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Please stop nerfing the DC and HR, it's killing playability - fix suggestions in post
doc4pez
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 4 Arc User
tl;tr: stop just taking away things from the DC and HR, actually balance them, and make sure their survivability skills actually work.
I love support type characters, always have and always will but it doesn't seem to be the case with a lot of people in this game.
When digging through the forums to see why the HR was getting weaker and weaker I noticed a lot of people complaining about how much aggro they were pulling and how split shot is unfair, and so forth. I also noticed that more than a few haven't actually played an HR based on their comments and chars listed in signatures.
The HR is built, or I should say was built, like rangers in actual AD&D - hybrid. Their role is to pull junk mob aggro so that the front line fighters don't have to worry about it. Their role is to also help protect the DC and CW. With all the tinkering that has been done to them they are practically unplayable. There are fewer and fewer level 60 rangers in the game.
With so few lvl 60 HRs in the game it's hard to get equipment. We all know that the AH is really just to get you the gear to get you to the places you can get the hardcore gear. The problem is if a HR wants to get the gear they need around 2mil AD to get it, and that's not even the best gear you can buy in the AH, when it's available.
Now many would tell me to just suck it up. Well that'd be fine except there are so many people complaining that HRs are overpowered cryptic keeps tweaking them. They've been tweaked so much now that I can't even play my lvl 60 HR with a 10k+ gear rating. A couple of hits and the HR is dead. I've even had soulforged and lifedrinker on him and have his skills set for more staying alive than damage.
The two biggest I've seen people complain about is split shot and fox shift. Split shot isn't anywhere near as powerful as CW AOEs and the aggro they pull and I don't hear anyone complaining about them. Enough said there.
Fox shift, I don't think people realize that fox shift is part of a melee build. The TR has a version of it that is supper powerful by comparison and, if using the right build, can be pulled off at a 1:3 ratio. One TR daily to three HR encounter. Plus, the TR's version will chase the mob across the battlefield where a mob can just step out of the way of a fox shift.
Also, I don't think people are aware that the alt skill of fox shift is a buff that blocks all damage from one attack. That's right, all damage. In other words, the alt of fox shift has saved many front line fighters, CW, and DC's butts on more than one occasion. I suspect it's the people who are getting beaten by this skill in PVP that are crying the loudest but that's just me listening to people complain about how an HR beat them. If you know how to counter an HR's attack, which you should learn if you don't, an HR isn't really that powerful.
There is a way to fix it.
People complain they are overpowered, then lower the dmg output of that of a TR, or maybe even a bit less, and give them the same defensibility that the TR has. In other words, make the defense, deflect, and skills designed to improve these actually work.
I used to love playing my HR. I even loved it after it start getting nerfed but the nerfing has gone to far. HRs are hybrids, make them work the way they should be ensuring their skills actually work and that their defense and deflection actually works. Do this and you'll find the real players of HR will be able to do what that char is intended to do. Lowering their defenses and weakening their attacks is only going to make it worse. Which is going to make people complain more and then the HR will get nerfed even more. Vicious cycle that is well on it's way to making an HR unplayable.
On a side note, why does the HR gear cost so much in the HR? My guess is because almost no one wants to play them anymore. I know cryptic can't control the AH, that's up to us. Let's start making the prices of HR gear more reasonable.
Now to the DC.
I have no idea why people claim that the DC is overpowered. We have the lowest damage output, unless you've got a lot of AD and or time to farm gear [lots of farming and AD] and even then we usually place 3rd in damage, in the game and we draw the most aggro. I've pulled aggro from the aggro machine characters because I've had to go into full heal mode and no one in the party will pull aggro off of me. I die and the party starts dropping like flies. Boss resets and we have to start all over again with everyone blaming me for not healing them even though I'm dead because no one protected the healer. I'm used to that sort of thing. I've played healer classes in most MMOs I've played so I'm used to the frustrations caused by people blaming the healer for them dying because of their stupidity, or yelling at the healer because they're working on keeping the whole party alive and they think the healer is their personal healer, and the list goes on. If the healers are going to have to endure this type of thing then they should either go back to the way they were or at the very least increase their damage mitigation and stop taking it away.
