I already stated in my previous post that there are tons and tons of backlogged zen purchase requests. So it really isn't affecting the paying customers that much. They still sell their zen, it just isn't apparent because as orders are filled, more zen requests are put up.
Who exactly will be frustrated? I don't know how it will frustrate the people buying zen from PWE. I can see it frustrating the people who will add more zen purchase requests to the already enormous amount.
I stand by my point,
"Cryptic wants you to buy zen using real money. If you continually use your diamonds to add to the millions of backlogged of zen requests in the ZAX, Cryptic does not earn anything. "
So does everyone on this thread get that in their heads now?
Whether it's backlogged or not, Cryptic are still earning whenever an exchange is made. If its backlogged more people want to spend real money in store, if it's not then more people want to spend their money on AD. If they suddenly started adding several lust worthy items that you can buy for ad instead of the zen store, they'd still see an increase of zen sales even if it does make the zen exchange rate fall. However it does look better for the game if they don't have such a feature almost broken. The exchange doesn't necessarily have to be backlogged to entice people to buy more zen.
As for who would be frustrated. If I was new to the game, I'd be frustrated and leave the game for multiple issues with the game. However I'm an older player and have managed to earn a decent amount by investing a lot of time, and maybe some has to do with a little bit of money invested but that probably didn't have that much of an impact, so I don't quite feel the need to leave.
For example they did the egg event to drain the backlog. As you can imagine, that still gave them more zen sales. That should show that they have interest in having a properly working exchange.
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
For example they did the egg event to drain the backlog. As you can imagine, that still gave them more zen sales. That should show that they have interest in having a properly working exchange.
Actually, I'd think part of the fast 'clearing' of the backlog was people canning their buy orders, to buy eggs instead. As usual, the whales got fatter (by having more to spend, and thus get more chickens to pawn off). There might have been some Zen sales, but the backlog cleared too fast.
0
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As for the ZAX, I think it is an essential problem that it is so easy to abuse.
One way to get rich quick:
1. Use your ADs to buy Zen.
2. Buy something for Zen.
3. Sell the stuff you bought for Zen, which gives you more AD than you started with.
4. Go back to 1, except now you can afford even more Zen.
Yup. Case in point, pres wards vs 500AD/z cap.
Buy 2k zen, exchange on zax = 1mill AD
or
Buy 2k zen, buy 200 pres wards with zen, sell for ~8k AD per ward then take away 10% AH cut = 1.44mill AD.
Pretty easy to figure out why nobody wants to sell their zen to people through the zax, especially since the items that sell best(keys and pres wards, certain dyes) are only available through the zen store (well, you can get wards through invoking and lockboxes, but invoking will never give you enough to fill you needs and lockboxes = keys).
Simple fact is if you want AD and buy zen, sell zen store items in AH. If you want zen and only have AD...better get some cash flow or decide if you want to buy the items you were gonna get with zen off the AH for a 30-60% mark up instead.
Yes, having a cap on zen->AD sounds like a good idea, but then people realize that there's no cap on zen->key->AD and the zen exchange just becomes a ghost town.
Guess what? It's not broken. It's called a free economy based on supply and demand. Step outside in the real world and learn what it is.
Do I like the 3mil backlog? Nope. But that's how it is. Not everything you don't like is broken.
I hate to break it to you but "free" economy implies you can price AD/Zen however the market likes. That can't be further from the truth when there is a cap.
However it does look better for the game if they don't have such a feature almost broken. The exchange doesn't necessarily have to be backlogged to entice people to buy more zen.
As for who would be frustrated. If I was new to the game, I'd be frustrated and leave the game for multiple issues with the game. However I'm an older player and have managed to earn a decent amount by investing a lot of time, and maybe some has to do with a little bit of money invested but that probably didn't have that much of an impact, so I don't quite feel the need to leave.
For example they did the egg event to drain the backlog. As you can imagine, that still gave them more zen sales. That should show that they have interest in having a properly working exchange.
Gotta agree with this.
What would be so bad if they added some AD only items to entice people to spend AD and reduce the backlog?
Whether it's backlogged or not, Cryptic are still earning whenever an exchange is made. If its backlogged more people want to spend real money in store, if it's not then more people want to spend their money on AD. If they suddenly started adding several lust worthy items that you can buy for ad instead of the zen store, they'd still see an increase of zen sales even if it does make the zen exchange rate fall. However it does look better for the game if they don't have such a feature almost broken. The exchange doesn't necessarily have to be backlogged to entice people to buy more zen.
