There is fine line between OP and UP , when you nerf so hard, it destroys the class.. hard to see TRs and HRs coming on here and saying the nerfs were justifiably. Smacks of .. good make one of the primary competitive classes weak, more node holding for ours.
Again.. not the biggest skin off my back, Im not going to buck the system, Ill just roll another class and play it. I just cant seem to find valid argument points for such harsh level of roll backs of function. In the end they will achieve class balance by making every class but the newest one lousy to play, Im here for another year, dont mind the game, will just keep rolling stuff.
Basically you can go dps and die, or not die and have no dps... whoopie dooppie dooo.. no thanks.
Haha. Well sorry to disappoint but I am not a TR (and I only just got to lvl 60 as an HR). I am also not saying GWFs needed a nerf because I feel something else should be on top. The fact that it is everyone's first reaction is a bit appauling. GWFs needed a decrease in power because it was needed. Not because you were on top. So did CWs for that matter. Which was why they developers are doing just that. Was it extreme? Probably. But you cannot deny that a change was necessary.
That last bit you said "Basically you can go dps and die, or not die and have no dps... whoopee doooppie doo.. no thanks." That is the choice every one makes when picking a class. You pick a CW, HR or TR and you do amazing control/ dps but you have low defense. You need to play smarter to earn your kills. Or you can play a DC or GF. Your dps is very low but you (should) be able to survive longer under larger stress due to survival tools. GWF is the only class that can do it all. High DPS and very high survivability.
Coming out of open beta, they were middle of the pack dps and moderately high survivability. They were the least played class because they didn't have a defined role. Why bring a GWF in a group when you can just add another dps class or another DC. Then to add insult to injury, they couldn't tank as well as a GF so that was out. So the developers buffed them. Now they could do everything and do it better than just about everyone. Is that really fun? Is that really an ideal and balanced system? No.
For ToD, the developers are giving the GWFs a choice. Either dps and have the same drawbacks as everyone else. (Actually they will have better defense than most dps classes) or sacrifice some dps and tank. (They will have much better dps than a GF and have defenses that are as good as them as well.) Now you have to choose a defined role. If every other class can do it and survive. So can the GWF.
well, I said the destroyer will be a glasscannon in module 4 (now is ok). but in the next module, or you are "cannon" - glass - or "non-cannon".
The question is not to be the "top dps class." My argument is also valid for the rogue. right now the "melee dps" is the most exposed. and he is the most exposed becouse he has the best resources utilities? no, because of "superdamage". "super" in comparison to what?
the parameter that we are currently "shard of 3.5 seconds prone".
one cw / gwf, in high gear, exploding the universe is result of dungeons "blue gear". a "3.5 sec prone cw" is something that is independent of the value of your gear.
4 cw = infinity prone (14sec condown). if the time has increased, then 5 cw solve this problem(and THAT is the infinite cicle). by the whay, anny other defensive combination under the gear it is, can overcome this. cw should be "class to be protected."
Now to the point: assuming a "mixed party" if you takes a gwf (module 4) you do not expect anything from him, and should even protect him.. what he has is damage. this compensates for the damage that the cw puts on the table? And Tell passing; that will be the end of everything, the gwf be doing more damage than the cw?
obviously you can argue "nothing is definitive"; what we have is a projection and the projection is absurd. anyway, it is impossible to argue that these changes are "a synergy / balance desire" and not a desperate response to angry players.
ps: when we asked one projection - module 3 feedback - the dev told us that we should not look for the cw why the class was out of line. then if 3.5 seconds is the new line, I hope my ibs "one hit ko." gwf just have dps now. no stealth, no dodge, no broken iv, no super control. JUST DPS.
ps2:I need to type my message in "google translator" and then fix the google translator. noooooooooo idea how it should be badly written.
Is the GWF viable defensively without the damage reduction from Unstoppable? If not, and Unstoppable only regains its defensive functionality with the Sentinel Capstone Feat, how are leveling GWFs to survive through normal progression without the KEY feature of the class defining mechanic? Potion Spam?
I kind of feel like the whole of class balance is being leveraged against fully leveled and geared endgame characters only. New and mid-progression players will either be confused at why they've suddenly all turned into glass, cannon spec'd or no, or have a misleading impression of the class' role, given the lack of innate survivability without the capstone feat.
If the class is going to be reliant on Sprint for survival, I hope they also plan to either increase stamina regen or decrease stamina usage.
^^
You've really hit this right on the head. I remember leveling with the 25-50% and at some points I was still spamming potions like mad.
It seems like all of these balancing acts are being done based upon endgame GWF PvP. Unstoppable was perfectly fine for PvE, at any level, so was Sprint for that matter.
