It's definitely a "money decision". Forcing people to leave their classes/characters to make and level new ones = More chances those folks will actually spend money on the game to re-gear. Think about how hard they're making it for newer folks/characters to get geared up. The enchantment system that now actually costs MORE to get a high ranking enchantment than it did before. Coal Wards that are BoA only. Etc, etc, etc....
All your enchantments can be removed for a very small gold cost. If your character is "ruined", you can just unslot them all and move them to a new toon. Hence, there is essentially zero cost associated with the enchanting system.
For some things I agree, but atm at PvE no one, A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y no one from other class can out-dps good CW. Not even close. And not only top shelf CWs, but even average ones! If HR or GWF out-dps CW, it means that the person can not play with its character or his/hers build sucks!
I asked my self many times same question like you -Why to change something that working? Not only here but in other games. Why the couple good things, that for some whiners are OP must be changed? And i reach this: At any game, there is a point where characters reach their top, nothing more for improvement and this characters are called OP. Its easy for Devs to change, nerf and est. characters, so game to be more challenging, but not the content. Most of the times this is happening, when some new content is released. And most of the time, biggest part of the new content is copy-paste from some old one, just with changes of its cover ( for example mass mobs, whole parts of some crypts and est). By doing this, when you play with your "changed" character, you have the feeling for something brand new and unique. Not at last place, if there is an idea for new, better equipment, combining with the new/old content the NERF is absolutely required. Otherwise there will be whining much more than this for CW or GWF.
By the way I played lot with "changed" CW. Ya its not like now, to nuke entire map, but still playable. The best thing for me - stupid singularity, that is used most of the times without any idea will be "nerfed" ... will open dozens of beers for that.
Before Module 3 - GWF was beast and out dps CWs/ if CW is good, not so easy, but still GWF did more damage/
After M3 only in your dreams. I dont know with how many really good CW you played, but Spell Storm /Thaumaturge CW are at the top of the chart all the time. And I can tell cuz I have CW and GWF all at max /enchantments R10 and est/ with 10-12 epic companions per character. No matter what I do, I can't beat atm with GWF for example a friend of mine with SS/Thaum CW, that play very skillfully.
Another example, in my party i play/played with GWF, that before module 3, did more dmg comparing with my CW all the time. This GWF have atm 18 epic companions, 10 artefacts lvl99-100, all R10, p. vorpal, g. Plaguefire, p. Thunderhead, all weapon sets and after module 3 he can't beat my CW no matter how he change build, companions or other stuff. So he stop playing till M4 is released. Don't tell me He can't play with GWF" cuz only other fighter that beat him before M3 is this one .. with not so big difference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EPHgecQCuA
Before Module 3 - GWF was beast and out dps CWs/ if CW is good, not so easy, but still GWF did more damage/
After M3 only in your dreams. I dont know with how many really good CW you played, but Spell Storm /Thaumaturge CW are at the top of the chart all the time. And I can tell cuz I have CW and GWF all at max /enchantments R10 and est/ with 10-12 epic companions per character. No matter what I do, I can't beat atm with GWF for example a friend of mine with SS/Thaum CW, that play very skillfully.
Another example, in my party i play/played with GWF, that before module 3, did more dmg comparing with my CW all the time. This GWF have atm 18 epic companions, 10 artefacts lvl99-100, all R10, p. vorpal, g. Plaguefire, p. Thunderhead, all weapon sets and after module 3 he can't beat my CW no matter how he change build, companions or other stuff. So he stop playing till M4 is released. Don't tell me He can't play with GWF" cuz only other fighter that beat him before M3 is this one .. with not so big difference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EPHgecQCuA
stop playing with your wallet and learn how to play instead...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
All your enchantments can be removed for a very small gold cost. If your character is "ruined", you can just unslot them all and move them to a new toon. Hence, there is essentially zero cost associated with the enchanting system.
Why in the hell would I want to do that?
I'm not even a spellstorm anymore, but at this point have left the game entirely. I have not seen any sign of them reversing course on ripping the spellstorm path to shreds and shoving everyone into the Oppressor path.
Why in the hell would I or anyone else want to spend money on a game where they're just going to destroy the next character I'm playing with their incessant, nerfs that solve nothing.
As I said, unless the devs reverse course on this, I'm walking away from the game entirely. I've had enough of this Nerfaholic BS that just ruins everyone else's fun.
Even though none of this affects me as a Master of Flame.
EDIT: This is supposed to be high level Epic level play. Not some 6th level party fumbling through encounters. We're supposed to be Archmages here... not some newbie level wizards. And destroying entire paragon feat tree paths and spells to make it that way is not the game I want to play.
you dont need a healer, because you avoid most of the damage or use lifesteal.
Untrue.
A DC is very good for debuffing making runs minutes shorter. And its extremely good by bosses and in laggy situation. Makes the job guaranteedly done!
Because of the damage nerf Lifesteal won't be that good neither.
stop playing with your wallet and learn how to play instead...