As for who would be frustrated. If I was new to the game, I'd be frustrated and leave the game for multiple issues with the game. However I'm an older player and have managed to earn a decent amount by investing a lot of time, and maybe some has to do with a little bit of money invested but that probably didn't have that much of an impact, so I don't quite feel the need to leave.
For example they did the egg event to drain the backlog. As you can imagine, that still gave them more zen sales. That should show that they have interest in having a properly working exchange.
Right Cryptic still earns money whether AD is backlogged or not because paying customers still get their zen. That is the only point everyone should get in their heads. I wouldn't call backlogged broken. I think that is a poor adjective to use.
You know what would look better? More endgame PVE content, more PVP game modes, more classes. That is what makes a difference, not whether AD is backlogged or not.
What would be so bad if they added some AD only items to entice people to spend AD and reduce the backlog?
They have no huge incentive to reduce backlog. People paying for zen are still getting their diamonds. In fact, they are getting the best rate 500ad/zen plus their zen is worth even more (when converted into preservation wards or keys) due to the fact that every zen item is now overpriced in the auction house due to its scarcity.
Cryptic wins. Paying customers win. Freeloaders....well some of them get zen eventually.
They have no huge incentive to reduce backlog. People paying for zen are still getting their diamonds. In fact, they are getting the best rate 500ad/zen plus their zen is worth even more (when converted into preservation wards or keys) due to the fact that every zen item is now overpriced in the auction house due to its scarcity.
Cryptic wins. Paying customers win. Freeloaders....well some of them get zen eventually.
They have no huge incentive to reduce backlog. People paying for zen are still getting their diamonds. In fact, they are getting the best rate 500ad/zen plus their zen is worth even more (when converted into preservation wards or keys) due to the fact that every zen item is now overpriced in the auction house due to its scarcity.
Cryptic wins. Paying customers win. Freeloaders....well some of them get zen eventually.
Yes and no. A F2P game is "healthy" as long as it mantains its appeal to "free" users and small spenders. As long as it has a huge population, even with a small % of spenders, people will still spend a lot. Once a game raises a "paywall" to most of its content, it's actively locking out free users, that might grow tired of not being able to get nice things only by playing (a lot). Once the population starts to drop, it's hard for a F2P game to recover, it will most probably die out slowly.
Yes and no. A F2P game is "healthy" as long as it mantains its appeal to "free" users and small spenders. As long as it has a huge population, even with a small % of spenders, people will still spend a lot. Once a game raises a "paywall" to most of its content, it's actively locking out free users, that might grow tired of not being able to get nice things only by playing (a lot). Once the population starts to drop, it's hard for a F2P game to recover, it will most probably die out slowly.
Ehhh. You bring a good valid point in a vaccum but you fail to relate it to this case so I'll say no to that.
In this case, it does not raise a paywall to most of its content. Items on the zen store are very negligible in terms of progression especially when you consider the auction house. Keys are wholly irrelevant for progression and content unlocking. Perfect enchants can still be bought at the auction house at a 1-2mil price hike (as of now)
The population slowly declining will be due to the lack of PVE endgame content, slow class rebalancing, no new PVP maps/game modes, normal decline in-between modules and class releases. It is ridiculous to attribute someone leaving because of AD backlogging.
The GF being ignored for a year is a good case, this one is just plain stupid.
I already stated in my previous post that there are tons and tons of backlogged zen purchase requests. So it really isn't affecting the paying customers that much. They still sell their zen, it just isn't apparent because as orders are filled, more zen requests are put up.
Who exactly will be frustrated? I don't know how it will frustrate the people buying zen from PWE. I can see it frustrating the people who will add more zen purchase requests to the already enormous amount.
I stand by my point,
"Cryptic wants you to buy zen using real money. If you continually use your diamonds to add to the millions of backlogged of zen requests in the ZAX, Cryptic does not earn anything. "
So does everyone on this thread get that in their heads now?
THIS is the answer! Read it, understand it, and please stop posting "Zen-AD market is broken" posts! Some people apparently have no idea how to run a successful business. Sigh . . .
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Right Cryptic still earns money whether AD is backlogged or not because paying customers still get their zen. That is the only point everyone should get in their heads. I wouldn't call backlogged broken. I think that is a poor adjective to use.
You know what would look better? More endgame PVE content, more PVP game modes, more classes. That is what makes a difference, not whether AD is backlogged or not.
Absolutely. I think a little bit of effort is all that's needed to keep a stable economy rather than risk having it escalate. But of course real end game content is what this game so desperately needs. The initial content had a lot more lifespan than any of the new content and it's vital that they change that. As for the exchange being broken, it still works, but the backlog is increasing with no signs of that changing which means that it could really be broken (used loosely) if you don't want to wait weeks or months for your zen. Some of the suggestions are ones that would improve the experience anyway such as reducing companion/mount upgrade costs which wouldn't take long. Sadly there's a lot of things that need attention and not everything can be done at once.