We just had a maintenance period and I went to test in Dread Ring, what I do after every maint. to see what was impacted. Well the mobs I was able to stand up to yesterday now destroy my cleric using the same encounter and daily set up I had yesterday and the same gear. So after I died I went back knowing I was going to die again but I wanted to see the damage numbers I was taking. They were doubled from yesterday. Now this has been happening almost every maint period.
I don't know if the gear is getting nerfed, the DC and the HR are getting nerfed directly, or their powers are getting broke in the maint. Whatever it is we need to be aware of it and hope that it's not deliberate. Because if it is deliberate then two classes are getting destroyed. If it's because people are complaining then those people complaining who haven't played an HR or DC should go play them and see how hard it really is to play them. The HR and DC are not stand there and smack your opponent type classes. They have to be aware of positioning, aggro, who needs their help and so forth.
Fix the broken skills and do a real balance and you'll see a lot better party mix and a lot better dungeon runs; at least by the people who play them for the way they are meant to be played.
P.S. yes I know most of the other classes have bugs in them as well but I've played every class, not always my own char [friend's chars] and the bugs in those classes aren't devastating the playability of the classes, just making it a pain in the butt.
Well I've said my piece, got it out of my system, hopefully Cryptic will take a look and they'll at least get some ideas for balancing instead of nerfing.
I love support type characters, always have and always will but it doesn't seem to be the case with a lot of people in this game.
When digging through the forums to see why the HR was getting weaker and weaker I noticed a lot of people complaining about how much aggro they were pulling and how split shot is unfair, and so forth. I also noticed that more than a few haven't actually played an HR based on their comments and chars listed in signatures.
The HR is built, or I should say was built, like rangers in actual AD&D - hybrid. Their role is to pull junk mob aggro so that the front line fighters don't have to worry about it. Their role is to also help protect the DC and CW. With all the tinkering that has been done to them they are practically unplayable. There are fewer and fewer level 60 rangers in the game.
With so few lvl 60 HRs in the game it's hard to get equipment. We all know that the AH is really just to get you the gear to get you to the places you can get the hardcore gear. The problem is if a HR wants to get the gear they need around 2mil AD to get it, and that's not even the best gear you can buy in the AH, when it's available.
Now many would tell me to just suck it up. Well that'd be fine except there are so many people complaining that HRs are overpowered cryptic keeps tweaking them. They've been tweaked so much now that I can't even play my lvl 60 HR with a 10k+ gear rating. A couple of hits and the HR is dead. I've even had soulforged and lifedrinker on him and have his skills set for more staying alive than damage.
The two biggest I've seen people complain about is split shot and fox shift. Split shot isn't anywhere near as powerful as CW AOEs and the aggro they pull and I don't hear anyone complaining about them. Enough said there.
Fox shift, I don't think people realize that fox shift is part of a melee build. The TR has a version of it that is supper powerful by comparison and, if using the right build, can be pulled off at a 1:3 ratio. One TR daily to three HR encounter. Plus, the TR's version will chase the mob across the battlefield where a mob can just step out of the way of a fox shift.
Also, I don't think people are aware that the alt skill of fox shift is a buff that blocks all damage from one attack. That's right, all damage. In other words, the alt of fox shift has saved many front line fighters, CW, and DC's butts on more than one occasion. I suspect it's the people who are getting beaten by this skill in PVP that are crying the loudest but that's just me listening to people complain about how an HR beat them. If you know how to counter an HR's attack, which you should learn if you don't, an HR isn't really that powerful.
There is a way to fix it.
People complain they are overpowered, then lower the dmg output of that of a TR, or maybe even a bit less, and give them the same defensibility that the TR has. In other words, make the defense, deflect, and skills designed to improve these actually work.
I used to love playing my HR. I even loved it after it start getting nerfed but the nerfing has gone to far. HRs are hybrids, make them work the way they should be ensuring their skills actually work and that their defense and deflection actually works. Do this and you'll find the real players of HR will be able to do what that char is intended to do. Lowering their defenses and weakening their attacks is only going to make it worse. Which is going to make people complain more and then the HR will get nerfed even more. Vicious cycle that is well on it's way to making an HR unplayable.