If u think that Hunter Ranger booster pack is "playing with my wallet" ... OK. If you think that making my PC high end gamers machine, can make me better player ... OK. If you think that paying for fast optical connection is something that make my characters stronger ... OK.
I opened my wallet for some small quantity of zen at the beginning/for mount for all characters at my account/ and HR pack . There is/was many ways to make legit huge amount of AD in-game, but you must start thinking in right direction. I feel pity for haters like you, that only can envy to others, but not to use their brains.
I don't know how good player I'm, but when enter the game I receive tons of invitation for parties /I have ~150 acc. in my friends list/.
Can only say - wish to all good luck after M4. Hope there to be enough good things, like content and new stuff to forget what is CW presently.
Ok, i'm going to try not to totally lose my sht here but alot of the comments in this thread REALLY <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off. First of all I have a 15k CW, so I am not "whining about another class". I would rate my skill/build as above average but not top tier. Recently worked shard into my rotation and experienced absurd improvements in pretty much everything i do.
CW is completely overpowered in PVE on live and if you do no recognize that fact you have your head in the clouds my friend. We are not just talking paingiver charts here, we are also talking top control and top debuffage.
The nature of the nerfs incoming is completely justified and likely to make the game as a whole more enjoyable and challenging for everyone, CWs included. The reason for the nerfs may well be to promote the new class - warlock, it doesn't really matter though because nerfing CW is going to create more space for EVERYONE else, GWF included.
CWs are not going anywhere in PVE. If the nerfs <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you off because a CW will no longer be 300% more effective than any other class in pve or that you can no longer single-handedly annihilate everything while completely ignoring group dynamics then your just *****ing.
CW damage could be reduced by 90% and they would still have a place in every DD group off the strength of their current debuff and control abilities alone.
The argument that nerfs will in effect "require more CWs to do the same job" is complete and utter garbage and a empty threat. Two CWs can effectively control any dungeon in the game, a really good CW can effectively control any dungeon in the game solo. Triple or quadruple stacking CWs is still going to be one of the safest ways to complete a dungeon, but it is no longer going to be the fastest, and that is going to do wonders for making space for other classes.
The argument that "nerfs are not needed, it's becuase we out-gear the content" is also utter rubbish. To a degree we out-gear the content yes, but that doesn't change class imbalance, it just makes it all the more glaring and obvious. You take a cw who has his stats in the right place, uses a steal time/COI/shard/sudden storm rotation and pulls it all together with skillful timing of eye of the storm and debuffs, he's going to make anyone in the same gear range look like a wet noodle, it doesn't really matter if your 8k or 18k.
To put this in perspective, I tend to run PK greed for delves. Before i worked shard into my rotation I found myself as 1st, 2nd, or third on the paingiver chart. Sometimes a GWF or HR would score higher than me, but rarely, and not by much. I did a CN run recently with a 8k power/pvorp/shard using CW, and he did QUADRUPLE my damage at the end of the run.
I think to a large degree we are missing the fact that CW is an established class and the ways in which it performs most effectively are widely known and recognized. I think the primary reason HR's are shunned in PVE is this- it's not that they are ineffective at PVE, but rather the number of people who have figured out how they work and demonstrated their effectiveness is much smaller than CW or GWF. This is also likely to be the exact same case with warlock.
Now, after saying all that I do have some beef with some of the specific nerfs.
#1 Increasing cast times made no sense, it just decreases the survivability of the CW while increasing the skill it takes to play them. These are factors that CW was never particularly overpowered in.
#2 Decreasing the target cap of sing. I would have much rather seen the target cap INCREASED while reducing it's dmg per target by 50-70%. The more CC the CW has and the more their damage is reduced, the less reason there is to stack them in a dungeon.
#3 Completely changing/eliminating debuff features. I saw no reason for this, however, an appropriate change would have been to reduce the effects of the debuffs by half while doubling the amount of time they remain active. This would in effect contribute more to party damage rather than only the CW rapidly chaining his attacks when the debuffs are active. This would also eliminate many of the advantages of stacking cws.
#4 Giving eye of the storm an ICD. In a game like neverwinter, where combat is fast paced anything with an ICD of over 15 seconds is only situationally useful or relegated to uselessness. A much better change would have been to keep the proc rate and duration but change the effect. Something like +20% crit chance and severity. Enough to be good, enough to be useful, but no longer gamebreakingly powerful and THE META.
#5 The complete gutting of the thaum and renegade feat trees. While I think changes were warranted, I would have liked to have seen the three feat paths be attractive for different purposes, and equally so. Currently Cw is strong in debuffage, control, damage. Why not have the feat paths represent and be attractive to players in these three options? Oppressor (control), Thaum (debuff), Renegade (damage).