Making these changes work will be a matter of getting Sprint right. For the record, I do like what the changes say, they want to give the class more opportunities for proactive skill and less reliance on the passive-like Unstoppable. At some point, they made stamina drain much quicker to prevent sprinterupts and twitch-shifting, which was fine, but if we're going to rely on Sprint now we need to it to be more precise like it used to be.
Even with 5/5 in the Sprint heroic feat, some stamina gain from boons and artifacts, I still can only twitch-sprint 5ish times. That's just not going to cut it. A normal, average sprint drains about a third of our bar if not more... Its just not enough considering its not even a true immunity. Not to mention our cutbacks on gap-closers will require more sprinting for offensive purpose leaving us vulnerable for defensive situations.
Sprint is the key equalizer in the big-time Unstoppable nerf and I'm just not satisfied with where its at right now.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Here we go again . I don't even look forward to new mods now , all it means is gwf is going to take another hammering . You take deep gash damage and student of the sword then compensate for it with 25% more damage w/ take down and 50% reduction in cooldown , then come mod4 for you reduce its damage 30% . I got to get 20 stacks in to get the destroyer perk but now you want to reduce unstoppable to 10% vs 50% , Useless. A high end gwf sentinel has a defence soaking maybe 42% + 50% from unstoppable but the engine cap is 80% right ? only the destroyer and instigator is taking the beating . Man I don't understand it , do you devs log on on a Sunday with CW's and HR's and lose at PvP then go to work on a Monday and look for ways to %^&$ the GWF ? Is it that or do you want to sell character slots and retraining tokens every new mod ?For gods sake this game has been out a year are you telling me every couple of months you've got to bring the gwf to heel ? So what your going to throw the dog a bone and give us DR and CC resist while we are running away from the HR's and CW's hitting us from across the screen ? This is crazy , just do all the nerfing you want to do to the class at one time so we can decide to either abandon it or work around it . I don't play the "op" sentinel build everyone seems so terrified of PvP , I play an IV Destroyer who Pvps secondary to PvE . That said I do ok but the TR that attacks me when Im engaged with a GF utterly destroys me ( cause he's playing his class) , The TR that tries to fight me head on dies almost immediately , is that the gwf's fault ? should the GWF suffer because someone cries about their TR not being able to tank a gwf ? So a HR take's half my hp before Im able to engage it with sprint and ThRu is that my fault if he does switch to a melee weapon ? should the HR be able to go straight up w/ a GWF too ? A GWF is a toe to toe brawler , anyone who tries to go toe to toe with one should fall . We have one ranged attack that is an encounter power with a 16s cooldown , TR , HR , CW all have at will ranged attacks for a reason . You guys going to give us an at will ranged attack too ? It seems apparent that what you want is a gwf that runs in hitting the target with his purse after a CW or HR CC's it , then runs away before the targets can attack him . If it sounds like Im pissed off its because I am , I've devoted a lot of time and money into the game . I drink coffee and play Neverwinter before work , I don't like logging on and finding my damage has been reduced 30% and DR 40% because other people can't play their classes in PvP .
I think it's great GF is finally been given some attention , I would suggest giving them more AoE damage and keeping their single target damage the same so the pvpers don't cry . CW's get no sympathy from me . You want to know what a true tank is ? , its a CW with a LS of 1700 that can do 20k+ in damage against a mob of 15 held in singularity . I've watched a CW guildie crit for 176k with a magic missle because he can stand back from the boss and build dot while the GWF or GF engages it..and you think unstoppable is too much . Mod3 cut most GWF's damage by 25% and its still not enough , now you want us to stay out of melee and let those with dodge tank bosses..I give up .
GWFs and CWs got changed to make space for GF's. High level PvE content will require a GF or DC now and rightfully so to manage mobs and threat.
However, threat is still a non-issue in PVP which turns these changes into PVP nerf. THAT is the core of the problem that they need to tackle. They've tried to get around it with a million changes to Mark, but threat needs to have some function to it in order for these changes to make sense.
I said it before, and will always say it. Life steal in the game is a broken mechanic, and is what makes the GWF seem to tanky now in PvE, and OP. It broke PWE's mother game (pwi) when they introduced the assassins blood paint giving DPS classes 10% heals per hit damage. ruined group dynamics, and turned leather wearing squishies into better tanks than the barbarians...or worse, sub par geared players into soloing machines.
If they took away LS, The class would have been perfectly balanced for PvE (fixed roar for PvP)... So now what do you have? spec for a sentinel, sacrifice damage to be tanky (alot of damage)..... or spec for a SM, be forced to sacrifice a lot of damage, just to survive drop power, stack LS, drop power boons/feats use healing ones.
That may not be too obvious for 18kGS ++ characters at the moment, but there is no content for that level of gear, and to be honest, with that kind of gear score you could let a 3 year old spec the char and still do fine in t2 content.