On a side note, why does the HR gear cost so much in the HR? My guess is because almost no one wants to play them anymore. I know cryptic can't control the AH, that's up to us. Let's start making the prices of HR gear more reasonable.
Now to the DC.
I have no idea why people claim that the DC is overpowered. We have the lowest damage output, unless you've got a lot of AD and or time to farm gear [lots of farming and AD] and even then we usually place 3rd in damage, in the game and we draw the most aggro. I've pulled aggro from the aggro machine characters because I've had to go into full heal mode and no one in the party will pull aggro off of me. I die and the party starts dropping like flies. Boss resets and we have to start all over again with everyone blaming me for not healing them even though I'm dead because no one protected the healer. I'm used to that sort of thing. I've played healer classes in most MMOs I've played so I'm used to the frustrations caused by people blaming the healer for them dying because of their stupidity, or yelling at the healer because they're working on keeping the whole party alive and they think the healer is their personal healer, and the list goes on. If the healers are going to have to endure this type of thing then they should either go back to the way they were or at the very least increase their damage mitigation and stop taking it away.
We just had a maintenance period and I went to test in Dread Ring, what I do after every maint. to see what was impacted. Well the mobs I was able to stand up to yesterday now destroy my cleric using the same encounter and daily set up I had yesterday and the same gear. So after I died I went back knowing I was going to die again but I wanted to see the damage numbers I was taking. They were doubled from yesterday. Now this has been happening almost every maint period.
I don't know if the gear is getting nerfed, the DC and the HR are getting nerfed directly, or their powers are getting broke in the maint. Whatever it is we need to be aware of it and hope that it's not deliberate. Because if it is deliberate then two classes are getting destroyed. If it's because people are complaining then those people complaining who haven't played an HR or DC should go play them and see how hard it really is to play them. The HR and DC are not stand there and smack your opponent type classes. They have to be aware of positioning, aggro, who needs their help and so forth.
Fix the broken skills and do a real balance and you'll see a lot better party mix and a lot better dungeon runs; at least by the people who play them for the way they are meant to be played.
P.S. yes I know most of the other classes have bugs in them as well but I've played every class, not always my own char [friend's chars] and the bugs in those classes aren't devastating the playability of the classes, just making it a pain in the butt.
Well I've said my piece, got it out of my system, hopefully Cryptic will take a look and they'll at least get some ideas for balancing instead of nerfing.
Post edited by doc4pez on
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CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
killing HR with new path and profound armor is like practically impossible . it takes at least 2 players to kill them.
there profound armor is too OP, whenever they deflect they heal 2% of max health , thats like so OP , and i dont what power they use when they sit and meditate but they heal more than half health from that and u say they r nerfed. also there CC is most annoying in PVP.
load of bull****.
and i will not say anything about DC cause u expect DC to dmg , which is practically bull**** .
if u want ur DC to dmg get a enchantment like feytouched which will increase ur dmg , DC is a support class not damaging class.
Cleric: Marquis Elmdore - Current Main
Wizard: Iamblichus
Fighter: Anna the Titan
Barbarian: Anann Valkyrja
Ranger: Minerva Cory'phaia
Warlock: Suri Coralyne Reid
Guild: She Looked Level 18.
Alliance: Imperium
The OP talks about PvE and everyone responding talks about PvP. Here's something for you: There are people who don't give a **** about PvP.
@OP:
While I do agree that DC don't need any more nerfs and neither do HR (just a little rework) I disagree with basically everything you said in your whole post.
Split Shot is a terrible skill, because it deals too much damage. With split shot dealing that much damage, it becomes almost top priority for a HR and classes with an At-Will as their top-priority spell will have a huge problem trying to use anything else.
Why would a HR use Commanding Shot (long animation, single-target, low damage) when they could be spamming Split Shot (short aniomation, 5 targets, medium damage) instead? This limits the class in what spells they can choose because those need to compete with Split Shot.
Mod 3 was a step in the right direction in making the HR more competitive in PvE. It still needs a couple PvE centered buffs with a focus on group-play to get them to the same level of GWF, CW and DC.