I can tell you this and I have been doing a lot of testing on preview as well with TR, SW,CW and HR and a lot of these posts I am seeing about nerfs and having groups of this and that will be uber have been exaggerated. This module out of all of them I have experienced will bring a lot of balance to groups by making it much more desirable to have a multitude of classes not just one to clear a dungeon.
preview is still a work in progress and I can say, I would not want to be in higher tiered dungeons clearing mobs with just CW, as this type of play would actually gimp you.
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
If you are running PK and you shouldn't be suprised that a 8k power presummably daily CN runner CW guy is giving you millions in CN!
PK is the easiest dungeon that can be run. There are T1s which are harder!
Even if you can write "First of all I have a 15k CW" you probably didn't put much effort to make a case here!
CW is nerfed because SW had to be introduced!
"CWs are not going anywhere in PVE. If the nerfs <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you off because a CW will no longer be 300% more effective than any other class in pve or that you can no longer single-handedly annihilate everything while completely ignoring group dynamics then your just *****ing."
I am amused when other ppl think its nothing. To make CW what it is today required lots of testing, reading, doing ACT, doing the math! It's not just rolling a GWF, copying a build from someone and then just run to reds and clicking mouse like crazy.
Those guys will be probably performing also very well in mod4 even if they will be kicked out from their CWs and running with SW/HR/GWF...
If you are running PK and you shouldn't be suprised that a 8k power presummably daily CN runner CW guy is giving you millions in CN!
PK is the easiest dungeon that can be run. There are T1s which are harder!
Even if you can write "First of all I have a 15k CW" you probably didn't put much effort to make a case here!
I used PK as an example becuase i run It often, and thus it makes a good test. Before I started using shard I would see other CWs sometimes out dps'ing me by alot in pk as well. I have completed every epic dungeon multiple times, I run PK becuase i have 4 toon's I salvage on.
I've been playing my CW for around 8 months, I play her every day, and at this particular juncture in time I play her more than any other character. In my above post I'm pretty sure i demonstrated my knowledge of the class well enough that it should be OBVIOUS that I have a inside perspective.
....Too long .....
Anyway, that's my two-cents. End textwall/rant.
Hm interesting PoV ...
But let start from here "We are not just talking paingiver charts here, we are also talking top control and top debuffage."
First its normal to be at the top of Paingiver chart. We are AoE, mass and ets. dmg providers. But if you want to be top of the pops you sacrifice your survivability and you are dead with one slap behind your neck. We are top controlers, but we don't have anti-control skill, like GWF unstoppable, TR Impossible to catch and est. It points back to survivability and top dmg.
For debuff, sorry, but DC rules there!
"Recently worked shard into my rotation and experienced absurd improvements in pretty much everything i do.
...
I've been playing my CW for around 8 months, I play her every day,"
And you played 8 months every day without shard ... Don't tell me you try to rule PvE with master of flame ...
"CWs are not going anywhere in PVE. If the nerfs <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you off because a CW will no longer be 300% more effective than any other class in pve or that you can no longer single-handedly annihilate everything while completely ignoring group dynamics then your just *****ing."
Don't make me to do video for you to see, where is CW in M4 comparing from now in PvE. And CW is NOT 300% more effective than other classes, especially GWF, more like 25%-30%, if characters are with PvE setup only. You can not compare CW with TR and GF, not to say DC! Their job is totally different! Ask your self - Why GWFs will be nerfed also? And how may %, CW have less survivability comparing to all other classes? No one speaking about this, only how OP CW is!
"You take a cw who has his stats in the right place, uses a steal time/COI/shard/sudden storm rotation and pulls it all together with skillful timing of eye of the storm and debuffs, he's going to make anyone in the same gear range look like a wet noodle, it doesn't really matter if your 8k or 18k."
GS is nothing to compare, its sum of stats, doesn't matter if those stats works proper or they are overcapped. I will not explain from where comes monstrous dmg of CW, just want to say that steal time/COI/shard/sudden storm is NOT the right rotation to maximize the dmg.
Like kozi001 said, CW will be nerfed due to SW introduction and like I said many times before, cuz its easy to nerf one or two classes but not to set up the content and other 3-4 classes. Imo M4 = IWD with new outfit ... not icy but flamelike-dragonlike est....
If you are running PK and you shouldn't be suprised that a 8k power presummably daily CN runner CW guy is giving you millions in CN!
PK is the easiest dungeon that can be run. There are T1s which are harder!
Even if you can write "First of all I have a 15k CW" you probably didn't put much effort to make a case here!
CW is nerfed because SW had to be introduced!
"CWs are not going anywhere in PVE. If the nerfs <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you off because a CW will no longer be 300% more effective than any other class in pve or that you can no longer single-handedly annihilate everything while completely ignoring group dynamics then your just *****ing."
I am amused when other ppl think its nothing. To make CW what it is today required lots of testing, reading, doing ACT, doing the math! It's not just rolling a GWF, copying a build from someone and then just run to reds and clicking mouse like crazy.
Those guys will be probably performing also very well in mod4 even if they will be kicked out from their CWs and running with SW/HR/GWF...