^^
You've really hit this right on the head. I remember leveling with the 25-50% and at some points I was still spamming potions like mad.
It seems like all of these balancing acts are being done based upon endgame GWF PvP. Unstoppable was perfectly fine for PvE, at any level, so was Sprint for that matter.
Making these changes work will be a matter of getting Sprint right. For the record, I do like what the changes say, they want to give the class more opportunities for proactive skill and less reliance on the passive-like Unstoppable. At some point, they made stamina drain much quicker to prevent sprinterupts and twitch-shifting, which was fine, but if we're going to rely on Sprint now we need to it to be more precise like it used to be.
Even with 5/5 in the Sprint heroic feat, some stamina gain from boons and artifacts, I still can only twitch-sprint 5ish times. That's just not going to cut it. A normal, average sprint drains about a third of our bar if not more... Its just not enough considering its not even a true immunity. Not to mention our cutbacks on gap-closers will require more sprinting for offensive purpose leaving us vulnerable for defensive situations.
Sprint is the key equalizer in the big-time Unstoppable nerf and I'm just not satisfied with where its at right now.
I think one big mistake the devs do is to make changes to one class to bring it "in line with other classes". But the point is, the gameplay is different. A GWF is a melee class with no stealth or real ranged attacks, or damage-negation moves. Their gameplay mechanic was to close gaps with sprint and rely on Unstoppable, timing it correctly in PvP and PvE, to create a window of opportunity to pressure the opponent and recover/ tank. The enemy needed to concentrate on damage when the GWF was out of Unstoppable and avoid/ defend while the GWF was big and red.
Determination gain needed a fix to make it the same on any build (% of total HP lost instead of x amount of HP to do not favor monster-HP tanks) and make unstoppable not spammable.
Instead they changed the class and tried to make it kind of a "TR with a big weapon and no stealth". Except for the fact that the new sprint does not negate damage and ITC is way better than a 10-20% reduction Unstoppable...
They also got rid of our prones, nerfed the hell out of Takedown and Roar (on top of the fixes Roar needed, but the rooting effect was never an issue...), and made the IV path useless. Then they buffed flourish (needed), but with all the other nerfs put together what they left was a swordmaster path with a very slow and easily dodgeable/negated move (flourish) which is the only way to land another slow and easily dodgeable move (takedown) which could be barely enough to land another slow and very easily dodged move (IBS).
Basically the old GWF that could be kited by CWs/ TRs, plus more nerfs to make it harder for it to survive and land a hit.
It will be funny to see how a GWF will be able to handle the current HRs, perma TRs and even CWs.
Sprint can either be used to close the gap or defend. One or the other. You use it to close the gap, then the enemy teleports/ dodges and attacks. You then go Unstoppable, which is quite weak unless you are a sentinel. So you already took damage while sprinting and you keep taking damage when in unstoppable. Then you try to land your "stuns" and pray the enemy is cced for long enough to land IBS or else you're gonna deal chip damage. Expecially on CWs/ HRs/ TRs with G/Pbarkshield.
Just hope they realize that nerfing the ability to land the hits AND the survivability altogether, so deeply, is a dangerous move. Expecially when you have such powerful HRs and such permastealth TRs still making the most difference in PvP domination with their ability to troll points for long periods of time against many enemies.
GWFs and CWs got changed to make space for GF's. High level PvE content will require a GF or DC now and rightfully so to manage mobs and threat.
However, threat is still a non-issue in PVP which turns these changes into PVP nerf. THAT is the core of the problem that they need to tackle. They've tried to get around it with a million changes to Mark, but threat needs to have some function to it in order for these changes to make sense.
PvE can be tweaked with dungeon/ mob design changes. Ripping the gameplay mechanincs of a class to shreds and try to transform it in something else, on the other hand, is another thing. It's a very dangerous move and affects both PvP and PvE.
GWFs are being redesigned from the ground up. And despite what the whining bunch says, they are not the current PvP kings. HRs and TRs are still way ahead.
Just hope after these nerfs they'll be done with us.
Well GWF's were orginaly not wanted and mostly cannon fodder anyway. So we will just be back to where we started at.
I honestly don't think it will be that bad at all. We still have higher DPS than TR/GF/DC, HRs new Range path may have more DPS, and/or CWs may have more AoE (though we always outshine them on single target such as bosses) so we'll still be needed/wanted. It will require more practice/skill to survive for Destroyer's, but it certainly won't be as bad as your making it out to be...
I've been on the test shard a lot testing the changes.
I think a point that needs to be made here is that is that alot of the current PVE GWF spec IS almost entirely glass cannon. High power/crit and life steal and leaning on unstoppable like a crutch. Mod4 is going to reward SOME defense boosting in the form of defense/deflection/regen boosting even for destroyers for survivability.
