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The PvE clerics's Lament - (long time cleric losing steam)
venerable4bede
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 21 Arc User
Hi all,
I've been playing a good long time now as a DC. Since maybe a month after it went live. I don't enjoy PvP (by personal preference, not to mention always quickly losing when I did test the waters). I'm not horribly incompetent AFAIK. I always play legit. I've got a 18k GS cleric, good gear, good power, and a good guild, but I've really run out of steam (interest) here. I don't want to start an argument, just share why I am no longer finding it rewarding to play my character. Since I really only play DC's, this is really a problem with my desire to play Neverwinter overall. There's just nothing to motivate me to continue building my DC character, and I'm not interested in starting fresh on new classes and having to go through the same content again to get all my boons, etc. Yes, I enjoy partying with legit players and my guild on the occasional dungeon but its just kind of the same-old, same-old.
Here are the problems as I see it:
1) Stuff is time consuming when playing solo. In max'd black ice gear, nearly 8k power and so on it shouldn't take so darn long. Yes, this is because I play a party support character. In my mind this is what a DC was supposed to be, and I know if I re-did myself to be more DPS, use Vorpal, get more crit, more arpen, etc. I could get through it faster, but even with the high-tier black ice stuff empowered to T3 and all rank 9's it just takes too freakin long to run solo through icewind dale. It doesn't help that all the AoE powers affect only like 5 enemies, either. Up until Sharandar I was willing to invest the time to play 3 chars (2 DC and 1 GF) daily and it was not that horrible. I've had to give that up. Just doing IWD dailies kills my patience for gaming in one sitting, and even that is only useful for getting more black ice that I really don't need. After getting T3 of Icecrafting a week ago, I haven't once run IWD dailies either.
2) Gear. Ugh. How dumb is it that I have to put on my black ice gear to get in Kessell's and then immediately put back on my T1 High Prophet debuff armor as soon as I am in there to be useful. There is absolutely no reason why a party would want a support DC wearing black ice stuff. Am I going to be wearing my T1 armor until the end of time? The magic 8-ball points to yes. Okay, over time I've retooled myself and such but I just cant see spending the weeks and months necessary to crank out more enchantments to get just a few measly hundred more power or crit or whatever. It just doesn't affect my viability in any significant way, and is therefore not rewarding. The impact of gear versus skill just isn't there. I could probably do just as well at 14k GS as I do at 18k GS, mainly because I'm superfluous. In fact lower GS could even be easier because I am so useless I generate no threat. I could just sit in the corner and throw smites at whatever monster was getting attacked by a DPS character and they wouldn't even notice me. As long as I dont daydream in a killer monster AOE I'll be fine.
3) Usefulness in PvE in high GS parties. Even as a maxed-out debuff cleric (High Prophet/Perfect Terror/debuff skill loadout) with good power and astral shields, I'm still not necessary. I'm not even sure that debuffing bosses is really even saving that much time compared to how much faster my party could burn a boss by replacing me with a TR or something. High GS players just don't need a DC, they can lifesteal themselves out of almost any problem they get themselves into. I feel like when I do a run, its just a pity-invite, they could do it faster without me.
4) No hard PvE dungeons. I'm really kind of disappointed that there wasn't a really challenging dungeon in IWD that required good ice gear and rewarded one for using it. I'm tired of running the same dungeons over and over again. After you have without cheating beaten Valindra's Tower and killed the Dracolich a few dozen times, what else is there to do?? Now if there were some game mechanic or boss in some high-end dungeon that actually really benefited from having a cleric around, maybe I'd have something to. But right now, my PvE choices are grinding areas like IWD for black ice I dont need, or running dungeons to add on to my ridiculous Rough AD backlog that I can't use.
So what does a PvP-hating DC have to do these days that is rewarding? I just can't see it. And the sad thing is, I just dont see anything changing anytime soon in the game that will change any of the above.