I find it funny how people always talk about how easy it is to play the GWF class... CW is no harder. It all depends on the person. GWF's these days are so bad at dps/tank/surviving... it'll only get worse in mod 4. I don't remember the last time I saw a good gwf. CW's aren't far off.. I see a lot of baddies nowadays. And you can't just say gwf players are just copying builds etc, true, builds do help you play here and then, but it's the same with any class, not just gwfs. I totally lost my train of thought, lol, but anyways... CW and GWF are both easy classes with lots of build copies...
These nerfs will do nothing to make other classes more wanted. These nerfs will make sure that there must now be even more AoE classes in each group. It will take more than one CW to drop everything on the GWFs, with the lowered target cap. It will no longer be a choice made by min/maxers, it will be a necessity. DCs, TRs, and GFs will now have an even harder time staying alive with mobs running everywhere and staying alive longer.
I'm a CW, and the changes will make other classes way more viable. GF can now buff group damage 35%+ (into the fray) and you should see that in action. As far as dropping everything on the GWF's, well GF's taunt cap has been raised from 8 to 20 targets, and taunt effectiveness has been tripled. DC have an at will(BOB) that can buff power 800-1200+ every fight (a guild DC has 9k+ power so he buffs party power 1,350) and combine that with linked spirit you can give the whole group 2k+ power.
So just having one each of those classes played by someone that knows how to play and you'll do an absolute ton of damage, and all mobs are squarely on the GF so control is not needed as much.
Now, as mentioned before shard is completely useless..........I had 100k+ crits in guild groups(aided by the aforementioned DC buffs and debuffs) but on test I'm seeing TOP crits of 4,700+??? So something is bugged or the nerf is wayyyyyyy more than 60%. HOWEVER if you experiement a bit you can definitely find workaround spells and rotations that will give you even higher damage than pre-nerf-but you'll want a GF in your group hold agro because the solutions are close range which will eventually help survivability because you'll most likely be within astral shield's radius if you have a balanced group.
Of course the old gwf-cw faceroll groups will have some growing pains but that's supposed to happen.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Now, as mentioned before shard is completely useless..........I had 100k+ crits in guild groups(aided by the aforementioned DC buffs and debuffs) but on test I'm seeing TOP crits of 4,700+??? So something is bugged or the nerf is wayyyyyyy more than 60%.
There were bugs in Feats and passives that they've since found and corrected on preview, but not on live. Evocation increases AoE damage by 30%, not 15%. Chilling Presence increases damage by up to 36%, not 18%. Wizard's Wrath increased AoE damage by 12% per rank, not 3%. Also there's no more 15% Conduit of Ice debuff.
Combine fixing all of those with the 60% damage reduction and you can account for the damage output going into the toilet.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited July 2014
I'm a CW, and the changes will make other classes way more viable. GF can now buff group damage 35%+ (into the fray) and you should see that in action. As far as dropping everything on the GWF's, well GF's taunt cap has been raised from 8 to 20 targets, and taunt effectiveness has been tripled. DC have an at will(BOB) that can buff power 800-1200+ every fight (a guild DC has 9k+ power so he buffs party power 1,350) and combine that with linked spirit you can give the whole group 2k+ power.
So just having one each of those classes played by someone that knows how to play and you'll do an absolute ton of damage, and all mobs are squarely on the GF so control is not needed as much.
I was talking about CW nerfs. Those are GF and DC buffs. We'll still have to find GFs and DCs. There doesn't seem to be many of them.
as a GF i cant wait to start playing more pve in mod 4 and as a class that for a long time has not been needed in almost any dungeon it would be nice to finally come in and start playing them again, on live right now if any team is so kind to take me i just marvel at how i pretty much just run around and everything is dead before i get to it.
but all that aside we may finally see more group balance in pve come mod 4 so it is a bit exciting granted some of the CW nerfs are a bit over the top and im sure once mod 4 hits live a few months down the road when everything has settled they may go back and start reworking things again. considering they still need to give attention to DC's and TR's.
i cant remember the last time i saw a good TR in a dungeon unless they were some runner.
I was talking about CW nerfs. Those are GF and DC buffs. We'll still have to find GFs and DCs. There doesn't seem to be many of them.
If control is not needed damage will be.
I quoted you saying those changes wouldn't do anything to make other classes more wanted in groups and I showed you a few examples of how other classes were more viable because of the changes.
You said even more AOE in each group would be needed and I gave an example of how only one GF will be needed because of better threat and increased target cap for GF's.
There doesn't seem to be so many DC's and GF's because no groups want them: currently groups are going with just GWF/CW and all the other classes are playing alts-most likely GWF and CW alts.