The way dungeon dynamics currently work is CW>GWF>HR/DC>GF/TR
How it should work is DC/GF should ALWAYS make your dungeon runs easier, these are support classes and the majority of players are going to chose DPS classes. HR/GWF should be aoe damage (HR range, slight party buffs, better damage across a widespread area. GWF possible main tank, offtank, better survivability, heavy damage on closely packed mobs). CW should be CONTROL with moderate damge. TR/warlock single target damage that far outshines the other classes.
Anyway, my thoughts on the matter, don't know if mod 4 is going to bring true class balance for PVE(kinda doubt it).
I play TR/CW/GWF. This is based entirely on the fact that I like stealthy/mobile classes first and foremost/magic and wizardry second/something with a big f'ing sword third(love Berserk). Oh and I dislike HRs intensely, for no justifiable reason. If we see them as the top PVP and PVE class in mod 4 I'm gonna poo myself, and then probably quit the game.
Oh and one more thing. Having watched rogue get nerf after nerf I am having mixed feelings about what GWFs(and my own GWF) are going to go through with the upcoming changes. On the one hand i'm feeling fairly sympathetic. On the other hand i'm also feeling that GWF and CW are getting what's coming to them. Note that I play these classes alot too. If you want to complain about nerfs, try getting your main source of PVE damage reduced by 60-80%(a 8k TR after launch did far more damage with flurry than a 17k TR does with it now), and many of your encounters being nerfed or made non-viable by subsequent power creep of new gear. Add to that your forced into a very specific build/playstyle/skillset to remain competitive in pvp.
What i'm getting at is this - what's coming for GWF is pretty bad, but it could be oh so much worse.
I think a point that needs to be made here is that is that alot of the current PVE GWF spec IS almost entirely glass cannon. High power/crit and life steal and leaning on unstoppable like a crutch. Mod4 is going to reward SOME defense boosting in the form of defense/deflection/regen boosting even for destroyers for survivability.
The way dungeon dynamics currently work is CW>GWF>HR/DC>GF/TR
How it should work is DC/GF should ALWAYS make your dungeon runs easier, these are support classes and the majority of players are going to chose DPS classes. HR/GWF should be aoe damage (HR range, slight party buffs, better damage across a widespread area. GWF possible main tank, offtank, better survivability, heavy damage on closely packed mobs). CW should be CONTROL with moderate damge. TR/warlock single target damage that far outshines the other classes.
Anyway, my thoughts on the matter, don't know if mod 4 is going to bring true class balance for PVE(kinda doubt it).
I play TR/CW/GWF. This is based entirely on the fact that I like stealthy/mobile classes first and foremost/magic and wizardry second/something with a big f'ing sword third(love Berserk). Oh and I dislike HRs intensely, for no justifiable reason. If we see them as the top PVP and PVE class in mod 4 I'm gonna poo myself, and then probably quit the game.
The group dynamics are skewed because we outgear all of the current content. YOU don't see 11k/12k GWF "glass cannons" running in t2 dungeons, they wouldn't even survive the trash mobs. much less the bosses. Most GFW don't even start going glass until they have full AoW gear...You know, the gear dropped in T2? so yea....
I am so sick of hearing how OP we are in PvE- simple fact is when you out gear the content, DPS/H don't need heals and or tank-age...
Wish some of you people would take on some dungeons where the highest GSed GWF/CW is 11k, but alas ya'll won't, when you roll an alt, i'm sure its on the guilds coattails to gear it up too.
The group dynamics are skewed because we outgear all of the current content. YOU don't see 11k/12k GWF "glass cannons" running in t2 dungeons, they wouldn't even survive the trash mobs. much less the bosses. Most GFW don't even start going glass until they have full AoW gear...You know, the gear dropped in T2? so yea....
I am so sick of hearing how OP we are in PvE- simple fact is when you out gear the content, DPS/H don't need heals and or tank-age...
Wish some of you people would take on some dungeons where the highest GSed GWF/CW is 11k, but alas ya'll won't, when you roll an alt, i'm sure its on the guilds coattails to gear it up too.
100% correct. I feel like a hero for having achieved my t2 in beta/módule1 (no super exploit guild)... and now I have to read "gwf is the easy mode".
The sad thing that most of the changes are pvp oriented.
Irony is, with mod3 there were already changes but they werent very well planed. Instead of keeping the amazing debuffs student of the sword gave and moving deep gash just deeper into destroyer tree, they twisted all things around, bugging feats again and making gwf destroyers a super-burst-dmg class in pvp. But with lower dps in pve.
Sometimes I just cant understand what the devs are thinking with those changes :-(
Nerf: In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.