I'm honestly asking though - not just complaining and threatening to rage quit or whatever, how do you folks keep yourself amused and engaged playing DC's outside of PvP or helping low-level pugs or something? Make runs naked? Sure that'd be harder but its still the same dungeons and mechanics I've already learned (I suggest not making naked runs of PK unless you want to be the surgeon's "special friend" and "cabin boy" BTW)
Thanks for listening and any suggestions you might offer
Chert Yeastbottom - "Drink Yeastbottom brand lager, for the cleaner fresher heals"
I've been playing a good long time now as a DC. Since maybe a month after it went live. I don't enjoy PvP (by personal preference, not to mention always quickly losing when I did test the waters). I'm not horribly incompetent AFAIK. I always play legit. I've got a 18k GS cleric, good gear, good power, and a good guild, but I've really run out of steam (interest) here. I don't want to start an argument, just share why I am no longer finding it rewarding to play my character. Since I really only play DC's, this is really a problem with my desire to play Neverwinter overall. There's just nothing to motivate me to continue building my DC character, and I'm not interested in starting fresh on new classes and having to go through the same content again to get all my boons, etc. Yes, I enjoy partying with legit players and my guild on the occasional dungeon but its just kind of the same-old, same-old.
Here are the problems as I see it:
1) Stuff is time consuming when playing solo. In max'd black ice gear, nearly 8k power and so on it shouldn't take so darn long. Yes, this is because I play a party support character. In my mind this is what a DC was supposed to be, and I know if I re-did myself to be more DPS, use Vorpal, get more crit, more arpen, etc. I could get through it faster, but even with the high-tier black ice stuff empowered to T3 and all rank 9's it just takes too freakin long to run solo through icewind dale. It doesn't help that all the AoE powers affect only like 5 enemies, either. Up until Sharandar I was willing to invest the time to play 3 chars (2 DC and 1 GF) daily and it was not that horrible. I've had to give that up. Just doing IWD dailies kills my patience for gaming in one sitting, and even that is only useful for getting more black ice that I really don't need. After getting T3 of Icecrafting a week ago, I haven't once run IWD dailies either.
2) Gear. Ugh. How dumb is it that I have to put on my black ice gear to get in Kessell's and then immediately put back on my T1 High Prophet debuff armor as soon as I am in there to be useful. There is absolutely no reason why a party would want a support DC wearing black ice stuff. Am I going to be wearing my T1 armor until the end of time? The magic 8-ball points to yes. Okay, over time I've retooled myself and such but I just cant see spending the weeks and months necessary to crank out more enchantments to get just a few measly hundred more power or crit or whatever. It just doesn't affect my viability in any significant way, and is therefore not rewarding. The impact of gear versus skill just isn't there. I could probably do just as well at 14k GS as I do at 18k GS, mainly because I'm superfluous. In fact lower GS could even be easier because I am so useless I generate no threat. I could just sit in the corner and throw smites at whatever monster was getting attacked by a DPS character and they wouldn't even notice me. As long as I dont daydream in a killer monster AOE I'll be fine.
3) Usefulness in PvE in high GS parties. Even as a maxed-out debuff cleric (High Prophet/Perfect Terror/debuff skill loadout) with good power and astral shields, I'm still not necessary. I'm not even sure that debuffing bosses is really even saving that much time compared to how much faster my party could burn a boss by replacing me with a TR or something. High GS players just don't need a DC, they can lifesteal themselves out of almost any problem they get themselves into. I feel like when I do a run, its just a pity-invite, they could do it faster without me.
4) No hard PvE dungeons. I'm really kind of disappointed that there wasn't a really challenging dungeon in IWD that required good ice gear and rewarded one for using it. I'm tired of running the same dungeons over and over again. After you have without cheating beaten Valindra's Tower and killed the Dracolich a few dozen times, what else is there to do?? Now if there were some game mechanic or boss in some high-end dungeon that actually really benefited from having a cleric around, maybe I'd have something to. But right now, my PvE choices are grinding areas like IWD for black ice I dont need, or running dungeons to add on to my ridiculous Rough AD backlog that I can't use.
So what does a PvP-hating DC have to do these days that is rewarding? I just can't see it. And the sad thing is, I just dont see anything changing anytime soon in the game that will change any of the above.