These changes are great for balance because you'll have room for TR's and HR's now. The need for AOE CC won't be as necessary.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
as a GF i cant wait to start playing more pve in mod 4 and as a class that for a long time has not been needed in almost any dungeon it would be nice to finally come in and start playing them again, on live right now if any team is so kind to take me i just marvel at how i pretty much just run around and everything is dead before i get to it.
but all that aside we may finally see more group balance in pve come mod 4 so it is a bit exciting granted some of the CW nerfs are a bit over the top and im sure once mod 4 hits live a few months down the road when everything has settled they may go back and start reworking things again. considering they still need to give attention to DC's and TR's.
i cant remember the last time i saw a good TR in a dungeon unless they were some runner.
I'll have to show you my GF and TR, as i'm effective in dungeons on both of those character as well as any other. As tank you have to be the leader of the group and just run ahead of everyone, and just jump into mobs, your group will arrive not long after, and by then you'd already have aggro. The "uselessness" of GF's in live server is exaggerated, they are viable as it is, they just aren't wanted because the group goes through dungeons a bit slower with one in the group. But come mod 4 we should be doing a lot more damage, and if not that, we'll be giving our group tons more damage potential so the run should be faster, and tanky will be even easier so there's that.
I quoted you saying those changes wouldn't do anything to make other classes more wanted in groups and I showed you a few examples of how other classes were more viable because of the changes.
You said even more AOE in each group would be needed and I gave an example of how only one GF will be needed because of better threat and increased target cap for GF's.
There doesn't seem to be so many DC's and GF's because no groups want them: currently groups are going with just GWF/CW and all the other classes are playing alts-most likely GWF and CW alts.
These changes are great for balance because you'll have room for TR's and HR's now. The need for AOE CC won't be as necessary.
There are many DC's and GF's, just atm they're being used for leadership only, lol.
I find it funny how people always talk about how easy it is to play the GWF class... CW is no harder. It all depends on the person. GWF's these days are so bad at dps/tank/surviving... it'll only get worse in mod 4. I don't remember the last time I saw a good gwf. CW's aren't far off.. I see a lot of baddies nowadays. And you can't just say gwf players are just copying builds etc, true, builds do help you play here and then, but it's the same with any class, not just gwfs. I totally lost my train of thought, lol, but anyways... CW and GWF are both easy classes with lots of build copies...
I fully respect the "PVE" Gwf players who makes the GWF builds/threads doing the hard work or doing amazing dungeon runs.
Unfortunatelly for me lots of people in my guild and in my surrounding are rolling a GWF for pvp and then trying to run dungeons PVPish...Their biggest problem that is the new gear set good for pvp and not how to farm something faster. Its maybe just my bad experience.
In mod2 it was a problem to find a decent one I had to roll a Gwf myself. In mod3 it wasn't a big problem. Dungeons became easier.
I quoted you saying those changes wouldn't do anything to make other classes more wanted in groups and I showed you a few examples of how other classes were more viable because of the changes.
You said even more AOE in each group would be needed and I gave an example of how only one GF will be needed because of better threat and increased target cap for GF's.
There doesn't seem to be so many DC's and GF's because no groups want them: currently groups are going with just GWF/CW and all the other classes are playing alts-most likely GWF and CW alts.
These changes are great for balance because you'll have room for TR's and HR's now. The need for AOE CC won't be as necessary.
You're right: I wasn't specific enough when I said "these changes" when I meant "these changes to CW".
We'll see how good GFs are. If mod4 is all single target fights, fine. Good for the single target players. They need it. But how is a TR going to replace a CW in a place like CN? Especially the lower GS groups. They'll be stacking GWFs instead. Buffs help players, not nerfs. If they want TRs in groups, they need to buff the TR for once.
Since when do HRs have trouble finding groups? I've been in many 3 HR groups.
I often look for GFs and DCS, but rarely find any.
Since when do HRs have trouble finding groups? I've been in many 3 HR groups.
I don't know. 1 Hr is good for the party because of their buffed dps in mod4 but I can't see how more than one HR benefits the party.
Must admit rare to see good HRs hard to find a good one!
They usually just aggro everything and all over the place.
With the Artifact weapon from the campaign CN may become extinct and the new dungeon on preview as of now has zero adds on all the bosses and very few mobs inbetween, making CW's while not bad, less optimal if you want to min-max your group. Honestly that's what I'm kinda scared of. I'm happy that they are finally doing better boss mechanics then "spawns a **** ton of adds" but what am I supposed to control as a CW then?
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited July 2014
HRs benefit the party the same way CWs and GWFs do: DPS.
Comments
All your enchantments can be removed for a very small gold cost. If your character is "ruined", you can just unslot them all and move them to a new toon. Hence, there is essentially zero cost associated with the enchanting system.
GWF can easily out damaged every cw.
Before Module 3 - GWF was beast and out dps CWs/ if CW is good, not so easy, but still GWF did more damage/
After M3 only in your dreams. I dont know with how many really good CW you played, but Spell Storm /Thaumaturge CW are at the top of the chart all the time. And I can tell cuz I have CW and GWF all at max /enchantments R10 and est/ with 10-12 epic companions per character. No matter what I do, I can't beat atm with GWF for example a friend of mine with SS/Thaum CW, that play very skillfully.