If you can't/won't realize that, no skin off my back bud... It's all good in the hood!
Also, special note, a giant two-hand sword should do more damage then a single handed blade. Hence the different styles of fighting with a Longsword versus a Scottish Claymore, or a Katana versus a No-Dachi. Some cause more mayhem then others, it's obvious. At least to me...
You are correct! However the same could be said for the sword and shield Fighter having less survivability and damage mitigation then the 2 handed Sword wielding fighter. Its funny the GWF complains about doing less damage using the GF paragon, yet you hear no complaints about being a better tank with a 2 handed weapon then the Paragons original class with a Sword and Shield.
Its funny the GWF complains about doing less damage using the GF paragon....
You must have the wrong GWF here buddy... I honestly cannot remember a post where I directly complained about anything. Am I happy with every change? Nope. Though at worst I'd say, "Well I think XYZ might be rough, but like always I'll adapt and keep playing!".
Now, if we want to mention someone who likes to complain, might I suggest using a mirror?
Either way... Have a wonderful day, and happy gaming!
You are correct! However the same could be said for the sword and shield Fighter having less survivability and damage mitigation then the 2 handed Sword wielding fighter. Its funny the GWF complains about doing less damage using the GF paragon, yet you hear no complaints about being a better tank with a 2 handed weapon then the Paragons original class with a Sword and Shield.
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.
Poor game mechanics makes GWFs better tanks. Lifesteall being the main culprit. Without LS a paingiver GWF would suck as a tank, I would know I have the bare minimum, and I'm the last tank GWF you'd want in your group.
Skills were right on par for the class already. Destroyers = lack of survival - The more survival you aimed for, the more of a wet noodle you start to get. Problem was that one game flaw made the class work either way.
Kloat in the thread above you are complaining that when choosing the IV path your GWF should do far more damage then the GF with a Sword and Shield! If that's the case then you should way less DR and survivability not having a shield also...
You can't have it all man! I have no problem with a 2 handed weapon doing more damage in the IV path, but you better be way more squishy too because of the same underlying reason.
I am so sick of hearing how OP we are in PvE- simple fact is when you out gear the content, DPS/H don't need heals and or tank-age...
This is the truth, whether you want to admit it or not.
I have both a GF and GWF at an equal gear level, in fact my GF has higher levelled artifacts and enchantments, and the truth is my GF is outperformed by my GWF in every way. You cannot deny that CWs and GWFs outperform every other class at equal gear levels. Whether it is 10k in your first T1 or 15k+ in VT/MC/CN, a CW and GWF outperform every single class.
If all classes were equal at the highest gear levels then we would not see LFG flooded with demands for GWFs and CWs, along with the odd DC.
CW<-GWF<---DC<
HR<
TR/GF
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Look at the buffs GF are getting for pve. They will be very desirable. GWF's (and i have a gwf too that I played a lot when GF was in the toilet) will still have a role: DPS and offtank. They get the 50% damage buff, combat advantage, etc the GF gets. With KV runnin, you won't notice the reduction in your unstoppable.
The problem was, when GWF was buffed/GF nerfed, the GWF obsoleted the GF. Don't argue, I am sorry but it is 100% true. So instead of GWF being a viable addition to the team, it replaced the GF. Now GWF's are in a good spot. They are very tanky still, and do good damage still. Now i think you will see what was originally intended... GF's AND GWF's in a group being viable.
I know on my GF, with the changes, I will love a gwf in the party. More damage, help tanking if need be, and he will be standing in red to fuel my AP/party AP gain. When I load my GWF, I will like a GF in party. 50% damage bonus, and I take less damage? Yes please! Who doesn't like to see huge orange numbers pop up? My CW? Awesome, the GF has agro so I don't have to run around. Yes my damage is nerfed, and my control, but the GF takes that slack.
Can you still stack CW's and GWF's and maybe a DC? Sure, the buffs are NOT that bad to make that unviable. Groups that were doing that were overgeared anyways... that doesn't change. This just makes the "trinity" path ALSO viable.
Comments
Haha. Well sorry to disappoint but I am not a TR (and I only just got to lvl 60 as an HR). I am also not saying GWFs needed a nerf because I feel something else should be on top. The fact that it is everyone's first reaction is a bit appauling. GWFs needed a decrease in power because it was needed. Not because you were on top. So did CWs for that matter. Which was why they developers are doing just that. Was it extreme? Probably. But you cannot deny that a change was necessary.
That last bit you said "Basically you can go dps and die, or not die and have no dps... whoopee doooppie doo.. no thanks." That is the choice every one makes when picking a class. You pick a CW, HR or TR and you do amazing control/ dps but you have low defense. You need to play smarter to earn your kills. Or you can play a DC or GF. Your dps is very low but you (should) be able to survive longer under larger stress due to survival tools. GWF is the only class that can do it all. High DPS and very high survivability.
