props to the devs and a suggestion

reilz1981

i just want to say i have been coming here since this game was only a few drawings, there have been many changes, some i liked others i didnt, but overall i think everyone involved has done well.

The classes are really going good and i understand some balance is still being worked out.

What i would like to suggest is mechanics for dungeons and pvp that require a certain class is there like for example traps make them 1 hit kill, and only obvious for rogues.

Have magical locks that only cw can open, have bosses that you need the scourge warlock to damage, have blocks of solid steel that you cant pass without a cleric supplicating to their god to remove.

I think these examples should put my point across, at present people get into dungeons because of damage or healing or tanking where it could be so much more meaningful and people might have to think to get through.

on a side note i love the mechanics behind kessils retreat its almost DM worthy lol

str8slayer

Nah, if you do this then there's only one group composition that works best for each dungeon. Do you really want to run the same exact comp that many times? Also, there's more than 5 classes now, that means classes would be excluded from certain dungeons.

celticgamer0

I would love them to expand on the race/class quests.

charononus

str8slayer wrote: »

Nah, if you do this then there's only one group composition that works best for each dungeon. Do you really want to run the same exact comp that many times? Also, there's more than 5 classes now, that means classes would be excluded from certain dungeons.

This.

I've seen other games take this tactic, unless the loot from it was completely OP that type of content then doesn't get run, and if the loot is op then it's farmed by a few groups till they get it, certain classes are unwelcome and once the high end people get the loot, it doesn't get run. It's just not a good way of doing things.

Now with how avoidable traps are in this game there is something to be said for bumping their damage up, but that's as far as I would go with it.

frishter

Well classes shouldn't be an absolute requirement to progress, but having incentives is no problem such a better traps as stated or mages unlocking an optional area with actual decent loot.

bioshrike

The key, IMO, is to make everyone desirable by mixing up the enemy types and abilities more. For instance, have enemies that are extremely powerful, but also very weak to control effects, (not only can they be locked down, but said effects actually hurt them). Have other enemies that are extremely resistant to AoE damage, but single target attacks cut through them quickly. Have some enemies that are very powerful when fought from the front, but if someone can get the jump on them, (read: combat advantage), they take a lot more damage. Have yet other enemies that must "concentrate" to be effective, so being distracted, (read: taunted), they become less effective. Maybe some enemies are weak vs arcane attacks, but vulnerable to mundane one, or visa-versa.

We need something other than bags of HP that hit for big numbers, because all that's doing is driving up the gearscore requirements.

charononus

frishter wrote: »

Well classes shouldn't be an absolute requirement to progress, but having incentives is no problem such a better traps as stated or mages unlocking an optional area with actual decent loot.

First of all there doesn't need to be a CW incentive right now but lets say that all the classes are balanced and no comp is better than any other. Unless that loot is completely over powered no one will unlock that door. It's not good design. It's well intentioned. It works well in a pnp campaign, but it fails utterly in an mmo. The other dnd mmo tried it. The dungeons they did in this manner were uniformly hated by the playerbase. Then they tried it in only optional encounters. People just skipped it, with rare exceptions for where incredibly overpowered loot could be found. It's a very very bad idea in an mmo. It sounds good on paper but it does not work in practice. It's been tried, it didn't work.

bioshrike wrote: »

The key, IMO, is to make everyone desirable by mixing up the enemy types and abilities more. For instance, have enemies that are extremely powerful, but also very weak to control effects, (not only can they be locked down, but said effects actually hurt them). Have other enemies that are extremely resistant to AoE damage, but single target attacks cut through them quickly. Have some enemies that are very powerful when fought from the front, but if someone can get the jump on them, (read: combat advantage), they take a lot more damage. Have yet other enemies that must "concentrate" to be effective, so being distracted, (read: taunted), they become less effective. Maybe some enemies are weak vs arcane attacks, but vulnerable to mundane one, or visa-versa.

We need something other than bags of HP that hit for big numbers, because all that's doing is driving up the gearscore requirements.

This however would work.

oicidraz

bioshrike wrote: »

The key, IMO, is to make everyone desirable by mixing up the enemy types and abilities more. For instance, have enemies that are extremely powerful, but also very weak to control effects, (not only can they be locked down, but said effects actually hurt them). Have other enemies that are extremely resistant to AoE damage, but single target attacks cut through them quickly. Have some enemies that are very powerful when fought from the front, but if someone can get the jump on them, (read: combat advantage), they take a lot more damage. Have yet other enemies that must "concentrate" to be effective, so being distracted, (read: taunted), they become less effective. Maybe some enemies are weak vs arcane attacks, but vulnerable to mundane one, or visa-versa.