Another example, in my party i play/played with GWF, that before module 3, did more dmg comparing with my CW all the time. This GWF have atm 18 epic companions, 10 artefacts lvl99-100, all R10, p. vorpal, g. Plaguefire, p. Thunderhead, all weapon sets and after module 3 he can't beat my CW no matter how he change build, companions or other stuff. So he stop playing till M4 is released. Don't tell me He can't play with GWF" cuz only other fighter that beat him before M3 is this one .. with not so big difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EPHgecQCuA
stop playing with your wallet and learn how to play instead...
Why in the hell would I want to do that?
I'm not even a spellstorm anymore, but at this point have left the game entirely. I have not seen any sign of them reversing course on ripping the spellstorm path to shreds and shoving everyone into the Oppressor path.
Why in the hell would I or anyone else want to spend money on a game where they're just going to destroy the next character I'm playing with their incessant, nerfs that solve nothing.
As I said, unless the devs reverse course on this, I'm walking away from the game entirely. I've had enough of this Nerfaholic BS that just ruins everyone else's fun.
Even though none of this affects me as a Master of Flame.
EDIT: This is supposed to be high level Epic level play. Not some 6th level party fumbling through encounters. We're supposed to be Archmages here... not some newbie level wizards. And destroying entire paragon feat tree paths and spells to make it that way is not the game I want to play.
Untrue.
A DC is very good for debuffing making runs minutes shorter. And its extremely good by bosses and in laggy situation. Makes the job guaranteedly done!
Because of the damage nerf Lifesteal won't be that good neither.
Nice job!
How I like Winters bounty
I'd cut a ball off if you could outdps me... A well played CW will always outdps you, maybe your judgement on "well played" is a bit off...
If u think that Hunter Ranger booster pack is "playing with my wallet" ... OK. If you think that making my PC high end gamers machine, can make me better player ... OK. If you think that paying for fast optical connection is something that make my characters stronger ... OK.
I opened my wallet for some small quantity of zen at the beginning/for mount for all characters at my account/ and HR pack . There is/was many ways to make legit huge amount of AD in-game, but you must start thinking in right direction. I feel pity for haters like you, that only can envy to others, but not to use their brains.
I don't know how good player I'm, but when enter the game I receive tons of invitation for parties /I have ~150 acc. in my friends list/.
Can only say - wish to all good luck after M4. Hope there to be enough good things, like content and new stuff to forget what is CW presently.
CW is completely overpowered in PVE on live and if you do no recognize that fact you have your head in the clouds my friend. We are not just talking paingiver charts here, we are also talking top control and top debuffage.
The nature of the nerfs incoming is completely justified and likely to make the game as a whole more enjoyable and challenging for everyone, CWs included. The reason for the nerfs may well be to promote the new class - warlock, it doesn't really matter though because nerfing CW is going to create more space for EVERYONE else, GWF included.
CWs are not going anywhere in PVE. If the nerfs <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you off because a CW will no longer be 300% more effective than any other class in pve or that you can no longer single-handedly annihilate everything while completely ignoring group dynamics then your just *****ing.
CW damage could be reduced by 90% and they would still have a place in every DD group off the strength of their current debuff and control abilities alone.
The argument that nerfs will in effect "require more CWs to do the same job" is complete and utter garbage and a empty threat. Two CWs can effectively control any dungeon in the game, a really good CW can effectively control any dungeon in the game solo. Triple or quadruple stacking CWs is still going to be one of the safest ways to complete a dungeon, but it is no longer going to be the fastest, and that is going to do wonders for making space for other classes.
The argument that "nerfs are not needed, it's becuase we out-gear the content" is also utter rubbish. To a degree we out-gear the content yes, but that doesn't change class imbalance, it just makes it all the more glaring and obvious. You take a cw who has his stats in the right place, uses a steal time/COI/shard/sudden storm rotation and pulls it all together with skillful timing of eye of the storm and debuffs, he's going to make anyone in the same gear range look like a wet noodle, it doesn't really matter if your 8k or 18k.
To put this in perspective, I tend to run PK greed for delves. Before i worked shard into my rotation I found myself as 1st, 2nd, or third on the paingiver chart. Sometimes a GWF or HR would score higher than me, but rarely, and not by much. I did a CN run recently with a 8k power/pvorp/shard using CW, and he did QUADRUPLE my damage at the end of the run.
I think to a large degree we are missing the fact that CW is an established class and the ways in which it performs most effectively are widely known and recognized. I think the primary reason HR's are shunned in PVE is this- it's not that they are ineffective at PVE, but rather the number of people who have figured out how they work and demonstrated their effectiveness is much smaller than CW or GWF. This is also likely to be the exact same case with warlock.
Now, after saying all that I do have some beef with some of the specific nerfs.