I'm honestly asking though - not just complaining and threatening to rage quit or whatever, how do you folks keep yourself amused and engaged playing DC's outside of PvP or helping low-level pugs or something? Make runs naked? Sure that'd be harder but its still the same dungeons and mechanics I've already learned (I suggest not making naked runs of PK unless you want to be the surgeon's "special friend" and "cabin boy" BTW)
Thanks for listening and any suggestions you might offer
Chert Yeastbottom - "Drink Yeastbottom brand lager, for the cleaner fresher heals"
Post edited by venerable4bede on
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But i do heard people've been saying that clerics arent really needed in end-game party where they can gain back more thru life-steal efficiency and prones. That's okay i guess, since the direction they're heading is for no class to be needed whatsoever. Problem is, for clerics that are lacking in damage area compared to other class.. it really makes us useless, they dont really need healing anymore, while our debuffing is not so great to actually replace other damage dealing class (that can also debuff) either..
Good thing is, i heard there are going to be many tone-downs implemented on CWs viability to control for PvE.. I guess we'll have to see later when it's actually implemented huh?
Anyway, I feel your pain, my DC had a lot more GS but fortunately I noticed the same problem that you mentioned months ago, my solution was to start playing a GWF, meanwhile, I'm still waiting until they buff the class but I've already been waiting for 6 months... the DC needs a huge rework.
+1
runs would be funny again for dc. And we could show our skill. Not just proc machines.
And Life Steal and Regeneration should be gone or very, very rare.
But I keep myself amused because I have not even started Sharandar yet, or even killed Velindra. The Dailies in Module 2 take up most of my time. I do play PvP as well and I'm saving enough Glory so I can afford a complete set of Profound gear before I buy any of it. Just doing Professions with 12 characters takes an hour, three times a day, but I only adventure with my new Main character..
But I have noticed that in level 60 Dungeons, my team rarely actually needs my healing. I always finish my rotation with a Sunburst to top them up, and use Soothing Light for emergency point healing, but a blue Astral Shield is really not needed most of the time, so I usually use Divine Glow and Daunting Light. I have a lot of Power, Crit and ArPen as well.
~
And while agree that lifesteal is out of hand, I do think that we'll be called on to heal a lot more with the current mod4 changes. CWs will be doing less damage so healing themselves for less. For a GWF to get the same level of damage resistance that unstoppable currently gives they're going to need Astral Shield. (I don't know about HR but our guild doesn't have that many of them that run dungeons at the moment anyway.)
I feel your pain about soloing IWD. That's why Gloria was willing to group up with you and others for running quests, even if it meant getting flagged for PVP. She does have crit and armor pen, btw so even if you stacked that it only helps so much. She can clear the mobs solo but eats a ton of damage in the process. Pity we're the healer class that can't actually heal themselves.
As for the gear, it's just bad. This was my biggest fear going into Mod3, more grind for no decent group content and no decent new items. Even if the sets were worth using, there isn't any new more difficult content worth using them in.
IF your just a PVE type player, I can see where you are a little antsy for some new real content, I grew bored of the stupid encounters in one day and now wish they would go away, its not a proper DD.
They shouldve released a real DD that drops MH and Gloves from the chests, and make it interesting at the same time!
I decided to take a look on the new warlock and hope to find some motivation there (which doesnt help you bcause you dont want to run through the whole game again).
So i would say take a break from the game till you feel the urge to come back!
There are still IWD mobs running around that (for some reason) have ridiculously higher HP/damage than they should normally have, but one learns to simply avoid those.
I wouldn't use HP for trash mobs and short fights.
There is too much focus on cleric debuffing these days, which is odd because our buffing abilities are far superior to our debuff abilities.
In any case, high GS people need no one in particular. High GS/skilled dpsers, especially.
This will likely change in mod 4, what with all the nerfs.
I agree with part of what you are trying to say. Currently, a skilled CW in rank 6/7's and Greater Vorpal can more or less solo Epic Mad Dragon, killing off everything except the last boss in about a minute. Consider then the potential of BiS GWFs/CWs. So many striker classes/builds are just too powerful in PvE atm, and not being primary strikers ourselves our options are limited. For these classes/builds teammates are really more like convenient distractions.
Mod 4 seems to be an attempt to rectify this. We'll just have to wait and see if it succeeds, or test mod 4 in preview.