Speaking of which...
From the situation you describe it appears that neither you, nor your group actually knows what the **** to do. You are 3rd in damage and pulling aggro by going into full healing mode? Your group dies because you did not heal them? Really? I don't think we're playing the same game...
Lower aim shot charge time increase dmg of encounter, give me some knockback effect so i can compete with cw.Some slow effect wich actually work.Wich new path skills are too good with new path one wich give 0,5 second(3 second with feat ) buff or one wich give 300 regen too low to see any effect.Maybe one wich give me total 260 life while gwf deal 1000 with normal attack.
And that's the problem with this poorly planned out PvP/PvE shared server system. What happens in both play-styles effects the other when it comes to supposed "fixes" or "balances". And it will just continue to go back and forth, back and forth, and back and forth, ultimately until people get tired of being FORCED to adapt over and over.
I've had to respec, and change gears, etc 4 times to maximize my potential in PvE, mostly due to PvP issues. And I know for obvious reasons, PvPers have to do the same when PvE balance issues arise and they change classes accordingly ....
NEWS FLASH CRYPTIC, THIS IS WHY MOST ALL MMOS HAVE TO SEPARATE SERVERS FOR PVP/PVE NERDS....or if they share the same servers, they only apply changes to the PvE/PvP instances/zones to balance that particular focus. (IE you zone into a PvP zone/instance GWF roar only has a chance to work or something, but works as intended in a PvE zone)
Yea they took this same problem into consideration, they also took into consideration of how PvP servers on most all games became dead on their own because the PvP balancing made the PvE part you had to do in game suck.
GF needs a lot of love, something needs to be done to bring them more in line with a GWF defensive build, something that might not dole out a truck load of damage but at least able to take punishment for more than 3 seconds before going down. If GF is going to be low DPS then please do something to bring their ability to take or mitigate damage up so that they can at least stand their ground even though they aren't really killing much. I think that should probably translate in that their block ability needs to have a change either making it take more so you can tank a bunch of adds or at least protect a squishy dps easier.
HR I don't have much experience with so i'm not sure how crazy their new path really is but i'd strongly encourage at looking at making classes brought up to their level not so much lowering them down. If HR has the ability to dole out damage and run away or the like then give DC and GF the ability to soak it up or counter other classes. It does make since that one class might have an easier time dispatching anotehr particular class, but as things are now, a couple of classes can dispatch nearly all the other classes in PVP and hardly anyone wants to group with GF in PVE. I still don't see many people asking for HR to join much in dungeon runs either.
As to the people who claim they've never seen anyone complain about DC being over powered, I guess you're not aware that the DC has been repeatedly nerfed since open beta when people were complaining that they did to much damage, even though they were still the lowest damage dealer in the game. Or you haven't read that their defense was too high so it was lowered. Just because you personally haven't seen it doesn't make it true. I've been playing on my original account since open beta, now those were the days of some bugs.
To the people who said my party doesn't know what the !@#$ the party was doing, do you have some sort of magic that lets you pick who you get in a pug with? Not everyone is in guilds and not everyone has the time, some of us have to work a lot for living, to build those relationships. We are the people who play pugs by getting in a queue and hoping for the best.
Cryptic doesn't use the same system that Star Wars uses where there are slots for each role, a brilliant idea in my opinion. Cryptic also isn't doing things the way they do in Star Trek. Neverwinter AD is a lot harder to get than dilithium. The effort to reward for AD is is significantly less by comparison. Yes, I know they're two different games developed by the same company but they are using an almost identical economy.
To the people who said that 2 mil for a decent set of ranger gear is ok, really? There's PVE gear and PVP gear. If the PVP gear was that high because the HR is destroying in PVP I can understand that, supply and demand. That doesn't justify PVE gear taking almost 2 mil to get.
But hey, I pretty much expected the responses I got but felt the need to express my opinion. Thanks to everyone who expressed their opinions civilly.
I guess if I want to be part of the in crowd I've got to go make a GWF, oh wait, people were complaining about how many of them there were too. Hmmmm...
HRs are much stronger than CWs right now in PvP. Whatever you mean by compete?