We need something other than bags of HP that hit for big numbers, because all that's doing is driving up the gearscore requirements.

Yeah, the mobs right now are all equal, just trash mobs with the same DR over and over and over, and 10 of them each 'x' amount of steps and time to time some "elite" mobs (not so elite ), it would be pretty good if in some parts of the dungeon there were some real elite mobs, I mean CC inmune and as strong as berserkers in SP or the White Spiders in ToS (I don't remember their name) but CC inmune!!!, then a Tank could be desired a lot more!, other thing that would be good is make (in general) all bossess faster and stronger (right now all the dificullt is in the waves of mobs and not in the boss, if for example, the bossess were a lot faster and not so easy to dodge then a Tank could be requested more), the other idea I like is making some mobs more resistant to magic than others and others more resistant to phyisical damage, also if devs put some tramps (not a lot) in the map with the locations randomly chosen when you enter, and if they hit something like 2K - 18K (or 10% to 80% of your missing HP) a TR could be desired to disable them, etc...

I want originality in the dungeons, devs... incentive the raimbow parties!!!.

ordensmarschall

So what is the answer to making dungeons more inclusive and interesting? Right now it's all DPS. While every class can do the dungeons as they are designed now, some are excluded anyway by the population base simply because they do not do enough and "slow" the group down. The problem is two fold.
1. The design of the dungeons.
The dungeons are just hack and slash at the moment. Difficulty is determined by the number of mobs, not the actual encounters themselves. Outside of a few Boss monster areas, no real thought is required in order to complete them. Valindra's Tower is an example where the players do need to think about how to defeat Valindra, and cooperate in order to do so. Most do not fall into this category. While better at Boss design, the dungeon itself is rather boring. It is more or less a sprint track to get to Valindra. The earlier Dungeons showed much more creativity, with branches off of the main path that could be explored.
2. The one dimensional design of the classes.
Many of the classes in the table top version have skills that are damage orientated, but utilitarian in nature. This avenue is not included in the current class design. Thieves can do much more then "Backstab", this is barely touched upon by the Disarm Traps ability. Clerics can do more than heal, their current debuff spells give some examples of this, but is still rather limited. Wizards have a number of utility spells that are not included here.

The locked door example is a good one for a start. There are many ways this can be overcome. A thief could pick the lock, a wizard could cast a Knock spell, a fighter could bash it in. All it takes is some creativity on the part of the developers, and a little bit of imagination on the part of the players. I rather enjoyed the puzzles in Pirate King, I thought it was a good touch. Another thing I liked about that dungeon was where all of the different treasure chests were hidden. I wished more dungeons were built like that.

wimpazoid

Add class synergies and bonus rewards.

I prefer classes to be useful and feel wanted in dungeons without mechanics that require to have party compositions.

Class synergies as in each class provides a team buff applicable only in dungeons.
TR- buff team movement speed, slow enemy speed within XX radius
GF- buff defense
CW- grants damage absorption
GWF- buff CC resist
DC- grants enemy resist debuff

Bonus rewards depending on classes in party from boss loot
TR- extra shard
GF- extra seals
CW- extra potions
GWF- extra gold
DC- extra injury kits

None of which are game changing, but merely serves as an incentive for running dungeons.

charononus

wimpazoid wrote: »

Add class synergies and bonus rewards.

I prefer classes to be useful and feel wanted in dungeons without mechanics that require to have party compositions.

Class synergies as in each class provides a team buff applicable only in dungeons.
TR- buff team movement speed, slow enemy speed within XX radius
GF- buff defense
CW- grants damage absorption
GWF- buff CC resist
DC- grants enemy resist debuff

Bonus rewards depending on classes in party from boss loot
TR- extra shard
GF- extra seals
CW- extra potions
GWF- extra gold
DC- extra injury kits

None of which are game changing, but merely serves as an incentive for running dungeons.

Umm you realize that only the TR reward you propose is an actual reward right?

wimpazoid

charononus wrote: »

Umm you realize that only the TR reward you propose is an actual reward right?

I suppose, I'm thinking more in context with each class. TR just seems like it would find treasure, and that's pretty much what drops when you kill stuff without repeating stuff. Seals are as good loot too. They don't need to be rolled like a shard drop and you get plenty of AD by trading them for rings. But I seem to have forgotten about marks, peridots and aquamarines while coming up with those..

TR- extra shard
GF- extra seals
CW- extra mark of random quality
GWF- extra refining stone of random quality
DC- extra gear of random quality, with chance of epic accessory