outside of the PVP guilds in Luskan, Luskan stinks at PVP! Simple as that.
    PWP_zpsf8f711ce.jpg
    Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Luskan is a group of pro and intelligent person who only stay at the node beside their spawn campfire even when other nodes are red. I used to solo cap one red node till i die, but the rest luskan just camp at one node or straight afk at spawn. The tide turns fast, when luskan start to lose points, no one cares abt it. So, I just walk to the nearest point and farm some assists tasks under 50% hp.... And yes, luskans are very poor and cant even afford a epic mount, some even enter GG with 6k gs only. When i see such ridiculous scenario, i blacked out.
  • refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    magenubbie wrote: »
    Next time just make a shadow guild. 10G is a lot cheaper than 750k AD.

    Huh? What's that? A Shadow Guild? I though you could be in only one Guild! :confused:

    How do you form a Shadow Guild and switch sides for 10 gp instead of 750k AD? Or is that 10 Grym coins? Either way, I have a stack of both.

    I wish I had known that last week!

    ~
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    jazzfong wrote: »
    Luskan is a group of pro and intelligent person who only stay at the node beside their spawn campfire even when other nodes are red. I used to solo cap one red node till i die, but the rest luskan just camp at one node or straight afk at spawn. The tide turns fast, when luskan start to lose points, no one cares abt it. So, I just walk to the nearest point and farm some assists tasks under 50% hp.... And yes, luskans are very poor and cant even afford a epic mount, some even enter GG with 6k gs only. When i see such ridiculous scenario, i blacked out.

    Im delz and I probably have a 60% winning percentage, there are many times you hit a good luskan group, I do find that if one side is going to get totally stompped it seems to be luskan , but there are times Ive lost 1400 to 600 or so, just luck of the draw, if you go against one of the top guilds, you will end up loosing in all likely hood.

    I wish I was luskan sometimes though, alot of days , never get in at all.. thats with queuing before phase and right away.
  • nedruodnedruod Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 31
    edited July 2014
    The reason Delzoun wins comes down to numbers and that relates to history.

    Basically, a long time ago, at least in Neverwinter time there was a bug. This bug allowed players to leave the starting area before the match officially started (while it still said "Waiting for Players"). This bug affected both teams at first, but in a patch where they attempted to fix for both teams, they actually only stopped Luskan from leaving. This remained the state of the game for several months.

    While this bug only gave Delzoun maybe a 50-100 point advantage, it was extremely demoralizing to start the game with an unfairly assessed disadvantage. So people switched to Delzoun, especially all the power gamer types. This meant not only did Delzoun have more players, but had a higher average quality. They won all the GG's and all the PvP matches, not just because of the bug, but because slightly because of the bug, but more because of the community effects the bug triggered.

    Once this imbalance was established, even after the bug was fixed, Delzoun was going to win all the GG's (for DK) due to sheer numbers. Luskan wins some of the PvP matches these days, because some PvP guilds did switch due to the ability to get into queues, thus at least to some degree rectifying the quality of player imbalance. But the numerical imbalance remains in place, and if it's changing at all, it's changing very slowly.
  • tang56tang56 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    iCVLxoj.jpg
    Found this old gem in the EoA forums.
    RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    DID no delz run left? lol.
  • maarghaan979maarghaan979 Member Posts: 2
    edited July 2014
    nedruod wrote: »
    The reason Delzoun wins comes down to numbers and that relates to history.

    Basically, a long time ago, at least in Neverwinter time there was a bug. This bug allowed players to leave the starting area before the match officially started (while it still said "Waiting for Players"). This bug affected both teams at first, but in a patch where they attempted to fix for both teams, they actually only stopped Luskan from leaving. This remained the state of the game for several months.

    While this bug only gave Delzoun maybe a 50-100 point advantage, it was extremely demoralizing to start the game with an unfairly assessed disadvantage. So people switched to Delzoun, especially all the power gamer types. This meant not only did Delzoun have more players, but had a higher average quality. They won all the GG's and all the PvP matches, not just because of the bug, but because slightly because of the bug, but more because of the community effects the bug triggered.

    Once this imbalance was established, even after the bug was fixed, Delzoun was going to win all the GG's (for DK) due to sheer numbers. Luskan wins some of the PvP matches these days, because some PvP guilds did switch due to the ability to get into queues, thus at least to some degree rectifying the quality of player imbalance. But the numerical imbalance remains in place, and if it's changing at all, it's changing very slowly.

    finally some logical explanation... tnx :)
  • asatyr9asatyr9 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Wow, so Delzoun has been whipped before. Worst I've been in was Lusk: 86, Delz: 3000. We captured 2 points, got smashed, and 3/4 of Luskan went and ordered pizza while Delzoun cc trapped the few that dared to say hi.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    iCVLxoj.jpg
    Found this old gem in the EoA forums.

    Holy bleeeeeppppp!!!! That's just brutal. I wish I could see it.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited July 2014
    tang56 wrote: »
    iCVLxoj.jpg
    Found this old gem in the EoA forums.

    These are the scores I was expecting whenever a full EOA or full Synergy guild runs GG.

    I can't see EOA doing it right now as they don't have as many players but I've heard Synergy still does it
  • reilz1981reilz1981 Member Posts: 512 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    i do both the pve and pvp and always find the dwarves have a huge lead regardless of how well you do its like the luskans have this huge handicap that we have to overcome just to get close i have won maybe a handful of times
    Actual Join date: Dec 2007
  • lady808lady808 Member Posts: 107 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Back when the servers were still separate... On Dragon, the majority of the PvP guilds (except for Lemonade Stand, they went Delz because they wanted the challenge) were all Luskan. Delz lost regularly. Even with the buff from part 1 and cheating by jumping gates and capturing all the points, they'd end up getting wiped big time. Then the server merge happened and, apparently, a LOT of the PvP guilds from the other servers were all Delz. Sadly, by this point, a bunch of the "older" PvP folks started not logging in anymore. This lead to a greater imbalance in forces.

    I'm sure people could speculate on why the guilds went Delz or Lusk. The guild I was in at the time went Lusk because we didn't care for the coat of arms for Delz. We liked the crossed swords better than the bearded dwarf face. I'm sure a lot of other guilds went with Delz because they wanted to be the "good guys" and wanted to "represent". This certainly seemed true on Dragon. A LOT of the RP folks went Delz because they wanted to be the "good guys". Unfortunately for Delz, they took part in the GG events and I'm sure that didn't help them in the PvP part.
    __________________________________________________

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  • huggormmasterhuggormmaster Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited July 2014

  • huggormmasterhuggormmaster Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Holy bleeeeeppppp!!!! That's just brutal. I wish I could see it.

    See what 15 vs 1 lol, well I killed some of them and it was 10 vs 1. With a big guild all can do this and it's so boring.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    See what 15 vs 1 lol, well I killed some of them and it was 10 vs 1. With a big guild all can do this and it's so boring.

    Honestly I want to see the spread of people sent to different points at the start. 13 points means that they only held a point maybe two for a couple seconds before it was contested and never got it back. That's the part I'm really curious about. Was it small groups to every point? Back cap immediately then go for your closer points? etc etc etc.
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