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biggensakMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited June 2014
The Zen market is not broken, it's simply stagnant due to the 500 AD per unit cap and presence of other more profitable AD exchange options.
With the Zen to AD exchange rate capped @500 and Lesser Coalescent Wards selling for 800-850 AD per Zen invested in the Auction house there is no incentive for informed people to participate in the exchange. Really, the locked exchange rate is primarily exploiting the ignorance of folks who are not familiar with the Auction House market and exchanging ZEN for 60-70% of it's ultimate value. Anyone who actually buys at 500 is getting a great deal since they can flip their investment purchasing Lesser Coalescent Wards to sell in the AH and make 30-40% profit instantly which is probably a big chunk of your 3 million backlogged buy orders.
The fix is to either completely remove or raise the Zen-AD unit cap to at least 1000 AD, which likely won't go past the 800-850 that players currently make reselling LCW in the Auction house once the initial demand backlog is met.
I don't understand the notion that "Cryptic does not earn anything" if people buy Zen for AD, however... Zen only enters the economy if someone purchases it for real money in the first place. Zen is going to be consumed in the Zen Market on bags/bank space, BOE items that get used or go to the Auction House for AD, or sold to other players via the PAX. The PAX doesn't impact or compete with Cryptic's interests in any way and in fact clearly fulfills a demand from players who want to directly purchase AD in the game, perhaps without the risks of playing the AH market. Even if a long time player only buys Zen with AD and never spends a dime on the game themselves, the Zen they are buying for AD was still purchased from Cryptic for real money by someone, most likely a newer player looking to trade money for time spent grinding in the game for certain items or other commodities. It's really win-win for everyone involved.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
Guess what? It's not broken. It's called a free economy based on supply and demand. Step outside in the real world and learn what it is.
Do I like the 3mil backlog? Nope. But that's how it is. Not everything you don't like is broken.
???
Free economy based on supply and demand states nothing about caps on prices.
If it was a free economy we would be allowed to exchange it for more than 500 AD/ZEN. Like 670 or 700.
Just add an option for people to buy items from the Market with Zen in addition to AD that would solve the problem.
0
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited June 2014
There is only one way to fix the current situation: it's to remove the price cap on the AD/ZEN exchange.
Price caps are only short-term measures to protect from sudden hyper-inflation (caused by unforseen sudden changes/distortions in the economy, very rare cases and not our case for sure.), as a structural measure they offer no protection against inflation and only cause shortages.
And don't take it from me, a lowly nobody with a degree in economics. Take it from the economists themselves, and what most of them think about forms of price control in general.
Just add an option for people to buy items from the Market with Zen in addition to AD that would solve the problem.
If you could replace Zen directly with AD (even if you needed to still pay a certain amount of Zen), the game would be shut down in a couple months, since the Invoke and Leadership Botters would reap the benefits instantly. The way it is now, they either WAIT, or they pay out of their rear on the Auctionhouse. Working as intended.
There is only one way to fix the current situation: it's to remove the price cap on the AD/ZEN exchange.
Price caps are only short-term measures to protect from sudden hyper-inflation (caused by unforseen sudden changes/distortions in the economy, very rare cases and not our case for sure.), as a structural measure they offer no protection against inflation and only cause shortages.
And don't take it from me, a lowly nobody with a degree in economics. Take it from the economists themselves, and what most of them think about forms of price control in general.
I'm not disagreeing with you but remember Neverwinter's economy doesn't completely follow a normal economy because resources aren't actually limited. We can both buy the same horse instead of only one of us getting it as it would be IRL. If the price cap was removed it won't necessarily change the supply of zen much. If there isn't anything worth buying with AD people still won't sell. I concede that it could open up supply as well. But there are a lot of people like me who don't really need so much AD so at this time I won't sell any zen no matter how high the price went.
Nixon the TR
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
0
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
I'm not disagreeing with you but remember Neverwinter's economy doesn't completely follow a normal economy because resources aren't actually limited. We can both buy the same horse instead of only one of us getting it as it would be IRL. If the price cap was removed it won't necessarily change the supply of zen much. If there isn't anything worth buying with AD people still won't sell. I concede that it could open up supply as well. But there are a lot of people like me who don't really need so much AD so at this time I won't sell any zen no matter how high the price went.