Coming out of open beta, they were middle of the pack dps and moderately high survivability. They were the least played class because they didn't have a defined role. Why bring a GWF in a group when you can just add another dps class or another DC. Then to add insult to injury, they couldn't tank as well as a GF so that was out. So the developers buffed them. Now they could do everything and do it better than just about everyone. Is that really fun? Is that really an ideal and balanced system? No.
For ToD, the developers are giving the GWFs a choice. Either dps and have the same drawbacks as everyone else. (Actually they will have better defense than most dps classes) or sacrifice some dps and tank. (They will have much better dps than a GF and have defenses that are as good as them as well.) Now you have to choose a defined role. If every other class can do it and survive. So can the GWF.
The question is not to be the "top dps class." My argument is also valid for the rogue. right now the "melee dps" is the most exposed. and he is the most exposed becouse he has the best resources utilities? no, because of "superdamage". "super" in comparison to what?
the parameter that we are currently "shard of 3.5 seconds prone".
one cw / gwf, in high gear, exploding the universe is result of dungeons "blue gear". a "3.5 sec prone cw" is something that is independent of the value of your gear.
4 cw = infinity prone (14sec condown). if the time has increased, then 5 cw solve this problem(and THAT is the infinite cicle). by the whay, anny other defensive combination under the gear it is, can overcome this. cw should be "class to be protected."
Now to the point: assuming a "mixed party" if you takes a gwf (module 4) you do not expect anything from him, and should even protect him.. what he has is damage. this compensates for the damage that the cw puts on the table? And Tell passing; that will be the end of everything, the gwf be doing more damage than the cw?
obviously you can argue "nothing is definitive"; what we have is a projection and the projection is absurd. anyway, it is impossible to argue that these changes are "a synergy / balance desire" and not a desperate response to angry players.
ps: when we asked one projection - module 3 feedback - the dev told us that we should not look for the cw why the class was out of line. then if 3.5 seconds is the new line, I hope my ibs "one hit ko." gwf just have dps now. no stealth, no dodge, no broken iv, no super control. JUST DPS.
ps2:I need to type my message in "google translator" and then fix the google translator. noooooooooo idea how it should be badly written.
I kind of feel like the whole of class balance is being leveraged against fully leveled and geared endgame characters only. New and mid-progression players will either be confused at why they've suddenly all turned into glass, cannon spec'd or no, or have a misleading impression of the class' role, given the lack of innate survivability without the capstone feat.
If the class is going to be reliant on Sprint for survival, I hope they also plan to either increase stamina regen or decrease stamina usage.
You've really hit this right on the head. I remember leveling with the 25-50% and at some points I was still spamming potions like mad.
It seems like all of these balancing acts are being done based upon endgame GWF PvP. Unstoppable was perfectly fine for PvE, at any level, so was Sprint for that matter.
Making these changes work will be a matter of getting Sprint right. For the record, I do like what the changes say, they want to give the class more opportunities for proactive skill and less reliance on the passive-like Unstoppable. At some point, they made stamina drain much quicker to prevent sprinterupts and twitch-shifting, which was fine, but if we're going to rely on Sprint now we need to it to be more precise like it used to be.
Even with 5/5 in the Sprint heroic feat, some stamina gain from boons and artifacts, I still can only twitch-sprint 5ish times. That's just not going to cut it. A normal, average sprint drains about a third of our bar if not more... Its just not enough considering its not even a true immunity. Not to mention our cutbacks on gap-closers will require more sprinting for offensive purpose leaving us vulnerable for defensive situations.
Sprint is the key equalizer in the big-time Unstoppable nerf and I'm just not satisfied with where its at right now.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I think it's great GF is finally been given some attention , I would suggest giving them more AoE damage and keeping their single target damage the same so the pvpers don't cry . CW's get no sympathy from me . You want to know what a true tank is ? , its a CW with a LS of 1700 that can do 20k+ in damage against a mob of 15 held in singularity . I've watched a CW guildie crit for 176k with a magic missle because he can stand back from the boss and build dot while the GWF or GF engages it..and you think unstoppable is too much . Mod3 cut most GWF's damage by 25% and its still not enough , now you want us to stay out of melee and let those with dodge tank bosses..I give up .
However, threat is still a non-issue in PVP which turns these changes into PVP nerf. THAT is the core of the problem that they need to tackle. They've tried to get around it with a million changes to Mark, but threat needs to have some function to it in order for these changes to make sense.
If they took away LS, The class would have been perfectly balanced for PvE (fixed roar for PvP)... So now what do you have? spec for a sentinel, sacrifice damage to be tanky (alot of damage)..... or spec for a SM, be forced to sacrifice a lot of damage, just to survive drop power, stack LS, drop power boons/feats use healing ones.