#1 Increasing cast times made no sense, it just decreases the survivability of the CW while increasing the skill it takes to play them. These are factors that CW was never particularly overpowered in.
#2 Decreasing the target cap of sing. I would have much rather seen the target cap INCREASED while reducing it's dmg per target by 50-70%. The more CC the CW has and the more their damage is reduced, the less reason there is to stack them in a dungeon.
#3 Completely changing/eliminating debuff features. I saw no reason for this, however, an appropriate change would have been to reduce the effects of the debuffs by half while doubling the amount of time they remain active. This would in effect contribute more to party damage rather than only the CW rapidly chaining his attacks when the debuffs are active. This would also eliminate many of the advantages of stacking cws.
#4 Giving eye of the storm an ICD. In a game like neverwinter, where combat is fast paced anything with an ICD of over 15 seconds is only situationally useful or relegated to uselessness. A much better change would have been to keep the proc rate and duration but change the effect. Something like +20% crit chance and severity. Enough to be good, enough to be useful, but no longer gamebreakingly powerful and THE META.
#5 The complete gutting of the thaum and renegade feat trees. While I think changes were warranted, I would have liked to have seen the three feat paths be attractive for different purposes, and equally so. Currently Cw is strong in debuffage, control, damage. Why not have the feat paths represent and be attractive to players in these three options? Oppressor (control), Thaum (debuff), Renegade (damage).
Anyway, that's my two-cents. End textwall/rant.
preview is still a work in progress and I can say, I would not want to be in higher tiered dungeons clearing mobs with just CW, as this type of play would actually gimp you.
-Kymos
PK is the easiest dungeon that can be run. There are T1s which are harder!
Even if you can write "First of all I have a 15k CW" you probably didn't put much effort to make a case here!
CW is nerfed because SW had to be introduced!
"CWs are not going anywhere in PVE. If the nerfs <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you off because a CW will no longer be 300% more effective than any other class in pve or that you can no longer single-handedly annihilate everything while completely ignoring group dynamics then your just *****ing."
I am amused when other ppl think its nothing. To make CW what it is today required lots of testing, reading, doing ACT, doing the math! It's not just rolling a GWF, copying a build from someone and then just run to reds and clicking mouse like crazy.
Those guys will be probably performing also very well in mod4 even if they will be kicked out from their CWs and running with SW/HR/GWF...
I used PK as an example becuase i run It often, and thus it makes a good test. Before I started using shard I would see other CWs sometimes out dps'ing me by alot in pk as well. I have completed every epic dungeon multiple times, I run PK becuase i have 4 toon's I salvage on.
I've been playing my CW for around 8 months, I play her every day, and at this particular juncture in time I play her more than any other character. In my above post I'm pretty sure i demonstrated my knowledge of the class well enough that it should be OBVIOUS that I have a inside perspective.
Hm interesting PoV ...
But let start from here
"We are not just talking paingiver charts here, we are also talking top control and top debuffage."
First its normal to be at the top of Paingiver chart. We are AoE, mass and ets. dmg providers. But if you want to be top of the pops you sacrifice your survivability and you are dead with one slap behind your neck. We are top controlers, but we don't have anti-control skill, like GWF unstoppable, TR Impossible to catch and est. It points back to survivability and top dmg.
For debuff, sorry, but DC rules there!
"Recently worked shard into my rotation and experienced absurd improvements in pretty much everything i do.
...
I've been playing my CW for around 8 months, I play her every day,"
And you played 8 months every day without shard ... Don't tell me you try to rule PvE with master of flame ...
"CWs are not going anywhere in PVE. If the nerfs <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you off because a CW will no longer be 300% more effective than any other class in pve or that you can no longer single-handedly annihilate everything while completely ignoring group dynamics then your just *****ing."
Don't make me to do video for you to see, where is CW in M4 comparing from now in PvE. And CW is NOT 300% more effective than other classes, especially GWF, more like 25%-30%, if characters are with PvE setup only. You can not compare CW with TR and GF, not to say DC! Their job is totally different! Ask your self - Why GWFs will be nerfed also? And how may %, CW have less survivability comparing to all other classes? No one speaking about this, only how OP CW is!
"You take a cw who has his stats in the right place, uses a steal time/COI/shard/sudden storm rotation and pulls it all together with skillful timing of eye of the storm and debuffs, he's going to make anyone in the same gear range look like a wet noodle, it doesn't really matter if your 8k or 18k."
GS is nothing to compare, its sum of stats, doesn't matter if those stats works proper or they are overcapped. I will not explain from where comes monstrous dmg of CW, just want to say that steal time/COI/shard/sudden storm is NOT the right rotation to maximize the dmg.
Like kozi001 said, CW will be nerfed due to SW introduction and like I said many times before, cuz its easy to nerf one or two classes but not to set up the content and other 3-4 classes. Imo M4 = IWD with new outfit ... not icy but flamelike-dragonlike est....