While you do make a valid point about Neverwinter not following the normal economy rules about unlimited resources, I think there is strong evidence, from the AD lockbox key price in the Auction House (lost time I checked it was 690000 buyout per bulk of 10, that's the equivalent of 613 AD/ZEN for the buyer and 552 AD/ZEN for the seller) that there IS Zen supply for values over 500 that it's currently not finding place in the normal AD/ZEN exchange and it has migrated to the Auction House (the "black market" of our case).
Also I am very doubful of the last part of your statement. If the AD/ZEN exchange was at 50000 (absurd number just to make a point), would you use your Zen to buy a purple companion from the store or use way less to upgrade several white companions to purple with the manuals? The same applies to mounts. And companions and mounts are a big part of what makes the Zen Store.
(Ok, maybe in your case you have already bought purple companions and mounts and it may not apply to you, but this would apply to whoever would have to make a choice about companions and mounts)
There is only one way to fix the current situation: it's to remove the price cap on the AD/ZEN exchange.
Price caps are only short-term measures to protect from sudden hyper-inflation (caused by unforseen sudden changes/distortions in the economy, very rare cases and not our case for sure.), as a structural measure they offer no protection against inflation and only cause shortages.
And don't take it from me, a lowly nobody with a degree in economics. Take it from the economists themselves, and what most of them think about forms of price control in general.
They already tried removing the cap in diablo 3's real money auction house and what happened was the gold sellers lowered their prices and every in-game currency lost a lot of value as a result.
Comments
As for who would be frustrated. If I was new to the game, I'd be frustrated and leave the game for multiple issues with the game. However I'm an older player and have managed to earn a decent amount by investing a lot of time, and maybe some has to do with a little bit of money invested but that probably didn't have that much of an impact, so I don't quite feel the need to leave.
For example they did the egg event to drain the backlog. As you can imagine, that still gave them more zen sales. That should show that they have interest in having a properly working exchange.
Actually, I'd think part of the fast 'clearing' of the backlog was people canning their buy orders, to buy eggs instead. As usual, the whales got fatter (by having more to spend, and thus get more chickens to pawn off). There might have been some Zen sales, but the backlog cleared too fast.
Yup. Case in point, pres wards vs 500AD/z cap.
Buy 2k zen, exchange on zax = 1mill AD
or
Buy 2k zen, buy 200 pres wards with zen, sell for ~8k AD per ward then take away 10% AH cut = 1.44mill AD.
Pretty easy to figure out why nobody wants to sell their zen to people through the zax, especially since the items that sell best(keys and pres wards, certain dyes) are only available through the zen store (well, you can get wards through invoking and lockboxes, but invoking will never give you enough to fill you needs and lockboxes = keys).
Simple fact is if you want AD and buy zen, sell zen store items in AH. If you want zen and only have AD...better get some cash flow or decide if you want to buy the items you were gonna get with zen off the AH for a 30-60% mark up instead.
I hate to break it to you but "free" economy implies you can price AD/Zen however the market likes. That can't be further from the truth when there is a cap.
Gotta agree with this.
What would be so bad if they added some AD only items to entice people to spend AD and reduce the backlog?
Right Cryptic still earns money whether AD is backlogged or not because paying customers still get their zen. That is the only point everyone should get in their heads. I wouldn't call backlogged broken. I think that is a poor adjective to use.
You know what would look better? More endgame PVE content, more PVP game modes, more classes. That is what makes a difference, not whether AD is backlogged or not.
They have no huge incentive to reduce backlog. People paying for zen are still getting their diamonds. In fact, they are getting the best rate 500ad/zen plus their zen is worth even more (when converted into preservation wards or keys) due to the fact that every zen item is now overpriced in the auction house due to its scarcity.
Cryptic wins. Paying customers win. Freeloaders....well some of them get zen eventually.
This person speaks the truth.
Yes and no. A F2P game is "healthy" as long as it mantains its appeal to "free" users and small spenders. As long as it has a huge population, even with a small % of spenders, people will still spend a lot. Once a game raises a "paywall" to most of its content, it's actively locking out free users, that might grow tired of not being able to get nice things only by playing (a lot). Once the population starts to drop, it's hard for a F2P game to recover, it will most probably die out slowly.
Ehhh. You bring a good valid point in a vaccum but you fail to relate it to this case so I'll say no to that.
In this case, it does not raise a paywall to most of its content. Items on the zen store are very negligible in terms of progression especially when you consider the auction house. Keys are wholly irrelevant for progression and content unlocking. Perfect enchants can still be bought at the auction house at a 1-2mil price hike (as of now)
The population slowly declining will be due to the lack of PVE endgame content, slow class rebalancing, no new PVP maps/game modes, normal decline in-between modules and class releases. It is ridiculous to attribute someone leaving because of AD backlogging.