That may not be too obvious for 18kGS ++ characters at the moment, but there is no content for that level of gear, and to be honest, with that kind of gear score you could let a 3 year old spec the char and still do fine in t2 content.
I think one big mistake the devs do is to make changes to one class to bring it "in line with other classes". But the point is, the gameplay is different. A GWF is a melee class with no stealth or real ranged attacks, or damage-negation moves. Their gameplay mechanic was to close gaps with sprint and rely on Unstoppable, timing it correctly in PvP and PvE, to create a window of opportunity to pressure the opponent and recover/ tank. The enemy needed to concentrate on damage when the GWF was out of Unstoppable and avoid/ defend while the GWF was big and red.
Determination gain needed a fix to make it the same on any build (% of total HP lost instead of x amount of HP to do not favor monster-HP tanks) and make unstoppable not spammable.
Instead they changed the class and tried to make it kind of a "TR with a big weapon and no stealth". Except for the fact that the new sprint does not negate damage and ITC is way better than a 10-20% reduction Unstoppable...
They also got rid of our prones, nerfed the hell out of Takedown and Roar (on top of the fixes Roar needed, but the rooting effect was never an issue...), and made the IV path useless. Then they buffed flourish (needed), but with all the other nerfs put together what they left was a swordmaster path with a very slow and easily dodgeable/negated move (flourish) which is the only way to land another slow and easily dodgeable move (takedown) which could be barely enough to land another slow and very easily dodged move (IBS).
Basically the old GWF that could be kited by CWs/ TRs, plus more nerfs to make it harder for it to survive and land a hit.
It will be funny to see how a GWF will be able to handle the current HRs, perma TRs and even CWs.
Sprint can either be used to close the gap or defend. One or the other. You use it to close the gap, then the enemy teleports/ dodges and attacks. You then go Unstoppable, which is quite weak unless you are a sentinel. So you already took damage while sprinting and you keep taking damage when in unstoppable. Then you try to land your "stuns" and pray the enemy is cced for long enough to land IBS or else you're gonna deal chip damage. Expecially on CWs/ HRs/ TRs with G/Pbarkshield.
Just hope they realize that nerfing the ability to land the hits AND the survivability altogether, so deeply, is a dangerous move. Expecially when you have such powerful HRs and such permastealth TRs still making the most difference in PvP domination with their ability to troll points for long periods of time against many enemies.
PvE can be tweaked with dungeon/ mob design changes. Ripping the gameplay mechanincs of a class to shreds and try to transform it in something else, on the other hand, is another thing. It's a very dangerous move and affects both PvP and PvE.
GWFs are being redesigned from the ground up. And despite what the whining bunch says, they are not the current PvP kings. HRs and TRs are still way ahead.
Just hope after these nerfs they'll be done with us.
I've been on the test shard a lot testing the changes.
Subject "B" - sorry, but it is too big...
Subject "A - and this little poster?
Subject B - ok, this is small then you can.
25-50 unstoppable (15-30 my ******). and damage boost to compensate iv / control.
The way dungeon dynamics currently work is CW>GWF>HR/DC>GF/TR
How it should work is DC/GF should ALWAYS make your dungeon runs easier, these are support classes and the majority of players are going to chose DPS classes. HR/GWF should be aoe damage (HR range, slight party buffs, better damage across a widespread area. GWF possible main tank, offtank, better survivability, heavy damage on closely packed mobs). CW should be CONTROL with moderate damge. TR/warlock single target damage that far outshines the other classes.
Anyway, my thoughts on the matter, don't know if mod 4 is going to bring true class balance for PVE(kinda doubt it).
I play TR/CW/GWF. This is based entirely on the fact that I like stealthy/mobile classes first and foremost/magic and wizardry second/something with a big f'ing sword third(love Berserk). Oh and I dislike HRs intensely, for no justifiable reason. If we see them as the top PVP and PVE class in mod 4 I'm gonna poo myself, and then probably quit the game.
What i'm getting at is this - what's coming for GWF is pretty bad, but it could be oh so much worse.
The group dynamics are skewed because we outgear all of the current content. YOU don't see 11k/12k GWF "glass cannons" running in t2 dungeons, they wouldn't even survive the trash mobs. much less the bosses. Most GFW don't even start going glass until they have full AoW gear...You know, the gear dropped in T2? so yea....
I am so sick of hearing how OP we are in PvE- simple fact is when you out gear the content, DPS/H don't need heals and or tank-age...
Wish some of you people would take on some dungeons where the highest GSed GWF/CW is 11k, but alas ya'll won't, when you roll an alt, i'm sure its on the guilds coattails to gear it up too.