I find it funny how people always talk about how easy it is to play the GWF class... CW is no harder. It all depends on the person. GWF's these days are so bad at dps/tank/surviving... it'll only get worse in mod 4. I don't remember the last time I saw a good gwf. CW's aren't far off.. I see a lot of baddies nowadays. And you can't just say gwf players are just copying builds etc, true, builds do help you play here and then, but it's the same with any class, not just gwfs. I totally lost my train of thought, lol, but anyways... CW and GWF are both easy classes with lots of build copies...
I'm a CW, and the changes will make other classes way more viable. GF can now buff group damage 35%+ (into the fray) and you should see that in action. As far as dropping everything on the GWF's, well GF's taunt cap has been raised from 8 to 20 targets, and taunt effectiveness has been tripled. DC have an at will(BOB) that can buff power 800-1200+ every fight (a guild DC has 9k+ power so he buffs party power 1,350) and combine that with linked spirit you can give the whole group 2k+ power.
So just having one each of those classes played by someone that knows how to play and you'll do an absolute ton of damage, and all mobs are squarely on the GF so control is not needed as much.
Now, as mentioned before shard is completely useless..........I had 100k+ crits in guild groups(aided by the aforementioned DC buffs and debuffs) but on test I'm seeing TOP crits of 4,700+??? So something is bugged or the nerf is wayyyyyyy more than 60%. HOWEVER if you experiement a bit you can definitely find workaround spells and rotations that will give you even higher damage than pre-nerf-but you'll want a GF in your group hold agro because the solutions are close range which will eventually help survivability because you'll most likely be within astral shield's radius if you have a balanced group.
Of course the old gwf-cw faceroll groups will have some growing pains but that's supposed to happen.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
There were bugs in Feats and passives that they've since found and corrected on preview, but not on live. Evocation increases AoE damage by 30%, not 15%. Chilling Presence increases damage by up to 36%, not 18%. Wizard's Wrath increased AoE damage by 12% per rank, not 3%. Also there's no more 15% Conduit of Ice debuff.
Combine fixing all of those with the 60% damage reduction and you can account for the damage output going into the toilet.
I was talking about CW nerfs. Those are GF and DC buffs. We'll still have to find GFs and DCs. There doesn't seem to be many of them.
If control is not needed damage will be.
I think we will have trouble finding CW's too after Mod 4.
but all that aside we may finally see more group balance in pve come mod 4 so it is a bit exciting granted some of the CW nerfs are a bit over the top and im sure once mod 4 hits live a few months down the road when everything has settled they may go back and start reworking things again. considering they still need to give attention to DC's and TR's.
i cant remember the last time i saw a good TR in a dungeon unless they were some runner.
I quoted you saying those changes wouldn't do anything to make other classes more wanted in groups and I showed you a few examples of how other classes were more viable because of the changes.
You said even more AOE in each group would be needed and I gave an example of how only one GF will be needed because of better threat and increased target cap for GF's.
There doesn't seem to be so many DC's and GF's because no groups want them: currently groups are going with just GWF/CW and all the other classes are playing alts-most likely GWF and CW alts.
These changes are great for balance because you'll have room for TR's and HR's now. The need for AOE CC won't be as necessary.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I'll have to show you my GF and TR, as i'm effective in dungeons on both of those character as well as any other. As tank you have to be the leader of the group and just run ahead of everyone, and just jump into mobs, your group will arrive not long after, and by then you'd already have aggro. The "uselessness" of GF's in live server is exaggerated, they are viable as it is, they just aren't wanted because the group goes through dungeons a bit slower with one in the group. But come mod 4 we should be doing a lot more damage, and if not that, we'll be giving our group tons more damage potential so the run should be faster, and tanky will be even easier so there's that.
There are many DC's and GF's, just atm they're being used for leadership only, lol.
I fully respect the "PVE" Gwf players who makes the GWF builds/threads doing the hard work or doing amazing dungeon runs.
Unfortunatelly for me lots of people in my guild and in my surrounding are rolling a GWF for pvp and then trying to run dungeons PVPish...Their biggest problem that is the new gear set good for pvp and not how to farm something faster. Its maybe just my bad experience.
In mod2 it was a problem to find a decent one I had to roll a Gwf myself. In mod3 it wasn't a big problem. Dungeons became easier.
You're right: I wasn't specific enough when I said "these changes" when I meant "these changes to CW".
We'll see how good GFs are. If mod4 is all single target fights, fine. Good for the single target players. They need it. But how is a TR going to replace a CW in a place like CN? Especially the lower GS groups. They'll be stacking GWFs instead. Buffs help players, not nerfs. If they want TRs in groups, they need to buff the TR for once.
Since when do HRs have trouble finding groups? I've been in many 3 HR groups.
I often look for GFs and DCS, but rarely find any.
I don't know. 1 Hr is good for the party because of their buffed dps in mod4 but I can't see how more than one HR benefits the party.
Must admit rare to see good HRs hard to find a good one!
They usually just aggro everything and all over the place.