IMO, any 18k gs sent cleric can stall but cannot kill 9k gs gwf unless he is really squishy. What we usually said is, a good 9k gwf can steamroll the opposite team with average 12k gs, while the poor cleric have no chance to fight back except being a meat shield and waste gwf's time on hitting the cleric.
Skill does matter a bit in this 1v1 or 1v2 case, just time your dodge, immune when taking encounters and daily, pull a nice distance from gwf, replenish your hp with pots, artifacts and encounters, and repeat the whole chain. We cleric should have no problem facing any good gwf unless he is very experienced and extremely well-geared, which means have at least 8k gs higher than you.
Poor cleric can duel equal gs gwf, normal cleric can stall a higher gs gwf, and any experienced cleric can irritate any near BIS or BIS gwf till they give up and go to other node or call more allies to kill you. This is fact.
Everything about a GWF is about to change though, I mean everything, they may be a useless node holding class soon.. It will be HRs and CWs all over the place, with double stacking of Icy Terrain and Thornward to hold a node instead. GWF wont be able to survive long enough to do anything about it.. I think you will see a sudden and rapid decrease in thier #s and a increase in the other two classes. Frankly, the over the top nerfs to that class will just hurt pvp not help it, there will be no counter to HRs at all. As a DC I would much rather jump around a node against a GWF then deal with a HR or CW any day.
Welcome to Mod 4 ..
I'm not planning on quitting but probably just play less for a while. I do have the best guild in the game of course, but a little bit larcenous at times
An interesting comment. Could you elaborate a little?
Cheers!
Unlike debuffing, buffing does not require us to keep attacking bosses/mobs to re-apply debuffs. Buffs are less susceptible to RNG than debuffs - they are not affected by 5 target cap rule that applies to almost all our powers. Buffs generally last longer, are more reliable, and usually have other useful effects associated with them. Finally, other classes have powerful debuffs too. Wizards have Ray of Enfeeblement (may change in the next patch), Rangers have Commanding Shot, Rogues have Wicked Reminder, and everyone has access to GPF/Terror. This means it is possible for a group to finish a dungeon run even without cleric debuffs - but a cleric who can't use buffs properly is basically dead weight.
Any player who aspires to become a better DC should first know the value of using powers like Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor/Divine mode Divine Glow/mitigation buffs. Buffing takes priority. While being a good debuffer does take skill and can make you a very valuable asset in high end groups, it is not, in my eyes, a "baseline" cleric ability. It is more like a specialization - something you learn as you get better at what you do. There is no excuse for a cleric who, at the very least, cannot even use Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor and mitigation buffs properly.
Based on my experience there are currently a lot of clerics running around focusing too much on trying to improve their debuff skills and failing at something all good clerics should be able to do. This may have something to do with all the "need debuffer cleric!" hype in PE.
Sorry, what is "RNG"?
What would be the best buffs, in your opinion? And the Feats for them?
My Tiefling AC is specced for party play and healing. She uses tend to use Exaltation, Astral Seal/Forgemaster's Flame and Sunburst, with Blessings of Battle and Sacred Flame with Hallowed Ground.
Her Feats are Deepstone Blessing, Prestigious Exaltation, Linked Spirit, Invigorated Healing and Moon Touched, with 3 ranks each in Rising Hope and Deperate Renewal. She used to not have Linked Spirit and had 5 Ranks in Rising Hope and Battle Fervour until I respeced to see if it would help. She has Grim Faithful armour.
My Dwarven DO is speced much more for battle, damage, tankiness, debuffing and Divine Power regeneration and is far more successful. He uses blue Divine Glow close up to buff himself, Daunting Light (with Nimbus of Light) and Sunburst, Brand of the Sun and Lance of Faith and Hallowed Ground or Hammer of Fate. He has Grand Templar Armour and Ancient Priest's Symbol and Icon. He is basically specced for Solo play, but in parties and PvP, he can stay alive long enough to be helpful and uses blue Astral Shield if needed.
Cheers
Just be careful with applauding these changes, some of which are drastic. DCs may go from being there just in case to being overcome with the healing needs of the party. As it is we can only do so much if things do go pear-shaped.
Well, between useless and overwhelmed, I'd choose the second one every time.
Asked to come along for a proc of an old armor set. That's what we are now. What a sad fate for a class like the cleric.