The GF being ignored for a year is a good case, this one is just plain stupid.
THIS is the answer! Read it, understand it, and please stop posting "Zen-AD market is broken" posts! Some people apparently have no idea how to run a successful business. Sigh . . .
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Absolutely. I think a little bit of effort is all that's needed to keep a stable economy rather than risk having it escalate. But of course real end game content is what this game so desperately needs. The initial content had a lot more lifespan than any of the new content and it's vital that they change that. As for the exchange being broken, it still works, but the backlog is increasing with no signs of that changing which means that it could really be broken (used loosely) if you don't want to wait weeks or months for your zen. Some of the suggestions are ones that would improve the experience anyway such as reducing companion/mount upgrade costs which wouldn't take long. Sadly there's a lot of things that need attention and not everything can be done at once.
With the Zen to AD exchange rate capped @500 and Lesser Coalescent Wards selling for 800-850 AD per Zen invested in the Auction house there is no incentive for informed people to participate in the exchange. Really, the locked exchange rate is primarily exploiting the ignorance of folks who are not familiar with the Auction House market and exchanging ZEN for 60-70% of it's ultimate value. Anyone who actually buys at 500 is getting a great deal since they can flip their investment purchasing Lesser Coalescent Wards to sell in the AH and make 30-40% profit instantly which is probably a big chunk of your 3 million backlogged buy orders.
The fix is to either completely remove or raise the Zen-AD unit cap to at least 1000 AD, which likely won't go past the 800-850 that players currently make reselling LCW in the Auction house once the initial demand backlog is met.
I don't understand the notion that "Cryptic does not earn anything" if people buy Zen for AD, however... Zen only enters the economy if someone purchases it for real money in the first place. Zen is going to be consumed in the Zen Market on bags/bank space, BOE items that get used or go to the Auction House for AD, or sold to other players via the PAX. The PAX doesn't impact or compete with Cryptic's interests in any way and in fact clearly fulfills a demand from players who want to directly purchase AD in the game, perhaps without the risks of playing the AH market. Even if a long time player only buys Zen with AD and never spends a dime on the game themselves, the Zen they are buying for AD was still purchased from Cryptic for real money by someone, most likely a newer player looking to trade money for time spent grinding in the game for certain items or other commodities. It's really win-win for everyone involved.
???
Free economy based on supply and demand states nothing about caps on prices.
If it was a free economy we would be allowed to exchange it for more than 500 AD/ZEN. Like 670 or 700.
Price caps are only short-term measures to protect from sudden hyper-inflation (caused by unforseen sudden changes/distortions in the economy, very rare cases and not our case for sure.), as a structural measure they offer no protection against inflation and only cause shortages.
And don't take it from me, a lowly nobody with a degree in economics. Take it from the economists themselves, and what most of them think about forms of price control in general.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PriceControls.html
If you could replace Zen directly with AD (even if you needed to still pay a certain amount of Zen), the game would be shut down in a couple months, since the Invoke and Leadership Botters would reap the benefits instantly. The way it is now, they either WAIT, or they pay out of their rear on the Auctionhouse. Working as intended.
I'm not disagreeing with you but remember Neverwinter's economy doesn't completely follow a normal economy because resources aren't actually limited. We can both buy the same horse instead of only one of us getting it as it would be IRL. If the price cap was removed it won't necessarily change the supply of zen much. If there isn't anything worth buying with AD people still won't sell. I concede that it could open up supply as well. But there are a lot of people like me who don't really need so much AD so at this time I won't sell any zen no matter how high the price went.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
While you do make a valid point about Neverwinter not following the normal economy rules about unlimited resources, I think there is strong evidence, from the AD lockbox key price in the Auction House (lost time I checked it was 690000 buyout per bulk of 10, that's the equivalent of 613 AD/ZEN for the buyer and 552 AD/ZEN for the seller) that there IS Zen supply for values over 500 that it's currently not finding place in the normal AD/ZEN exchange and it has migrated to the Auction House (the "black market" of our case).
Also I am very doubful of the last part of your statement. If the AD/ZEN exchange was at 50000 (absurd number just to make a point), would you use your Zen to buy a purple companion from the store or use way less to upgrade several white companions to purple with the manuals? The same applies to mounts. And companions and mounts are a big part of what makes the Zen Store.
(Ok, maybe in your case you have already bought purple companions and mounts and it may not apply to you, but this would apply to whoever would have to make a choice about companions and mounts)
They already tried removing the cap in diablo 3's real money auction house and what happened was the gold sellers lowered their prices and every in-game currency lost a lot of value as a result.
Don't make the same mistake twice.