Simply put there are way too many adds in this game. REDUCE adds and add mechanics instead. I just solved every ones issues, without nerfs and wierd balances and junk.. OH MY!
Secondly, for PVE purposes only, a DC is ok, it was a little silly they nerfed a couple things and supposedly fixed others, just to have something , you know as a major impact as Astral Shield still not link LS right, so now no one is really benefiting from that buff, which is why I dropped it.
Overall, DC could use a little love in pvp as well, they support ok, but its a little over the top that they are reduced to so little incoming healing and when slotted for group play have like zero dps compared to every other class, they have no cc immunity to speak of and thier own CC skills are pathetic compared to that of a HR, TR, CW , GF and GWF (one root that bugs 20% of the time, 1 slow and one stun, that no one slots and a prone, that is a Daily only and about 1/4 of the time of a GWF/GF prone, which get this YOU can feat to give you like 1/2 the time of a GWF/GF prone.. YA!
Overall if your healing/buffing/debuffing only and you are supported by others you will be ok, which is about 1/4 of all pugs. Its the worst pugging class, which is frustrating to those that play that class.
Basically from what i understand - Cryptic released a few statistic way back and HR has the most population not correct me if i'm wrong but this basically translate to supply and demand thus the 2m gear. you will never see a DC or a GF complaining about their gear costing that much.
I've been lurking the forums a while and I've been playing off and on since open beta. The community attitude on many of the classes have shifted dramatically due to the relevance of their style of play and efficiency of completing endgame content. DPS is king in PVE for a game where mechanics don't necessitate the need for a turtle tank. Block is an evasion mechanic. Like all other shift abilities. However, it falls short when compared to GWF like you and EVERYONE agrees. I understand your annoyance that PVP changes affect PVE balance. In order for them to make it mutually exclusive (Make effects work differently in PVP matches and in the PVE world) it would probably take a monstrous overhaul of the coding.
GFs major gripe is the fact that their block is deficient when they are under constant fire and that their dps is lacking to be competitive for pve solo/party play and pvp a like. A lot of the gripes can be fixed with a change to shift mechanic akin to unstoppable or rather it would be the opposite of Unstoppable. When you hit tab you do Zero damage. To make up for that I feel that the guardian fighter should have a tremendous damage boost as your guard meter depletes. Up to 100% when block is under 10%. (50% increase when broken) This stacked with a higher block recharge would fix a few things most likely.
Something similar to the above change. Tab should be a "stance" change without a limit bar (like HR). In one stance your healing is buffed and damage is significantly reduced. You get the added Divinity changes to your at wills and encounters etc. In the other you receive a damage buff to all your spells and abilities (make it reasonable like +15-20%).
LOL DOnt make me laugh please. HR is currently the most Broke / OP class in the game as it is. If there is anything HR needs its a NERF!
HR can 1v1 anybody and kill anything no matter what gear
They have 6+ dodges.
a FULL HEAL daily (even if their not getting hit while casting) (tested this)
a At-will that hits for 20K.
Thorn ward which Consumes the ENTIRE point, so even if your a skilled player and try to counter it, too bad you cant. because you HAVE to stand on the point.
If there is anything an HR needs, its a Nerf. they do WAY too much Damage. Take WAY too little damage, and can 1v1 and survive against anything 1v1.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I feel this is a bull answer overall. The current meta of things favors only two classes. Yes you can still find groups as other classes. But unless you are a CW or a GWF you're success in getting groups is pitiful. DC has a reasonable chance for groups that don't feel they have the gear/skill to clear content as easily. All a HR brings to a dungeon right now is damage. Nature is useful, but it's overall impact is very low and you're still better off with a DC.
Far as this QQ on HR's in PvP. Their balance issue is with a set bonus. And they're not invincible. And it's overall only one build that takes full advantage of it. Which is a melee focused build. Ranged focus HR's are not as strong. Honestly if they wanted to hit this build while fixing other issues in the game. Make it so "increase incoming healing" abilities only count from outside sources. This would hit the CW/GWF meta as they wouldn't be able to regen/lifesteal as well. And would nerf the healing of HR's in their "annoying" pvp build. Which has a 20% increase to incoming healing in the build. It probably wouldn't fix these effects. But when I was leveling up my HR I couldn't think of a reason to take this Feat. I didn't think it'd increase my own healing on myself.