100% correct. I feel like a hero for having achieved my t2 in beta/módule1 (no super exploit guild)... and now I have to read "gwf is the easy mode".
Irony is, with mod3 there were already changes but they werent very well planed. Instead of keeping the amazing debuffs student of the sword gave and moving deep gash just deeper into destroyer tree, they twisted all things around, bugging feats again and making gwf destroyers a super-burst-dmg class in pvp. But with lower dps in pve.
Sometimes I just cant understand what the devs are thinking with those changes :-(
pathfinder
10/10 would reroll
You are correct! However the same could be said for the sword and shield Fighter having less survivability and damage mitigation then the 2 handed Sword wielding fighter. Its funny the GWF complains about doing less damage using the GF paragon, yet you hear no complaints about being a better tank with a 2 handed weapon then the Paragons original class with a Sword and Shield.
hy·poc·ri·sy
hiˈpäkrisē/
noun
noun: hypocrisy; plural noun: hypocrisies
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
*looks back in his time machine and sees a posting date of June 24th, 2013*
Yes, yes you are! *slow clap* Nice one ace!
Yes, yes I am... Thank you very much for acknowledging the obvious! :cool:
You must have the wrong GWF here buddy... I honestly cannot remember a post where I directly complained about anything. Am I happy with every change? Nope. Though at worst I'd say, "Well I think XYZ might be rough, but like always I'll adapt and keep playing!".
Now, if we want to mention someone who likes to complain, might I suggest using a mirror?
Either way... Have a wonderful day, and happy gaming!
They both have merits, and much more striking merits after the changes go into effect.
Destroyer deals a lot of damage.
Sentinel takes a lot of damage.
Iron Vanguard allows you to close gaps slightly better, even though Threatening Rush isn't what it used to be.
Swordmaster has a higher damage side.
For Destroyer, I'd probably say go Swordmaster.
For Sentinel, I'd probably say go Iron Vanguard.
Either way, those are not final answers and a lot of testing still needs to be done...
Poor game mechanics makes GWFs better tanks. Lifesteall being the main culprit. Without LS a paingiver GWF would suck as a tank, I would know I have the bare minimum, and I'm the last tank GWF you'd want in your group.
Skills were right on par for the class already. Destroyers = lack of survival - The more survival you aimed for, the more of a wet noodle you start to get. Problem was that one game flaw made the class work either way.
You can't have it all man! I have no problem with a 2 handed weapon doing more damage in the IV path, but you better be way more squishy too because of the same underlying reason.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This is the truth, whether you want to admit it or not.
I have both a GF and GWF at an equal gear level, in fact my GF has higher levelled artifacts and enchantments, and the truth is my GF is outperformed by my GWF in every way. You cannot deny that CWs and GWFs outperform every other class at equal gear levels. Whether it is 10k in your first T1 or 15k+ in VT/MC/CN, a CW and GWF outperform every single class.
If all classes were equal at the highest gear levels then we would not see LFG flooded with demands for GWFs and CWs, along with the odd DC.
CW<-GWF<---DC<
HR<
TR/GF
That wasn't a complaint good sir, that was a simple statement of fact.
Not disagreeing here, simply stating that's on the Devs to provide to the player base... I simply work with what's given!
Aside from that, the changes are being made so we'll adapt as necessary, it's evolution baby! :cool:
GF are Not a second choice after GWF!! -why do you not understand ?!
No matter, if they reduce GWFs DR to zero or defence or survival or they nerf GWF to the death!
No one would need a GF, Instead of GWF.
it will be Nothing Chance for you!
Before they take a GF on a regular party,
they would still have a better choice with all the other classes.
like CW HR/TR even DC
For NW is GF a Passiv class
Learn to live with it!
[you want have a great time play with your guild members that's all]
The problem was, when GWF was buffed/GF nerfed, the GWF obsoleted the GF. Don't argue, I am sorry but it is 100% true. So instead of GWF being a viable addition to the team, it replaced the GF. Now GWF's are in a good spot. They are very tanky still, and do good damage still. Now i think you will see what was originally intended... GF's AND GWF's in a group being viable.
I know on my GF, with the changes, I will love a gwf in the party. More damage, help tanking if need be, and he will be standing in red to fuel my AP/party AP gain. When I load my GWF, I will like a GF in party. 50% damage bonus, and I take less damage? Yes please! Who doesn't like to see huge orange numbers pop up? My CW? Awesome, the GF has agro so I don't have to run around. Yes my damage is nerfed, and my control, but the GF takes that slack.
Can you still stack CW's and GWF's and maybe a DC? Sure, the buffs are NOT that bad to make that unviable. Groups that were doing that were overgeared anyways... that doesn't change. This just makes the "trinity" path ALSO viable.