If Cryptic wants to show that they have plan to improve the HR's use in a group though balance. They should give a small preview. Instead of "here's a nerf until we figure out what to do".
DC - I'm not fully familiar with DC's. Mine is only 32 and I can't say I have much of a problem with them. But I think the issue is the lack of need of the trinity. Tank, healer, dps. Or in this game's case - Tank, support, dps. Dungeons need to reflect this better. Otherwise there will always be a meta of what's best. There just shouldn't be. And there's not enough classes that finding one of these rolls will ever be a chore.
There's just no substance to what is needed in a dungeon. All of them are build with the same idea. More challenge = more adds. I haven't done a boss fight yet where I felt the boss was the hardest part. On my HR generally the hardest part is controlling my agro so I can Aim Shot instead of having to kite random adds that spawned near me and my lifesteal pulls agro.
-Unavoidable damage that can be blocked by other players(tank)
-Unavoidable damage that can be absorbed/mitigated by a buffer/debuffer(support)
-CC immune mobs. Everyone is going to keep CC/AoE comboing dungeons as long as it continues to work 99% of the dungeon.
This is because of ONE BUILD and ONE SET.
HR is not broken under this as a class. This ONE combo is.
Can 1v1 anyone as long as they out play them. A HR in this build wont have as high of damage. As they put a lot of focus on this survivability. All we have is a good setup to avoid damage. Don't take damage very well. And we have very little CC.
Are you talking about our short range Shift? Ours takes 1/4 of our stamina bar. Half of what most other classes use. But it also goes half the distance. Pick up a few enemy targeted abilities instead of ground targeted. I know it's hard to think that maybe you'll need different abilities to fight other different abilities. But that's part of skill. Being prepared for the situation.
20k? You mean Aim shot? The 3 second channel that is fully stopped on any damage? Any. If you have Any ranged ability. This ability becomes useless. Also if you see a HR use this, they are probably Archery. Which means they wont that that ONE combo that you consider so OP.
Thorn Ward I can see being annoying. But it doesn't cover the whole point. The HR you call OP uses a build that does not favor ranged combat very much. Get another ranged player to join you in taking them down. You'll see a much higher success rate. Other HR builds will be much easier to kill.
The real problem is Dominion being 5v5. It forces a lot of 1v1. You cannot balance MMO pvp on 1v1. Yes some very skilled HR's can take on multiple enemies using this ONE build. But that takes some very strong skill. 1v1's are fine and fun. But there's no real possible balance. WoW learned this lesson a long time ago. Most WoW "clones" also took in this lesson from them. If there was a 10v10 dominion this HR builds would be much less effective. And there would be enough targeted CC on the other team to focus him/her down.
Honestly, Cryptic's to-do list must be huge.
Depends on what dailies we're talking about. I've had aimed shot crit on GWFs in unstoppable for like 2k. Whirlwind would do what- 20k?
Not to mention it gets disrupted by sneezes. I had aimed shot disrupted by ticks of zero damage. It's usually completely unusable since everyone is running around with dot enchants.
I'm currently not running with it slotted in PVP because I never get a chance to even use it once. So in that way, you're going to get much more use out of dailies.
Anyway, this thread is about HRs in PVE obviously. People need to learn to read. And HRs suck in PVE.
get pve set
stop talking HAMSTER
enjoy
This is from fuzzychaos13 who ofc is a gwf and lets summon his thoughs so far up...
-Gwf is to easy to kill and need a buff in survivability
-Roar is easy to avoid and does to little dam and need a buff
-Anybody that cant avoid gwfs ccs need to learn to play
-Anybody that dont understand how to kite a gwf during unstoppable need to learn to play
-Any hr gear withstanding who cant kill a gwf need to learn to play
-Any tr who cant kill a gwf need to read forum and learn to play
His trolling every single thread about how weak gwf are and how much other classes need nerfs his is very bright that one very bright indeed,........
with mod 4 GWF nerfs, GWF wont kill anything and ill probly die to anything